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Ok to start off this is not a rant on how bad that CSM codex is or the like (I think it has a lot of good points, but I feel that more could have been done). My goal is to state what I feel could help give the CSM more of a feel of uniqueness and not so much SM with spikey bits and to read what other CSM players/community players would like to see in the future for the CSM codex or upcoming supplements. It is a wish list, but with the idea of developing war gear and units that best fit with the CSM.

To go into what I'm talking about I will start off with the general weapons that the CSM have. To me part of what makes warhammer 40k cool is that each army has its own weapons for the most part. Tau has pulse weapons and rail guns, Necrons have gauss, Tyranids have bio grown weapons, and so on. So that really gives an army its own feel and even if they fight exactly like or similar to another army like a gun line they at lest have a different way of doing it. Now for CSM their weapons are not bad don't get me wrong they have never suffered from bad weaponry, but the weapons themselves for the vast majority are not that different from what the IOM uses. To me CSM who have close ties with the Dark Adeptus Mechanicus they would have access to new weaponry (and I mean new weaponry stuff that would have one killed in the IOM as heresy because it doesn't follow an STC. Heresy like they thought it up, put it to paper, then built it, tested it, and finally massed produced it heresy), They should have answers to weapons like the storm bolter and to the vehicles that are seemingly disappearing from traitor SM the moment they hit the eye of terror even if they turned to Chaos last week.

So enter the idea of Heresy weapons. These weapons are weapons the Dark Adeptus Mechanicus has designed and built as well as current designs that they have altered largely for no other reason than to throw salt into the wound. Example instead of a CSM bolter being rapid fire it would be assault instead (NO PROPOSED RULES PLEASE JUST AN EXAMPLE). Since the bolter is considered a holy weapon of the Emperor's wraith altering it would be a way of saying you and insulting every warrior of the Emperor you came across.

To me fluff wise fighting CSM should be dangerous not only because its Chaos, but because you don't know what new weapon they are going to throw at you this time. I mean the Dark Adeptus Mechanicus are not bound to the same rules as the Adeptus Mechanicus. So big question to me here is why do the CSM seem to follow it to the letter (in game wise). Ok so you have weapons like the noise guns and the newest additions like the baleflamer, but for the most part your average CSM doesn't have archaic weaponry or something that the Dark Adeptus Mechanicus just cooked up which I feel like they should have access to.

To sum it all up I feel that the CSM codex could have really benefitted from new weapons and war gear across the broad and to make weapons like the bolter, autocannon, and lascannon to have a different feel to them in the CSM codex. I know that GW is going for that 30k feel when it comes to CSM weapons, but to me it doesn't feel like nasty weapons from another time just dated weapons from 2nd edition (no offense to anyone out there and I have only been playing since 5th, but I was really hoping to some cool dark age tech or Dark Adeptus Mechanicus stuff when they updated the CSM codex to 6th).

Now on to vehicles. We have seen the newest demon engines/dino bots to appear in the CSM codex. Now I happen to like the dino bots the mix of machine, flesh, and demon works with the CSM and they to me at least are fun units, but from the comments that came with their release it looked like that was not what gamers really wanted. I happen to agree that I would have rather seen a better Chaos Land Raider and variants for it as well as drop pods and allowing the Chaos predator to take the hades autocannon as a option would have been nice.

To help with the CSM disappearing vehicles I think once again the Dark Adeptus Mechanicus come in very handy. There is so much that can be done with these guys besides making demon engines and I would like to see what they can produce as a response to a threat when they are not bound by the law of the IOM. As a response to the land speeder they could produce a vehicle that has heavy xenos influence in it. Which to me would offer a very interesting model and go back to the idea of does your heresy know no bounds.

Over all I would like to see more done with CSM I feel like their codex should be as large as the SM codex. With all that can be done with the CSM codex there is no reason it should not be. These are just my thoughts on the matter and over all I'm not unhappy with the CSM codex I just wish GW would have done more with it.

I completely agree. I like the dex but left me feeling a little empty fluff wise. I like the new demon engines, but again they have very very few options. I would have loved to have seen a forgefiend and/or landraider with the option for bale flamers and blast masters. That would not make them over powered, but would add variety and fluff. Maybe more people would use landraiders and forgefiends if they had those. I just got shivers thinking of a forgefiend with three bale flamers.

