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 cincydooley wrote:
September 10, 2010 - Mike draws a dickwolf for the audience

And that's the catalyst right there. Instead of letting it die, he draws a dickwolf. Then they make a t-shirt.

Basically at audience request.

Jesus, not to mention he continues to joke about rape culture.

Because people are trolling him on twitter. Whatever man, you've made your mind up before you even looked at all the facts.

 pretre wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
September 10, 2010 - Mike draws a dickwolf for the audience

And that's the catalyst right there. Instead of letting it die, he draws a dickwolf. Then they make a t-shirt.

Basically at audience request.

So have the integrity to say no. It's really that simple. Regardless of whether or not you think you're right, there are times when the decision could be made to swallow your fething pride and be man. He failed at that. Again, it would have been as simple as saying something like:

"Listen guys, I know many of you like the comic, and I think it stands up well as an indictment of these types of quests and the ethical quagmire they present in WoW, but lets leave it at that. At Penny Arcade, we recognize and understand the inherent misogyny in the video game industry and how hard it can be for females to feel welcomed. We don't condone rape at all, and that's that."

There are SOOOOOO many opportunities for him to make a mature, responsible decision as somone with sway in the industry, and he simply doesn't. He could have cut the head off right there. That statement admits no wrongdoing while at the same time acknowledging the concerns of some of the fans.

Instead he drew the dickwolf.

And then made t-shirts.

And then joked on Twitter about rape culture.

Listen, I don't think the comic is wrong at all. I actually think it could lead to a great discussion about the morality of those types of quests. But he did literally nothing to stop the bleeding.

 cincydooley wrote:
I don't think it's the shirt itself, Alf. It's the monetizing of the situation, I think.

Honestly, It seems like an unabashed example of Krahulik not wanting to be wrong, and then using his klout to force his "not wrongness" down other people's throats with an embarassing lack of thoughtfulness and tact.

Where's Gloria Allred when you need her. This would be perfect. PAX isn't a Republican is he?

 cincydooley wrote:
But he did literally nothing to stop the bleeding.

You know how I know you didn't actually read through the timeline or research anything? Because you keep making factually incorrect statements.

January 26, 2011 - Dickwolf merchandise removed from Penny Arcade store
January 29, 2011 - On the Penny Arcade blog, Mike explains why the merchandise was removed.
January 30, 2011- Mike privately tells DickWolvington to knock it off.
February 3, 2011 -
- Mike of Penny Arcade comments, asking for the harassment and threats to stop on all sides.

There's more, but I'm not going to read the whole timeline for you...

Did he respond to people trolling him by trolling them back? Yes. Did he also try to get people to stop being jerks on his side? Yes. Was he 100% right? Absolutely not. But saying he did nothing but make it worse is just incorrect.

 pretre wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
There's a huge difference between offending someone and making light of a very serious crime that destroys lives. And like people have already said, it's not even the initial comic strip that did it; its the subsequent insensitive asshattery that followed.

The asshattery wouldn't have occurred if people didn't get their panties in a twist over something that really has nothing to do with 'a very serious crime that destroys lives'.

Were the folks (on either side) right in taunting and escalating things? Absolutely not. Should this have ever come up in the first place? No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
If you're going to argue that, it follows that you must also argue that no potentially offensive subject, nor anything related can ever, ever be the topic of a joke.

And this would be a crime. Think of all the good horribly offensive jokes we'd miss out on.

Some people in this world still have the morality to know when things cross the line.

I understand this is the internet but come on.

 pities2004 wrote:
Some people in this world still have the morality to know when things cross the line.

I understand this is the internet but come on.

Unfortunately, the line is different for everyone. A comic about raping dickwolves on a site where one of the main characters is a machine that feths fruit? Not over the line. On disney.com? Over the line.

If you don't like Penny Arcade's comics, don't read them.

 pretre wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:
If you lost a child, how would you react to me saying "Hey hows the kids? OH THAT'S RIGHT HUR DUR" and proceeding to put a picture of something equally inflammatory on a shirt just to wear around you. Bit of an extreme yes, but the point stands.

Bad analogy is bad.

If I lost a kid and there was a comic on the internet that tangentially referred to dead children, I probably wouldn't care. If there was a shirt that referenced that tangential reference, I also wouldn't care. I would feel bad that people made a big freaking deal out of nothing though.

