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So this came to my attention;

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/09/penny-arcade-expo-dickwolves/

PA overstepping more than a few lines and the things it results in. Rather crappy behavior on their part and Krahulik's mentality on this seems to be "Either you're my rabid fan or you're just oppressing my opinion" strikes me as more than a little childish.

If this is a repost I apologize, couldn't see another posting of this so yeah. Also was unsure if this was better posted here or in off topic due to it being an expo with as far as i'm aware, tabletop studios expo-ing...or whatever the wort is

A rebuttal!

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification

This should be in the OT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, IMO, people got waaaay too excited over that penny arcade comic.

As the article said, to quote the Dude "you're not wrong, you're just an donkey-cave". Artistically, they're not in the wrong, but it is rather awkward. Personally, my interest in PA waned a while ago, they were always kinda prima-donna-ey at Comic-Con, and was really solidified when they shut down the ME3 protest fundraiser for Child's Play because they felt "anything related to Child's Play must be just about Child's Play and nothing else", but didn't seem to have an issue with EA using Child's Play to sell DLC packs for Battlefield....

 pretre wrote:
This should be in the OT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, IMO, people got waaaay too excited over that penny arcade comic.

Thanks for the clarification.

Also it's less about the comic, more about "rather than just letting this thing die, lets put it on tshirts and rub it in everyone's face" that's the problem. The "rape" in the comic was just "here's a terrible thing that happens to NPC's, and none of you guys save them". The problem seems to stem from those who raised "consider the following" statements and were subsequently attacked by the PA fans for the differing opinion. Rather than doing the mature thing, PA used it as a stupid rallying cry for a general "you can't judge me I haz the powah" and proceed to force it to escalate.

 pretre wrote:
This should be in the OT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, IMO, people got waaaay too excited over that penny arcade comic.

Excited or angry mob?

For those that don't know the Dickwolves was a comic made by Penny Arcade talking about the ridiculousness of some of the quests in I believe World of Warcraft: Cataclysm (It featured a Worgen character). In the comic, a Worgen is counting the number of slaves he had to free when a slave asks him to save him. The worgen says he needs to free x slaves which he has done, and says "cya" to the slave. The Slave then recounts a tale about how every night they are horribly raped by the Dickwolves. I laughed at the comic because I thought it was humorous to think of a wolf with nothing but penises for it's appendages.

Then they released a second comic (image is in the OP's link) explaining themselves. People got butthurt, PA overreacted on twitter (Mike did), and it didn't end well. They had a shirt that said, "Penny Arcade Dickwolves" with a right facing wolf's head. People got upset again because they said they were trivializing rape, again people on both sides overreacted.

During the Monday of PAX, Robert Khoo, Penny Arcade's main businessman that keeps the company running so Mike and Jerry can make comics, etc... did an on stage interview where he would ask Mike and Jerry any question he wanted to. The question that spurned the dickwolves comment from Mike was, "Name a time where you (Mike and Jerry) thought I (Robert Khoo) had made a mistake." Mike, being who he is said he thought Robert made a mistake pulling the Dickwolves merchandise, because it basically showed people that Penny Arcade was reeling from the product and the comic instead of defending their work, which again... got people angry...

 doc1234 wrote:
Rather than doing the mature thing,

Lemme stop you there. It is a website that is devoted to making dick, fart and poop jokes about video games. They have been making off-color jokes for years. No one should be surprised by this at this point if they act like big children. That's their thing.

The fact that Fruit-Fether or the Beastiality jokes or whatever else hasn't been a trigger for anyone but the rape wolves have is just weird. I'm not saying that either side is right. There were certainly plenty of internet douchebaggery on both sides. I just don't think it should have ever been an issue in the first place.

Wow. What a fething donkey-cave. There are about 80 other ways for him to make his point about the 'ethics of WoW questing" without marginalizing rape victims, particularly when the burgeoning human sex trade is such a huge problem in many "civilized" parts of the world today.

I think his rebuttal is a load of horsegak, too. It's completely disingenuous. Its pretty easy to say now, after THAT article in THAT magazine that you apologize for all the things of the past. And guess what, Mike? Had it only been the initial strip and you apologized, no one would care. But you had to be right, didn't you? So you had to do another. And then you had to make fething t-shirts? You basically made all three outs in the inning, so any apology now is completely shallow. It's like Ryan Braun's. It's really easy to make an 'apology' like this, in writing, with no real repercussions.

Honestly, I don't get people in 'geek' demographics that bully other people, when presumably many of them were bullied or marginalized when they were younger. Hell, we saw a prime example of it on Heroes of Cosplay this week. And bear in mind, I'm a dude that think the 'bully card' is far overplayed today. But man.....

Also it's less about the comic, more about "rather than just letting this thing die, lets put it on tshirts and rub it in everyone's face" that's the problem. The "rape" in the comic was just "here's a terrible thing that happens to NPC's, and none of you guys save them". The problem seems to stem from those who raised "consider the following" statements and were subsequently attacked by the PA fans for the differing opinion. Rather than doing the mature thing, PA used it as a stupid rallying cry for a general "you can't judge me I haz the powah" and proceed to force it to escalate.

Yup, pretty much my line of thought too.
For a "professional", presumably educated, well connected/advised adult running an internationally well know website with thousands of readers/backers, its pretty sad stuff being honest. Akin to some overinflated rockstar or sport star believing their own hype and thinking that the World really does revolve around them
He should go back in his box.

 cincydooley wrote:
Wow. What a fething donkey-cave. There are about 80 other ways for him to make his point about the 'ethics of WoW questing"

You must not be familiar with Penny Arcade.

Aye, moved to OT due to subject matter.

The content of the website is actually irrelevant Pretre, he could be selling blow up inflatable sheep that make fart noises for all anyone cares.
Its his reaction as CEO/owner that is out of order.
Not to mention a lack of basic empathy and maturity/professionalism.

 pretre wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:
Rather than doing the mature thing,

Lemme stop you there. It is a website that is devoted to making dick, fart and poop jokes about video games. They have been making off-color jokes for years. No one should be surprised by this at this point if they act like big children. That's their thing.

The fact that Fruit-Fether or the Beastiality jokes or whatever else hasn't been a trigger for anyone but the rape wolves have is just weird. I'm not saying that either side is right. There were certainly plenty of internet douchebaggery on both sides. I just don't think it should have ever been an issue in the first place.

Yes, I accept that the dick fart and poop jokes is about video games is their thing, it's what the sites for. And yes, they shouldn't (and good on them for it) have to censor their whole site just because one sub group may or may not get offended. And while I admit it doesn't excuse either side for blowing up like children, it doesn't mean he can encourage the frothing mob that is the fandom in their efforts to rub it in rape survivors faces. If you lost a child, how would you react to me saying "Hey hows the kids? OH THAT'S RIGHT HUR DUR" and proceeding to put a picture of something equally inflammatory on a shirt just to wear around you. Bit of an extreme yes, but the point stands. The original act was fine, but encouraging and supporting this kind of behavior (the belittling and bullying) at a con/expo/whatever that's meant to be inclusive, safe and whatever else is more than a little douchey.

EDIT: Thanks Morathi's Darkest Sin!

Mike Krahulik always says what he thinks (Scott Kurts does this as well).

To quote another piece of the article:



Does this get him into a lot of trouble? Yes, but it also allows Penny Arcade to produce good, creative material. In this day and age, I think it's incredibly hard to put out anything without offending somebody.

Personally, I think that the merchandise was over the top, but mistakes happen. It'll blow over in a few weeks and time will move on.

EDIT: Plus, Jerry Holkins is the guy who actually wrote the text for both comics, but he's not under any heat.