Well, the dark mechanicus DOES make new weapons. They're called forgefiends and helldrakes and hellbrutes and the like. They're too busy making gigantic demon engines of war in order to waste their time reinventing the bolter or the lascannon. Those weapons work just fine, why change them?

This is especially true when you consider just how much CSM loots from the imperium. It doesn't make sense to suddenly start taking non-standard ammunition or weapons that things you confiscated from your enemy no longer work with. Doubly true given that CSM doesn't have forgeworlds like the Imperium does (or, at least, on nowhere near the scale). It makes much more sense to let the imperium make the tanks, guns, and bullets, and then just steal them and integrate them into what you already have, which was built originally to the same standard.

Yeah, there is something to be said for "spiky marines", but they are Chaos SPACE MARINES after all. They SHOULD be rather similar. Meanwhile, you take what the imperium gets and add on Ap3 bolters on 4++ models lead with psykers as sergeants, and demon engines that are living battering rams, and demon princes, and you do have an army that isn't just a different flavor of marines.

I mean, compare DA to SM, and then compare CSM to SM. DA is much closer.

Fair points Ailaros, but I'm pretty sure that they do have their own forge worlds not as many though as the IOM and with the main weapon of the IOM being the lasgun the bolter at least would need to be produced somewhere. While I agree that swapping to weapons that would require forge worlds to build instead of keeping what can be easily kept going by stolen goods makes no sense. We have to remember that this is chaos and they don't always do what makes sense at least i hope they wouldn't otherwise that would be boring.

Did this on my phone so wording may be weird.

Also, you've got to remember that the dark mechanicum doesn't give out its secrets lightly. The light-side mechanicum is ordered by the imperium to make sure that all their tanks and weapons are in working order, and that people are using well-maintained, standardized equipment, etc. etc. They're there to be out amongst the people, even while they have a secret side.

The dark side ones, though, run private forges wherein the work their experiments. They don't need to do anything for anyone but themselves. Not to say that some chaos lords have good access to the dark mechanicum, but that doesn't mean they all do, and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that they have access on their own terms.

Space marines can shout "give me a land raider" and they get a land raider. Chaos lords are much more "umm... can I borrow your maulerfiend? If you're not using it, you know..."

Along similar veins, some warpsmiths DO have lots of zany weapons, and do have that chaotic "which one am I using now?" motif. They're called obliterators.

... and they don't exactly lend others their bio-plasma cannons...

Ok i feel like your missing my main idea it is not about getting that big nasty unit its about having weapons not just units that feel chaotic. i taking about weapons that throw the laws of physics out the door just cause they can or basic weaponry that replaces combi bolters and the like. it has nothing to do with whether or not the unit is chaotic. yes oblits are a great unit that can bring any weapon needed when needed, but they don't bring any new weapons to the table and really that's my idea bringing in weapons that can be used CSM infantry across the codex to help specialize the unit as well as bring in new chaos vehicles that are not demon engines.

Oh.

They're called sonic blasters and inferno bolters and wapflame gargoyles and axes of blind fury, and black maces and dimensional keys, and bale flamers and hades autocannons, and ectoplasma cannons, and possessed and spawn random weapons, and lasher whips and doom sirens and blastmasters, and plague knives and blight grenades, and dirge casters, and fleshmetal and ichor blood, and familiars, and chaos psychic powers and mounts.

... and that's not even including some of the weird stuff that special characters get.

Not saying they don't have some really cool stuff already, but i would like to more across the codex items. sonic blasters and all noise weapons for that matter are only one unit i cannot put noise weapons on a chaos land raider or a hellbrute. also why do krone brezerkers not have wrist mounted meltas or flamers i mean they are assault based and having those kind of wrist mounted weapons would help them. Plague marines could have plague grenade launcher and a palgue flamer. give the thousand sons a warp flamer. There are other weapons with a chaotic feel to them that can be used for the CSM infantry. trying to think of a weapon system for termis, but got nothing right now.

Well, if you gave every unit the option to take the same weapons, then you get a less diverse codex. Put another way, it becomes more boring. I mean, if khorne berzerkers could get sonic weapons and noise marines could get furious charge and rage, then they'd be basically the same unit.