(and yes, I am a parent and losing either of my children terrifies me. That doesn't mean that I think people shouldn't make jokes on the internet about dead kids anymore though. Especially if they are not directly about that topic, as the dickwolves were not really about real rape. They were about WOW quests and the rape of NPCS by mythical dick-armed wolves.)

Not at all. Something traumatic and terrible happens to you. Some donkey cave makes a joke. Yeah, fine. He then proceeds to whip up the nearby people into joining in and rubbing it in your face until you listen and react, then says "hey stop being touchy it's not like it was that bad what happened to you". And again, no one's questioning the comic. It raised a valid point. However as far as i'm aware of the crazy american laws, the fifth amendment means he can say what he likes. It doesn't mean people can't react to what he says or disagree. He took a pretty horrible thing and ramped it up to 11 just for what? Publicity? Because he could? Because he can't seem to realize that there's always a line?

 doc1234 wrote:
Not at all. Something traumatic and terrible happens to you. Some donkey cave makes a joke. Yeah, fine. He then proceeds to whip up the nearby people into joining in and rubbing it in your face until you listen and react, then says "hey stop being touchy it's not like it was that bad what happened to you".

I think you are also not aware of what actually happened or you are just REALLY bad at making analogies because this has almost nothing to do with what actually happened.

 cincydooley wrote:
But he did literally nothing to stop the bleeding.

Sir, that's incredibly offensive and in poor taste, given that this is a thread already about how evil rape jokes are. You of all the people sensitive to the issue should know that vaginal bleeding is a common side-effect of rape and as a result should have better picked your words, rather than cracking bad puns.

I'm doubleplus offended. Double. Plus.

 daedalus wrote:
I'm doubleplus offended. Double. Plus.

Careful, cincy might make a t-shirt.

I believe I'm on Team Dickwolves for this one.

I wasn't offended by the original comic, the follow on stuff from Gabe, or anything else. But I'm also an enormous PA fan and super, super biased and also have a terrible sense of humor myself.

After seeing that the rewards for their Kickstarter were basically a huge ego trip I stopped caring about them.

On the topic of Dickwolves, it was a funny comic, the followup to the backlash was also a funny comic. Is raping bad? Yes.

I honestly don't see why this is a huge issue, but then again everybody is getting their panties in a twist about everything these days.

Wasn't the original Dickwolves comic one about the local sports team, which was named after Dick Wolf?

here is the comic that everyone bitches about:

 Cyporiean wrote:
Wasn't the original Dickwolves comic one about the local sports team, which was named after Dick Wolf?

here is the comic that everyone bitches about:

Spoiler:

OH GOD THE HORROR SPOILER THAT!

Oh wait

 pretre wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
But he did literally nothing to stop the bleeding.

You know how I know you didn't actually read through the timeline or research anything? Because you keep making factually incorrect statements.

January 26, 2011 - Dickwolf merchandise removed from Penny Arcade store
January 29, 2011 - On the Penny Arcade blog, Mike explains why the merchandise was removed.
January 30, 2011- Mike privately tells DickWolvington to knock it off.
February 3, 2011 -
- Mike of Penny Arcade comments, asking for the harassment and threats to stop on all sides.

There's more, but I'm not going to read the whole timeline for you...

Did he respond to people trolling him by trolling them back? Yes. Did he also try to get people to stop being jerks on his side? Yes. Was he 100% right? Absolutely not. But saying he did nothing but make it worse is just incorrect.

No, I read it. I just didn't see much sincerity in that "apology".

Not only that, but all of the timeline gak you post here came FAR after he'd already made 2 or 3 bad decisions.

Never really cared for PA.

On their side here though. Not on the crazed mob fan's side though.

Also, there is no such thing as bad taste in comedy.

 pretre wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I'm doubleplus offended. Double. Plus.

Careful, cincy might make a t-shirt.