 Dr. What wrote:
It'll blow over in a few weeks and time will move on.

It has been going on for significantly longer than a few weeks already.

Well, if you've seen a few of the 4th Wall episodes of the PA TV, the idea writing is both of them. Jerry just takes the lump of ideas and molds them into comic strips.

 pretre wrote:

 Dr. What wrote:
It'll blow over in a few weeks and time will move on.

It has been going on for significantly longer than a few weeks already.

The internet's fury over the dickwolves will blow over in a few weeks like it does, but there is always a smoldering ember ready to burst into flames as soon as someone mentions those two words in combination again...

I clicked on this thread, thinking it was about Diskwolves.. I was like "What's a diskwolf? Some new fantasy creature" and then I realized I read it wrong...

There's a huge difference between offending someone and making light of a very serious crime that destroys lives. And like people have already said, it's not even the initial comic strip that did it; its the subsequent insensitive asshattery that followed.

 doc1234 wrote:
If you lost a child, how would you react to me saying "Hey hows the kids? OH THAT'S RIGHT HUR DUR" and proceeding to put a picture of something equally inflammatory on a shirt just to wear around you. Bit of an extreme yes, but the point stands.

Bad analogy is bad.

If I lost a kid and there was a comic on the internet that tangentially referred to dead children, I probably wouldn't care. If there was a shirt that referenced that tangential reference, I also wouldn't care. I would feel bad that people made a big freaking deal out of nothing though.

(and yes, I am a parent and losing either of my children terrifies me. That doesn't mean that I think people shouldn't make jokes on the internet about dead kids anymore though. Especially if they are not directly about that topic, as the dickwolves were not really about real rape. They were about WOW quests and the rape of NPCS by mythical dick-armed wolves.)

 cincydooley wrote:
Wow. What a fething donkey-cave. There are about 80 other ways for him to make his point about the 'ethics of WoW questing" without marginalizing rape victims...

Aaaaand I'll stop you right there. Using the word "rape" in a joke is not "margnialising rape victims". Even making straight-up jokes about rape and rapists is not "marginalising rape victims". If you're going to argue that, it follows that you must also argue that no potentially offensive subject, nor anything related can ever, ever be the topic of a joke.

This is the same "think of the children" hypersensitivity that always comes from a certain brand of dour, humourless people whenever a comedian references anything controversial.

 cincydooley wrote:
There's a huge difference between offending someone and making light of a very serious crime that destroys lives. And like people have already said, it's not even the initial comic strip that did it; its the subsequent insensitive asshattery that followed.

The asshattery wouldn't have occurred if people didn't get their panties in a twist over something that really has nothing to do with 'a very serious crime that destroys lives'.

Were the folks (on either side) right in taunting and escalating things? Absolutely not. Should this have ever come up in the first place? No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
If you're going to argue that, it follows that you must also argue that no potentially offensive subject, nor anything related can ever, ever be the topic of a joke.

And this would be a crime. Think of all the good horribly offensive jokes we'd miss out on.

 pretre wrote:
And this would be a crime. Think of all the good horribly offensive jokes we'd miss out on.

Oh man I know! Stop me if you've heard this one:

So a man goes and then he and says, "All in a day's work!"

Oh man that one kills me

 Alfndrate wrote:
Oh man that one kills me

Don't marginalize murder victims.

My undrestanding is that people (presumably fans) let them know they were offended and he reacted by basically rubbing it in their faces. Is that right?

You know the easiest solution? A response something like this:

"We realize that some of our fanbase may have been affected by rape or had loved ones affected by rape. We are in no way marginalizing the crime itself, as it is abhorrent and we certainly don't condone it. We simply were using it as an exemplar for the ambigous ethics the quests lines in World of Warcraft portray and would love to see a discussion form about how many players free more slaves than they have to."

Instead they made t-shirts.

 cincydooley wrote:
My undrestanding is that people (presumably fans) let them know they were offended and he reacted by basically rubbing it in their faces. Is that right?