As for why more units don't have more options, my guess is that it's probably a balance thing. Berzerkers work the way they do because they don't have access to serious shooting weapons. If you take that distinction away, then you've got to do other stuff to balance them out.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, if you gave every unit the option to take the same weapons, then you get a less diverse codex. Put another way, it becomes more boring. I mean, if khorne berzerkers could get sonic weapons and noise marines could get furious charge and rage, then they'd be basically the same unit.

As for why more units don't have more options, my guess is that it's probably a balance thing. Berzerkers work the way they do because they don't have access to serious shooting weapons. If you take that distinction away, then you've got to do other stuff to balance them out.

My apologies Ailaros but I'm a bit perplexed on this. I don't think that this was the intention of throwing sonic weapons on khornate berzerkers. My assumption is that the desire is to give units more choices then pick chain axes or go generic cc weapon and pick between a bad plasma pistol or bolt pistol for berzerkers and other things rather than having a blob of Thousand Sons that have bolter guns bolter guns (AP3 admittedly) but no other real options and a sub-par psyker table. Along with that, I think another hope was simply to be able to mark vehicles then put on other tools. Perhaps barring them unless you have an hq marked from that god but Dreadnoughts with Noise blasters to let people play the Emperor's Children army's that became relatively impossible as the weapons became absolutely invalidated.

Along with that, I admit to feeling that there really aren't that many daemonic weapons nor does it make sense that Berzkerkers, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, Plague Marines only come in tactical armour with no other true options bar putting a mark and then making them as close as possible whilst not being the same. Granted I have a feeling these 4 will possibly get supplements to make more playable possibly even providing special point costs to make termies and/or jump unit into Berkerker marines and hopefully some more daemonic weaponry! (They ripped out a lot of god specific weapons so that's my guess)

The other thing is vehicles that carry more chaotic weapons as well as new vehicles that show the CSM producing new designs not just demon engines.

What I've never understood is why we don't get whirlwinds, land speeders and drop pods. It's like when you get to the Eye of Terror you have to hand them all over.

It's about giving CSM a different feel than loyalist marines. Different bolt rounds used by a horrible unit or worthless chain axes don't cut it. The Hades AC and Bale flamer are a good start, let us use those more. Chaos does indeed have forge worlds...they have lots of them. They can produce their own terminator armor. Remember, a full half of the Mechanicum (the half that won the civil war) went with Horus and in the 41st mil, they are more than happy to sell their wares to the highest bidder. My favorite Word Bearers own their own forgeworld. Having them use sub-par versions of loyalist stuff just doesn't make sense fluff wise, and makes it a little boring rule wise.

 Musashi363 wrote:
It's about giving CSM a different feel than loyalist marines. Different bolt rounds used by a horrible unit or worthless chain axes don't cut it. The Hades AC and Bale flamer are a good start, let us use those more. Chaos does indeed have forge worlds...they have lots of them. They can produce their own terminator armor. Remember, a full half of the Mechanicum (the half that won the civil war) went with Horus and in the 41st mil, they are more than happy to sell their wares to the highest bidder. My favorite Word Bearers own their own forgeworld. Having them use sub-par versions of loyalist stuff just doesn't make sense fluff wise, and makes it a little boring rule wise.

There are Dark Forge Worlds, and every time I read about them they sound as if large parts of the Dark Mechanicum are under a sort of slavery building weapons for the ruinous powers.

Personally I really did wish that CSM got Dreadclaw drop pods as dedicated transports for Chaos marines (after all if Tyranids, the most Ailen of all Xenos can have their own drop pod called a mystectic spore, then why cant CSM have their own variation... note I have always wanted to field a drop pod CSM army since I saw the SM drop pod in 2008).

Other than that I made a unit for Warpsmiths which I thought were cool which adds to the diversity of CSM: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/533911.page while not Game-Breaking it is a nice little unit that would be cool to see in an army of CSM imo..

 Exergy wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
It's about giving CSM a different feel than loyalist marines. Different bolt rounds used by a horrible unit or worthless chain axes don't cut it. The Hades AC and Bale flamer are a good start, let us use those more. Chaos does indeed have forge worlds...they have lots of them. They can produce their own terminator armor. Remember, a full half of the Mechanicum (the half that won the civil war) went with Horus and in the 41st mil, they are more than happy to sell their wares to the highest bidder. My favorite Word Bearers own their own forgeworld. Having them use sub-par versions of loyalist stuff just doesn't make sense fluff wise, and makes it a little boring rule wise.