I'm not offended by the comic. I think it raises a ton of a valid points that could have led to some legitimate discussion regarding the ethical ramifications of quests like that in a video game, and what that says about the player base. I'm put off by his incredibly poor handling of the criticism he received from people that read the comic. Hell, I proposed a pretty simple statement that would have helped diffuse the situation pretty quickly. For an organization that claims to want to be female inclusive, this would have been an incredible moment to speak out about that. We all know that misogyny in that industry is rampant. It's evident from the responses to this that a large group of the penny arcade audience consists of immature boys with little to no respect for women. It could have been an incredible "teachable moment," as it were, for penny arcade to take a stand and make a statement, and they could have done so without admitting any wrong doing in the strip in question. I won't pretend like my proposed statement is perfect, but Jesus, it would have done worlds to stem the gak storm that followed.

Like it or not, their strip serves as a moral compass for some of their audience (again evidenced by some of the reactions on twitter). They have to know that. And they had to know that being further antagonistic would have only frothed up the masses. Which it did.

And seriously, don't liken someone "raping" fruit to the raping of people. It's ignorant.

 cincydooley wrote:
misogyny

Ohboyherewego.jpg

I really want that shirt now!

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
misogyny

Ohboyherewego.jpg

What's the dickwolf equivalent of misogyny? Or more properly npcgyny?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I like that bringing up one kind of completely fictional tape is ignorant but talking about wolves with dicks for every appendage taping people isn't. Sigh.

Another point:

The creators of Cyanide & Happiness are consistently making jokes about AIDS, but I haven't seen any backlash over that.

I'm joining "The Skins Are Too Damned Thin" party. We'll be nominating Andrew Dice Clay as our Chairman after a screening of Ford Fairlane.

 Breotan wrote:
I'm joining "The Skins Are Too Damned Thin" party. We'll be nominating Andrew Dice Clay as our Chairman after a screening of Ford Fairlane.

Your fingerless gloves, hair gel, and copy of the Aristocrats will be shipped to your domicile shortly.

In the real world, no one cares.

While I agree with a lot of the people talking about overreaction, I think both sides are pretty damn stupid when you get down to the brass tacks.

 curran12 wrote:
While I agree with a lot of the people talking about overreaction, I think both sides are pretty damn stupid when you get down to the brass tacks.

Well, if we're talking BRASS TACKS, then EVERYONE sucks. Always.

That was an interesting read. It's unfortunate the OP blogger won't be attending further PAXs, but she should do what she feels is best for her safety and peace of mind. I'm also glad I read the PA clarification. It added some important points.

I have been a long time PA reader and member of their community. From the days of The Bench to now, from their first book to their most recent, and to this day I've got a number of PA t-shirts in my wardrobe. I am definitely a fan. And as someone who read through hundreds of pages directly or tangentially related to the Dickwolf controversy as it happened, it was not a good time for them. Honestly, I do like the original comic, as an old school WoW player it hits on some nostalgia and points out the premise in a "nobody should see how the sausage is made" kind of way. It's a conceit we accept; there are a hundred forced slaves working a mine, we're tasked with rescuing 5 of them, good luck to the rest!

The follow up, however, was distasteful on a lot of levels. The drawing, the follow up comic, the merchandise, the twitter wars, the simply uncalled for responses by people lashing out. Rape and death threats against rape victims who are unhappy about rape jokes certainly isn't a new low for the internet, but it's not helping either.

I've always wanted to go to PAX, and have been lax in at least getting to PAX East in the years since it has developed (I continue to hope for a PAX North, but that's probably a ways off). Will this controversy alter that? No. But as a straight white 6'3" male, my privilege is my shield. :-P

But it does make me cognizant of the issues and concerns of those who do feel objectified, who don't feel as safe as they should, and while it's an issue our society (hell, our species) has been working on for a long time and will probably outlast any of us here, that doesn't mean that these discussions shouldn't take place. I'm glad they do, seeing the perspective of others who live different lives based on any number of factors is always fascinating, and helps fill in the gaps where empathy fails me.

As Socrates said, 'wisest is he who knows that he knows not' (or something to that effect, anyway), and man, what I don't know about living life as a woman or a sexual or ethnic minority could fill whole libraries.

People in general like to find things to get upset about. It's interesting to go through the comments and see people claim to be rape victims and that the comic isn't that big of a deal, while those that don't claim to be victims make it into a big deal.

And all this because of a comic about crappy quests and dick monsters raping video game NPC's.

I'd wear the shirt.

There have been quite a few rape jokes in PA over the years. No one should have been surprised by this one...

NSFW and hidden behind spoiler: