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So I played a friendly game the other day of 2v2 500 points each player so 1000 for two teams and I played as Black Templars and my teammate played as Dark Angels. Our opponents both played chaos. While making the list I realized that in order to have my smaller group be anything more than cannon fodder I had to go 1 point over the 500 point limit by giving them a heavy bolter. I asked the other team if it was ok but they said no. So i said screw it and just played 4 points under the limit. So w played the game and my team got destroyed. They fielded Sonic Blasters and Lascannons, I had two squads of initiates and neophytes, one of which had my Chaplain as HQ and one Dreadnaught with Krak missile launcher and twin linked las cannon. my teammat had mostly plasma. I knew from the start it was going to be a hard game to win but I thought the other team had a bigger army then 500 each. My teammate has the chaos dex and he did the math with their list and I got this message on Facebook:
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Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Slaanesh 80pts
2x Noise Marines w/ 1 Sonic Blaster 196pts
2x Havocs w 4 Lascannons 310 pts

Point Total: 586pts

But wait! There's more!

Sonic Blasters only have a range of 36 inches. Blastmasters have a range of 48 inches... so maybe Cramer meant Blastmaster when he was saying Sonic Blaster... easy mistake right?

Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Slaanesh 80pts
2x Noise Marines w/ 1 Blastmaster 250pts
2x Havoics w 4 Lascannons 310pts
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He was saying Sonic blasters have 48" range just to clarify. How would you react to so many mistakes(if they were innocent mistakes). I feel like that is just plain cheating, even if it was a friendly game. Because I am a firm believer that the Black Templars can be good and the Chaos players think they suck. Could this be him cheating so he isn't proven wrong. Also, no one in our little 40k group has beaten him before. I am challenging a rematch, same armies..this time we check each others math...how would you all react?

The list size is cheating, if that's actually what he ran. That alone, after telling you no for 1 point over for a heavy bolter, would be enough to never play him again. He built his list, he knew the points it was at.

It's not worth getting worked up - live and learn, move on. just don't play him again.

As they say, almost everybody cheats a little, almost no one cheats a lot. These discrepencies are pretty brazen, which means he's either of those very few people who is willing to go big with a deception, or he's really, really clueless. I'd guess that there are more people with no math skills whatsoever than big cheaters, so my initial guess would be the clueless, rather than the malignant.

There's a pretty easy way to tell, though. Play another game with him and insist that you have the chance to audit his list. If he says no, then he's a giant cheater. If you audit it and find that things are way off again, and he changes to be correct and then you catch him lapsing back, that means he's a giant cheater.

If you correct things and they stay corrected (not just over your game, but if you notice how he plays with others as well after that game), then he probably just has terrible reading comprehension and math skills.

Either way, a matter of pity rather than anger.

Sonic Blasters have 24" range

Blastmasters can vary between 36" and 48" depending on the frequency you select.

He's cheating imo, it sounds deliberate.

Not letting you off with 1 point is pretty bad especially when he is almost 100 points over the limit anyway! I have encountered minor cheating like my opponent changing difficult terrain to dangerous terrain when I'm about to enter it, but we settled it in the end by a simple roll of a dice.

Most of us use software to generate lists, that way you are pretty much safe from math errors. One of the veterans still makes up his lists on the fly though, and he was a couple hundred points over once, simply because he forgot to add up the points of his IG command squad and just added their chimera due to the funky way he scribbled over the numbers a dozen times. Things like that happen, just check his points the next couple of games, and refuse to play him if he keeps doing that. Even if your math skills suck, it's unlikely that you will always to math errors to your benefit.

I appreciate all the responses. I will do rematch and see how it goes. Also, if he did use blastmasters and was just saying sonic blasters he was still way over points. so either way it's just a lot of mistakes in one game

Yeah he's cheating. Unless his partner only fielded 414 points.

I agree with the others in saying play him again and audit his list. If you find errors again I'd hand him back his list and say "no wonder you're unbeaten...you're 90 points over", then refuse to play him.

I recently played a 15+ year veteran of the game that is known for making up his own rules. I know its my fault for playing him anyway but last week we matched up for a 1750 point vanilla marines vs blood angels matchup. He went to deep strike speeder #1 by rolling 2 scatter dice....no d6's and no marker where he was trying to deep strike. I asked him what he was doing. I thought he was practicing or warming the dice up or whatever people do with dice. He said he was deep striking and put his speeder on the hit roll. I asked him "what the F**K was that?" He said that's the way its always been done. I asked "what? during rogue trader era?" I informed him of the correct way to do it and he said "i placed my marker" (he didn't) and then added in "the hit dice stopped rolling first so i'll go with the hit." I told him it was the last time that would happen....he's a buddy of mine and knew with the build he was fielding I'd stomp him pretty bad. Even with his cheating and conveniently placing a mm speeder on the side armor of one of my vindicators, he rolled a hit and then rolled snake eyes to add to his 8 for ap. He got mad that his speeder did nothing. I told him karma hits cheaters back sometimes...not usually that fast but it sometimes catches back up to you. I laughed as my motf walked up and servo harness smacked his speeder to remove it from play.

His 2nd deep strike attempt with speeder #2 was better but still wrong. He rolled the scatter dice and 2d6 but no marker. I asked him where his deep strike marker was as he was going to place the speeder just shy of hitting difficult terrain. I told him to pick a spot and he must've been trying to eye ball the scatter distance....he guessed wrong. He placed his marker and we measured about 1/2 into difficult terrain. He rolled a 1 on the mishap table and the cursing started again. He quit after round 3. Half way thru round 2 I pulled out my copy of the blood angel codex just to check some of the things we was talking about. He wants a rematch this week and he's gonna get told before the game starts that at the first sign of cheating we're done playing.

I'd say audit your opponents list. It'll more than likely have errors. Ask him to fix it and check it again...he may be thinking you won't check it twice. If its error free on the recheck i'd agree with the others in saying he may just have comprehension issues and may need some help with list building. If there are erros a 2nd time I'd call him a cheater and refuse to play him. If you say he's unbeaten then I'd say its not a comprehension issue and he's a win at all costs player and needs to be avoided. You should only really have to be concerned with your own army and your own tactics and not worried about every single thing your opponent does through out the game.

 Icculus wrote:
Yeah he's cheating. Unless his partner only fielded 414 points.

I would be fine with that but my teammate only had 496 so by that rule, I should have been able to go 2 over


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
I agree with the others in saying play him again and audit his list. If you find errors again I'd hand him back his list and say "no wonder you're unbeaten...you're 90 points over", then refuse to play him.

I recently played a 15+ year veteran of the game that is known for making up his own rules. I know its my fault for playing him anyway but last week we matched up for a 1750 point vanilla marines vs blood angels matchup. He went to deep strike speeder #1 by rolling 2 scatter dice....no d6's and no marker where he was trying to deep strike. I asked him what he was doing. I thought he was practicing or warming the dice up or whatever people do with dice. He said he was deep striking and put his speeder on the hit roll. I asked him "what the F**K was that?" He said that's the way its always been done. I asked "what? during rogue trader era?" I informed him of the correct way to do it and he said "i placed my marker" (he didn't) and then added in "the hit dice stopped rolling first so i'll go with the hit." I told him it was the last time that would happen....he's a buddy of mine and knew with the build he was fielding I'd stomp him pretty bad. Even with his cheating and conveniently placing a mm speeder on the side armor of one of my vindicators, he rolled a hit and then rolled snake eyes to add to his 8 for ap. He got mad that his speeder did nothing. I told him karma hits cheaters back sometimes...not usually that fast but it sometimes catches back up to you. I laughed as my motf walked up and servo harness smacked his speeder to remove it from play.

His 2nd deep strike attempt with speeder #2 was better but still wrong. He rolled the scatter dice and 2d6 but no marker. I asked him where his deep strike marker was as he was going to place the speeder just shy of hitting difficult terrain. I told him to pick a spot and he must've been trying to eye ball the scatter distance....he guessed wrong. He placed his marker and we measured about 1/2 into difficult terrain. He rolled a 1 on the mishap table and the cursing started again. He quit after round 3. Half way thru round 2 I pulled out my copy of the blood angel codex just to check some of the things we was talking about. He wants a rematch this week and he's gonna get told before the game starts that at the first sign of cheating we're done playing.

I'd say audit your opponents list. It'll more than likely have errors. Ask him to fix it and check it again...he may be thinking you won't check it twice. If its error free on the recheck i'd agree with the others in saying he may just have comprehension issues and may need some help with list building. If there are erros a 2nd time I'd call him a cheater and refuse to play him. If you say he's unbeaten then I'd say its not a comprehension issue and he's a win at all costs player and needs to be avoided. You should only really have to be concerned with your own army and your own tactics and not worried about every single thing your opponent does through out the game.

That guy sounds like he shouldn't play anymore. And the problem is that this guy is the "rule guru" for our group. So now instead of taking his word for it I have double check every move which makes playing more of a chore than a hobby

I once observed what was if I recall a 1300 point game. Nids versus Dark Angels. The DA player had made little errors in the past, and when I asked his list he said something pretty far off. (Something like 3 terminator squads in reserves, as well as Belial, and he already had a deathwing knight squad, a land raider, and a bunch of devys on the board. I can't remember exactly, but it was similar.)
Since it sounded fishy I double checked his points... 300+ points over.
As a compromise he dropped one squad of termies from his list (it was turn one) and gave a bunch of upgrades to sone Tyranid models.