There are Dark Forge Worlds, and every time I read about them they sound as if large parts of the Dark Mechanicum are under a sort of slavery building weapons for the ruinous powers.

What some people in this thread seem to forget is that there is plenty of chaos lords who have entire dark forge worlds to themselves and they FORCE them to build them better daemonic gear.

It's not like the Mechanicus where it's all "Welp, here ya go!" when they feel like it, with the Dark Forge worlds they usually trade whether it be in souls, slaves, or artifacts, or they are weak enough that they've been captured by warbands or they are just as religiously devoted and will churn things out for their gods forces

 Ailaros wrote:

I mean, compare DA to SM, and then compare CSM to SM. DA is much closer.

The DA special units(Deathwing knights and Ravenwing Black Knights) have plasma talons, rad grenade launchers, maces of absolution. CSM special units(warp talons and possessed) have LC and their fists....
DA terminators can have CML, AC, PC, or HF. CSM terminators can have RAC or HF.
DA heavy weapons can be PC, LC, ML, HB, or MM. CSM can have AC, LC, HB, or ML.

CSM just have less options and those options are usually worse. If the RAC was 36" twinlinked heavy 3, it might begin to compare to the AC.
Combi bolters are more often worse than storm bolters, especilly on things that arent relentless.

It would be cool if CSM's basic weapons were slightly different, but not flat worse. RAC are flat worse than TL AC.
The Forgefiends ecto plasma cannons are -12" range but +1 strength. They are worse, but not that much worse. All CSM could have older plasma rifles. 18" but str8 or something. Different but equal.

There's loads of scope to expand the Chaos Marines in a fluffy way that also builds up the gameplay aspect of it.

They are not bound by the Codex. Ultramarines might need 10 bodies before they can claim their Chapter-subsidised gear but Chaos Marines are solely limited on shanking the previous owner. With that in mind, squads could have massively increased access to special weapons and at smaller requirements, besides points.
For example, every 5 bodies gets you access to 2 special weapons and a melee option. Sure it'll cost you an arm for the kit but why not? They don't follow any rules and if you have the muscle (See points) then nobody is going to tell you to put the guns down. You could even increase the price purely to account for the increased access. For example, 1 in 5 gets a Plasma Gun for 15pts. A second of 5 can get one for 20pts. Exactly the same gun but deliberately taxed to keep abuse potential down.
Similarly, the cost of individual warriors should reduce as the squad gets bigger. Kind of like an inverse Sergeant tax. Say, the first 5 cost 75pts including a Champion. The next 5 would simply be 13pts each. After reaching 10 models, a further 10 can be added at 12pts each. Thus the larger Heresy formation squads are actually cost-effective.

On a similar note, more Heresy kit would be nice. Specifically the Destroyer squads would fit perfectly into 40k. What suits the bad traitor character better than chemical warfare, rad-weaponry and blinding phosphex. Imagine Plague Marines wading through a warzone turned into a biohazard. Havocs would go from spiky Devastators to a swiss-army knife of utility and always having the right gun for the job.

I'd also like to see a new Assault Vehicle based on Dark Mechanicus technology. Something simple with little to no firepower, modest armour but the ability to assault from. Because immediately, the plethora of assault infantry gets a real job to do. Berzerkers gain an option beyond Land Raiders that wastes none of the Lascannons or armour, just needing that burst of mobility.

 happygolucky wrote:
Personally I really did wish that CSM got Dreadclaw drop pods as dedicated transports for Chaos marines (after all if Tyranids, the most Ailen of all Xenos can have their own drop pod called a mystectic spore, then why cant CSM have their own variation... note I have always wanted to field a drop pod CSM army since I saw the SM drop pod in 2008).

Other than that I made a unit for Warpsmiths which I thought were cool which adds to the diversity of CSM: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/533911.page while not Game-Breaking it is a nice little unit that would be cool to see in an army of CSM imo..

Really cool idea and that brings the question why don't they have some like that maybe even expand them into a troops choice. I mean a Warpsmith would become much more hirable to me if he had his own personal army and in the politics of Chaos having an army means that your points have a little more importance than the other guy.

I'd like more chaos equipment, that is actually chaos, both god specific and available to all. Just slight variations for the imperial issued vehicles. Maybe a special weapon and a heavy you can't find in every imperial army would be plenty.