You know the easiest solution? A response something like this:

"We realize that some of our fanbase may have been affected by rape or had loved ones affected by rape. We are in no way marginalizing the crime itself, as it is abhorrent and we certainly don't condone it. We simply were using it as an exemplar for the ambigous ethics the quests lines in World of Warcraft portray and would love to see a discussion form about how many players free more slaves than they have to."

Instead they made t-shirts.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what exactly is offensive about the t-shirts. Graphically they say show nothing offensive, they do use the word dick on the shirt, which some might feel the word is offensive, but it's a harmless image. Well, I guess it's not harmless if you know the the references to the comic being made on the shirt simply by the name Dickwolves being on the shirt...



Edit: Here is the statement that was made by Jerry Holkins on the day the Dickwolves strip aired:

Jerry Holkins (Tycho Brahe) wrote:Something that is discussed with some frequency around here is how the quickly an MMO reverts to its default state, ready for the next bus-full of level appropriate tourists to do whatever that zone desperately requires. Whenever something happens outside this cycle - like WoW’s phasing (which gets fairly elaborate by the time Cataclysm rolls around) or a dynamic party matching up against a tough public quest in WAR - it’s exhilarating. And then you go collect your hooves.

Gabriel told me about a quest he’d done, thought it might make a good comic, and I’m of the opinion that he was correct. MMOs like the second Guild Wars or Star Wars: The Old Republic are attempting, in their way, to make their worlds more coherent: the former is doing so with scaling world events, the latter by breeding the traditional MMO with single-player DNA. Of course, this assumes that nonsense is even a problem for the genre. World of Warcraft doesn’t appear to be hurting any as a result of its pragmatism.

Edit: I bolded the statements that I thought were related to each other.

Edit: It should be noted that one cannot actually save more slaves than are required by the quest as once you've saved the number of slaves required, it doesn't let you interact with any more slaves.

 cincydooley wrote:
My undrestanding is that people (presumably fans) let them know they were offended and he reacted by basically rubbing it in their faces. Is that right?

You might want to become informed on the timeline.
http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline

They provided the shirt without any rubbing of faces. They have a tendency to provide merch for popular strips. That was certainly a popular strip.

PA also actively requested some of the jerks who were 'fighting in their name' to cut the crap.
NSFW Language in Spoiler


PA also responded sarcastically to people who tried to troll them or pull them out. Again, pretty par for the course when someone trolls you on twitter.

They probably shouldn't have responded to anyone, but they did. It isn't the first time they have had to deal with trolls and jerks on the internet. It just so happens that these ones were associated with the dickwolf controversy.

I don't think it's the shirt itself, Alf. It's the monetizing of the situation, I think.

Honestly, It seems like an unabashed example of Krahulik not wanting to be wrong, and then using his klout to force his "not wrongness" down other people's throats with an embarassing lack of thoughtfulness and tact.

 cincydooley wrote:
I don't think it's the shirt itself, Alf. It's the monetizing of the situation, I think.

Honestly, It seems like an unabashed example of Krahulik not wanting to be wrong, and then using his klout to force his "not wrongness" down other people's throats with an embarassing lack of thoughtfulness and tact.

I really think you are misreading it. Read through what they actually wrote rather than just taking other people's words for it.

Which amendment was signed that gave people the right to not be offended?

September 10, 2010 - Mike draws a dickwolf for the audience

And that's the catalyst right there. Instead of letting it die, he draws a dickwolf. Then they make a t-shirt.

Again, it just seems like a string of poor decisions based on bravado and ego with Krahulik refusing to be 'wrong.'


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Jesus, not to mention he continues to joke about rape culture.

Listen, I get that the first ammendment protects speech like this, and that he's legally not in the wrong. But his actions make it impossible to feel sorry for him. He's as culpable for not letting it die as anyone.