Umm, difficult terrain doesn't cause mishaps, does it?

pretty sure just dangerous. Dont play with him again. fixed.

 Glizzy6d wrote:
pretty sure just dangerous. Dont play with him again. fixed.

Not even Dangerous. Only Impassable. On a Deep Strike all Difficult Terrain counts as Dangerous Terrain, so instead of rolling a Mishap it should have been a Dangerous Terrain test. Given he rolled a 1, his Speeder would have been Immobilised, and I believe down a hull point although I'll need to recheck FAQs and the like to be certain, but still alive.

Impassible or...well obviously... lethal causes mishaps. The most common mishap is off the table or too close to enemy models (or landing on your own models for that matter). Not 100% sure but i imagine if you deepstrike next to a wall with a flat top you still mishap since you arent b2b, despite not being impassible or lethal "technically" - least thats how we always did it because its either that or half the unit was lost by materializing in the wall lol.

Forget when but one of the more recent FAQ's made it where only glances or pens remove hull points, simply getting stuck on terrain doesnt damage them. But isnt there a rule where skimmers that immobilize wreck immediately? or did that go away because i know thats why Tau vehicles in the old dex had landing gear.

As for the OP
If that was true, avoid those guys. A few points over happens a lot, i know my friends and i really dont care if youre 1-2pts over, but 86? someone needs to go back to math class in the 2nd/3rd grade and relearn addition lol.

Sure, it's not cheating. It's just bending or forgetting the rules unfairly in your favor.

Serious opinion? We're playing a game with rules. These rules are in books. We presumably have these books if we're playing the game, or we've at least pirated them (lol). Either read them and learn them, or don't play. Any deviation from this is probably cheating, if it benefits the offending player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:


Forget when but one of the more recent FAQ's made it where only glances or pens remove hull points, simply getting stuck on terrain doesnt damage them. But isnt there a rule where skimmers that immobilize wreck immediately? or did that go away because i know thats why Tau vehicles in the old dex had landing gear.

This is actually incorrect - immobilized results arising from failed dangerous terrain checks now degrade the immobilized vehicle by one hull point.

There aren't many ways to get that list under 500 without using malice aforethought.

The best I can come up with is that he forgot the heavy weapons costs on a unit of havocs, and forgot the cost of sonic blasters/blastmasters.

That'd make it 80+95+95+155+75 = 500.

Play him again and ask to audit his list, as others have said. If he doesn't let you, just play him, and have a clerk or other 3rd party watch and add things up.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Sure, it's not cheating. It's just bending or forgetting the rules unfairly in your favor.

Serious opinion? We're playing a game with rules. These rules are in books. We presumably have these books if we're playing the game, or we've at least pirated them (lol). Either read them and learn them, or don't play. Any deviation from this is probably cheating, if it benefits the offending player.

Yeah, but it starts becoming no fun when you have to memorize your own codex, your ally codex, the game rules and the two codices the guy who conveniently forgets and misreads his own army rules all the time is playing.

One point over is okay. Eighty-six is not. Adding twelve inches to your weapon range is not.

My best suggestion to you is to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt and assume it was an honest error on the first offense, don't assume malice until he tries to pull it again. Gently point out the points discrepancy if you can, and ask to see his list before the game. Warhammer is supposed to be a game of perfect information; if the other guy doesn't let you read his list or his Codex then he's at best guilty of bad sportsmanship.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Sure, it's not cheating. It's just bending or forgetting the rules unfairly in your favor.

Serious opinion? We're playing a game with rules. These rules are in books. We presumably have these books if we're playing the game, or we've at least pirated them (lol). Either read them and learn them, or don't play. Any deviation from this is probably cheating, if it benefits the offending player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:


Forget when but one of the more recent FAQ's made it where only glances or pens remove hull points, simply getting stuck on terrain doesnt damage them. But isnt there a rule where skimmers that immobilize wreck immediately? or did that go away because i know thats why Tau vehicles in the old dex had landing gear.

This is actually incorrect - immobilized results arising from failed dangerous terrain checks now degrade the immobilized vehicle by one hull point.

I was reading the rule book, but the rule book doesn't have the down and dirty on Chaos Noise Marines and how much the cost and how far their weapons shoot. Also this was unfortunately the first time i've played Chaos.

If you don't mind I have a related story

My Space Wolves vs Eldar
Never won a game because of those horrible Tau so I wanted to win this match. I fielded a predator with lascannons, logan grimnar with terminators and two squads of wolf guard. My friend had Eldrad Ulthran, guardians, dire avengers, swooping hawks and a Falcon grav tank. Started on a high because my predator took out the falcon first turn but when I shot at Eldrad he teleported out of view (strange). Then he used four Eldrich Storms and killed my predator and most of my wolf guard (2 left). The powers were used without a psychic test and didn't scatter. Second turn I teleported in my terminators who wiped out the guardians and than what was left of my army was destroyed by Eldrad.