Sadly, the CSM Codex is still stuck between multiple conflicting interpretations of what Chaos and CSM should be on the board and in fluff. There's still the oldest form, where servants of Chaos are defined by their patron. So we have god exclusive wargear, cult troops, marks. This goes back all the way to Realm of Chaos.

Then there's the idea of Legions, fixed in time, fighting with ancient wargear and organized specifically by their own doctrine. This started in 2nd edition codex design and reached its height with Index Astartes and the 3.5 Codex.

Then there's the thing where CSM are wildly mixed, disorganized warbands with cult units. This started with obliberators and raptors, imho, became a thing with the 4th edition codex and really came into it's own in the 6th edition Codex, where we got Warp Talons, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends and Helldrakes. Those units have no explanation except: "Hey, it's chaos. Crazy stuff gets produced and all renegades use it"

They are all pretty good ideas on doing Chaos. But they can't be all done at the same time without messing up. They are all still in the codex though, so we have Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders and Vindicators that are almost exactly the same as Imperial versions. And they are churned out by the same Warpsmiths that create those demon engines. This doesn't make a lot of sense, fluff whise. All the vehicles using imperial design and most basic units are designed by the "Legions from 30k" philosophy. Cult units and their equipment, artefacts, codex deamons and most special characters are designed by the old "Defined by gods" approach. Most new units follow the warband formula.

tl/dr: I'd like more Dark Mechanicus equipment, but unless GW can decide how to design CSM we won't get it in a satisfying way.

I honestly like the basic weapons the way they are. As far as I'm concerned, a lascannon is a lascannon is a lascannon, regardless of whether it's a Guardsman, Loyalist or Chaos Marine pulling the trigger. I don't see the point in overcomplicating the basic stuff, and think that keeping the really unique gear like Sonic Blasters limited to a single unit keeps that unit useful.

I do feel that we get mildly shafted on vehicles. Although we have our Fiends, Heldrakes, and Defilers, I still fail to understand how our Land Raider fails to hold more than 10 guys (it's the same chassis, for crying out loud!), and a variant or two wouldn't go amiss. Whirlwinds and Land Speeders I can deal with not having (they're shiny new toys that the Chaos boys probably don't know how to maintain or even use, in some cases). And I really wish we had an Attack Bike- surely it isn't that hard to bolt a sidecar onto a Bike and strap a gun to it?

 Zed wrote:
I honestly like the basic weapons the way they are. As far as I'm concerned, a lascannon is a lascannon is a lascannon, regardless of whether it's a Guardsman, Loyalist or Chaos Marine pulling the trigger. I don't see the point in overcomplicating the basic stuff, and think that keeping the really unique gear like Sonic Blasters limited to a single unit keeps that unit useful.

I do feel that we get mildly shafted on vehicles. Although we have our Fiends, Heldrakes, and Defilers, I still fail to understand how our Land Raider fails to hold more than 10 guys (it's the same chassis, for crying out loud!), and a variant or two wouldn't go amiss. Whirlwinds and Land Speeders I can deal with not having (they're shiny new toys that the Chaos boys probably don't know how to maintain or even use, in some cases). And I really wish we had an Attack Bike- surely it isn't that hard to bolt a sidecar onto a Bike and strap a gun to it?

Our vehicles and our melee faction troops, as well as most of our daemon and not to mention things like chosen being poor in general.

 Zed wrote:
I honestly like the basic weapons the way they are. As far as I'm concerned, a lascannon is a lascannon is a lascannon, regardless of whether it's a Guardsman, Loyalist or Chaos Marine pulling the trigger. I don't see the point in overcomplicating the basic stuff, and think that keeping the really unique gear like Sonic Blasters limited to a single unit keeps that unit useful.

I do feel that we get mildly shafted on vehicles. Although we have our Fiends, Heldrakes, and Defilers, I still fail to understand how our Land Raider fails to hold more than 10 guys (it's the same chassis, for crying out loud!), and a variant or two wouldn't go amiss. Whirlwinds and Land Speeders I can deal with not having (they're shiny new toys that the Chaos boys probably don't know how to maintain or even use, in some cases). And I really wish we had an Attack Bike- surely it isn't that hard to bolt a sidecar onto a Bike and strap a gun to it?

I don't think that people really want to have all the basic weapons doing some different than their Imperial counter parts, but have new weapons that make the CSM feel more than SM with spiky bits. I completely agree on the CSM vehicles getting shafted. Though I disagree on the CSM not knowing how to use whrilwinds and land speeders they have their own forge worlds that have the same knowledge and more in different areas mainly chaos. I don't really want to see them in the CSM codex, but a version of those vehicles that does something similar would be nice.

Whirlwinds and Land Speeders I can deal with not having (they're shiny new toys that the Chaos boys probably don't know how to maintain or even us

What all the marines who could use them during the heresy all have dementia?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

Whirlwinds and Land Speeders I can deal with not having (they're shiny new toys that the Chaos boys probably don't know how to maintain or even us

What all the marines who could use them during the heresy all have dementia?

Yeah that has never made any sense. I can understand the need to make them different than regular SM, but why not replace it with a different vehicle that the CSM have produced or a vehicle that had been banned by the Emperor. Not just remove them and act like no one will notice and act like the fluff supports it which it does not.

Alright so I think that we all can agree that CSM could benefit from new vehicles, but we have no examples of which to go into so why not do what GW did a look to the past (fluff wise) and go back to 30k. I don't think that the 30k SM approach is wrong GW is just not doing it right. They need to go back to the Horus Heresy and give them vehicles from that time stuff that one is not going to see in a SM army even if it is the old style version. The vehicles would to me would be able to have different rules as well as different weaponry giving the CSM a very unique feel.

Here are some pics to show what I mean.

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

Whirlwinds and Land Speeders I can deal with not having (they're shiny new toys that the Chaos boys probably don't know how to maintain or even us

What all the marines who could use them during the heresy all have dementia?

Some of them probably do but fair point, I was under the impression both were developed post-heresy for some reason. I still don't reckon they belong in the CSM codex , to me they seem too "modern" given the flavour of the rest of the book. Also, between our unique vehicles we can adequately fill the Whirlwind's niche.
Offering unique, Chaosy vehicles that fill the roles of the Drop Pod and Land Speeder (ie "reliably drop stuff in backline/wherever and annoy afterwards" and "fast heavy weapon delivery system/ occasional bullet magnet") and fixing the damn Land Raider would keep me happy.

But adding a couple more basic weapons... honestly, I'd rather see some of the less useful, but awesomely Chaos-flavoured units already in the codex brought up to par. It would give off more of the "Yeah, we have less toys, but look what we can do anyway" impression that I've always felt CSM was supposed to have.

Just my two cents, opinion will of course vary.

Honestly the three important things the codex failed to meet in my opinion:

lack of legion traits

inaccurate/unrealistic points cost.

Lack of choices/lists


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is nice we Get daemons as battle brothers (or sisters if your into that kind of chaos worship) which means we can utilize some of their goodies. But really why buy two codices/armies to achieve the desired affect for a chaos space marine army?

 Musashi363 wrote:
It's about giving CSM a different feel than loyalist marines. Different bolt rounds used by a horrible unit or worthless chain axes don't cut it. The Hades AC and Bale flamer are a good start, let us use those more. Chaos does indeed have forge worlds...they have lots of them. They can produce their own terminator armor. Remember, a full half of the Mechanicum (the half that won the civil war) went with Horus and in the 41st mil, they are more than happy to sell their wares to the highest bidder. My favorite Word Bearers own their own forgeworld. Having them use sub-par versions of loyalist stuff just doesn't make sense fluff wise, and makes it a little boring rule wise.

Agreed - and individual Chaos Space Marines should be more skilled fighters than their loyalist counterparts. Unit organization? Pfft...the basic unit, "Chaos Space Marines", should be anywhere from 3-30 Power Armored fighters with 1 Special or Heavy per 5 guys. Champions should be non-mandatory point upgrades, and not necessarily limited to one per unit. I'd also like to see a mechanic similar to Pain Tokens, where the unit picks up unit-wide buffs or mutations based on enemy kills in H2H. This would give players a reason to take massive 20-30 man units.

This type of crazy organization would reflect the type of disorganized pirate stuff you should see from CSM while setting them apart from loyalists and better representing the original Legion-style organization.

I'd like to add that part of what kills the uniqueness of CSM is Allies, believe it or not. Having cultists, CSM could have been the only Marines army capable of taking cheap meat shields (outside of GK Coteaz builds). As it is, though, pretty much any Space Marines army can take IG allies and have access to cheap meat shields. Uniqueness - killed.