 Cypherus wrote:
If you don't mind I have a related story

My Space Wolves vs Eldar
Never won a game because of those horrible Tau so I wanted to win this match. I fielded a predator with lascannons, logan grimnar with terminators and two squads of wolf guard. My friend had Eldrad Ulthran, guardians, dire avengers, swooping hawks and a Falcon grav tank. Started on a high because my predator took out the falcon first turn but when I shot at Eldrad he teleported out of view (strange). Then he used four Eldrich Storms and killed my predator and most of my wolf guard (2 left). The powers were used without a psychic test and didn't scatter. Second turn I teleported in my terminators who wiped out the guardians and than what was left of my army was destroyed by Eldrad.

This is the kind of situation you resolve by lobbing both your codices and your rulebook at his head.

Preferably open to the relevant pages explaining why everything he did was wrong.

You could also just drop the BYB on his Eldrad, permanently embedding him into the table as grim reminder to all cheaters.

This is the kind of situation you resolve by lobbing both your codices and your rulebook at his head.

And them hopefully your SW code rebounds and smacks you.

logan grimnar with terminators

Second turn I teleported in my terminators

SW terminators DON'T teleport.

There is a big difference to not reading some rules and blatantly 'forgetting' some though

Its a game of Little Toy Soldiers. Your opponent apparently gets some kind of "Life Valuation" by cheating at a game of Little Toy Soldiers to win.

You and your partner played fair, they didn't. /Shrug don't get worked up over it, point out their mistake, and don't play them again unless they let you check the math on their army list.

 Cypherus wrote:
If you don't mind I have a related story

My Space Wolves vs Eldar
Never won a game because of those horrible Tau so I wanted to win this match. I fielded a predator with lascannons, logan grimnar with terminators and two squads of wolf guard. My friend had Eldrad Ulthran, guardians, dire avengers, swooping hawks and a Falcon grav tank. Started on a high because my predator took out the falcon first turn but when I shot at Eldrad he teleported out of view (strange). Then he used four Eldrich Storms and killed my predator and most of my wolf guard (2 left). The powers were used without a psychic test and didn't scatter. Second turn I teleported in my terminators who wiped out the guardians and than what was left of my army was destroyed by Eldrad.

It's almost like you two were playing two different games with two different rulesets, but on the same table.

I got into the game through a guy I went to college with who played Tau...the guy was so good at cheating that he could beat an entire army of imperial guard and space marines with nothing but Kroot.

He basically was really good at taking advantage of other people not being as familiar with the rules as he was. What were we going to do? Sit there and skim through the codecies and rule books mid-game?

BrotherVord wrote:
I got into the game through a guy I went to college with who played Tau...the guy was so good at cheating that he could beat an entire army of imperial guard and space marines with nothing but Kroot.

He basically was really good at talk advantage of other people not being as familiar with the rules as he was. What were we going to do? Sit there and skim through the codecies and rule books mid-game?

That's...usually what everyone does when they can't trust their memorized knowledge, sorry to say.

 Jidmah wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Sure, it's not cheating. It's just bending or forgetting the rules unfairly in your favor.

Serious opinion? We're playing a game with rules. These rules are in books. We presumably have these books if we're playing the game, or we've at least pirated them (lol). Either read them and learn them, or don't play. Any deviation from this is probably cheating, if it benefits the offending player.

Yeah, but it starts becoming no fun when you have to memorize your own codex, your ally codex, the game rules and the two codices the guy who conveniently forgets and misreads his own army rules all the time is playing.

Agreed...the latter point is the real problem. Forgetting rules is one thing - forgetting them in your favor and leaving your codex at home so you can't actually look it up...that's cheating.

ETA perhaps my post was misconstrued...I apologize. I was not suggesting that the burden of proof or memorization lies on the OP but rather on his opponents. The problem is people forgetting what their own units do. Sorry if that was unclear.

Need someone with a Chaos codex to check these's lists as I don't have the Chaos dex.One is from my teammate and the other is from the guy who played chaos.

Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Slaanesh 80pts
2x Noise Marines w/ 1 Blastmaster 250pts
2x Havoics w 4 Lascannons 310pts

Point Total: 630pts

Chaos Lord w/Mark of Slaanesh-80pts
2x Noise Marines w/1 Blastmaster each-330pts total
2x Havocs with 4 Lascannons-155 total

Point total-485


As you can see the totals for the same armies are...different to put it smoothly. again, I don't have the Codex so I can't tell, it's all second hand information from only two people so I could use a third opinion/set of eyes if you will to figure out the ACTUAL point total for:
Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Slaanesh
2xSquads of Noise Marines each with 1 Blastmaster
2x Squads of Havocs each with 4 Lascannons

Thanks for your time!!