Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Friend and I are sitting down flipping through the rules which apply to our SM armies and we have a slight disagreement. I believe Bolter Drill applies to Primarch's Wrath, my friend says it doesn't (though I think he just wants to deny me the re-roll on it). I mean, it clearly says "with... boltguns" and the PW says "ancient boltgun," so I beleive it applies to PW. What say you, noble Dakka members?

Primarch's Wrath: THE PRIMARCH's WRATH
The ancient boltgun known as the Primarch 's Wrath is believed
to have come from the personal weapons collection of Roboute
Guilliman...

Range" 24 Str 4 AP4 Salvo 3/5, shred, Master-Crafted


Bolter Drill: Models in this detachment may re-roll all To
Hit rolls of l made with bolt pistols, boltguns, storm bolters,
heavy bolters, or combi-weapons that are firing as boltguns.
This rule does not apply to Hellfire, Kraken, Vengeance or
Dragonfire rounds.


Thanks in advance!

It's description calls it a boltgun? It's a boltgun. I think you should be good.

It's not a Boltgun in rules, only in fluff. It's a Primarch's Wrath, ergo, no, it wouldn't be affected by Bolter Drill.

It really doesn't matter because Primarchs Wrath is master crafted and already gets a reroll

 tsadkiel wrote:
It really doesn't matter because Primarchs Wrath is master crafted and already gets a reroll

It would since Master-Crafted grants a single re-roll, while Bolter Drill allows all rolls of 1 to be re-done. Still doesn't change the fact that it's not affected by such a rule.

 tsadkiel wrote:
It really doesn't matter because Primarchs Wrath is master crafted and already gets a reroll

Good point, still was wondering what the rules would be.

I suppose the same question could be asked about Dorn's Arrow on Pedro. It's clearly stated to be a storm bolter in the fluff, but it has a different profile from normal stormbolters.

So when is a stormbolter not a stormbolter, and a bolter not a bolter?

Speaking as a Dark Angel player, remember that a storm bolter is not a bolter, but a hurricane bolter is a bolter. I doubt it works on the special weapon. It's not clearly labeled as bolter so it wouldn't have an affect on it.

DogofWar1 wrote:
I suppose the same question could be asked about Dorn's Arrow on Pedro. It's clearly stated to be a storm bolter in the fluff, but it has a different profile from normal stormbolters.

So when is a stormbolter not a stormbolter, and a bolter not a bolter?

Models in this detachment may re-mll all To
Hit rolls of l made with bolt pistols, boltguns, storm bolters,
heavy bolters, or combi-weapons that

Dom's Arrow: This ancient and venerated storm bolter has
reaped a mighty tally in the Emperor's name.
Range s AP Type
24" 4 4 Assault 4

Seems like this would get re-rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

icefire78 wrote:
Speaking as a Dark Angel player, remember that a storm bolter is not a bolter, but a hurricane bolter is a bolter. I doubt it works on the special weapon. It's not clearly labeled as bolter so it wouldn't have an affect on it.

Bolter drill works on more than just bolters, as it includes "storm bolters" are included.

 Ryan_A wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
I suppose the same question could be asked about Dorn's Arrow on Pedro. It's clearly stated to be a storm bolter in the fluff, but it has a different profile from normal stormbolters.

So when is a stormbolter not a stormbolter, and a bolter not a bolter?

Models in this detachment may re-mll all To
Hit rolls of l made with bolt pistols, boltguns, storm bolters,
heavy bolters, or combi-weapons that

Dom's Arrow: This ancient and venerated storm bolter has
reaped a mighty tally in the Emperor's name.
Range s AP Type
24" 4 4 Assault 4

Seems like this would get re-rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

icefire78 wrote:
Speaking as a Dark Angel player, remember that a storm bolter is not a bolter, but a hurricane bolter is a bolter. I doubt it works on the special weapon. It's not clearly labeled as bolter so it wouldn't have an affect on it.

Bolter drill works on more than just bolters, as it includes "storm bolters" are included.

Yes, but Dorn's Arrow is only a Storm Bolter in fluff. That's it. If it actually said something like "This is counted as a Storm Bolter" then yes, it could be affected by BD.

Hurricane Bolters are clearly labelled as "Three Twin-Linked Boltguns", whereas Dorn's Arrow and the Primarch's Wrath both have their own profiles, rendering them unique ranged weapons, regardless of what the fluff states.

Technicly a Bolter is not labeled as a bolt gun other then in fluff and is thus an invalid target for bolter drill. Just FYI.

Edit: What do you know. I'm wrong and its not a bolter in the space marine codex. Well time for me to go home and sit in the shame corner.

As much as I would like this to fall under the bolter drill, bolter drill clearly states which weapons count as bolters on the weapon page in the main rulebook. Man how I wish assault cannons counted too.

I have a feeling that this will get FAQed to count seeing as the whole GK plasma thing got FAQed to include fluffy plasma weapons. Sadly, this is a case of fluff != rules.

Not that i want to get hit by that thing with re-rolls, but it does say it is an "ancient BOLTGUN", which to me says it works with bolter drill. It may be a special boltgun, but it's still a boltgun.

 Homeskillet wrote:
Not that i want to get hit by that thing with re-rolls, but it does say it is an "ancient BOLTGUN", which to me says it works with bolter drill. It may be a special boltgun, but it's still a boltgun.

Thats what I don't get, I think people are saying that the description is fluff,but to me, weapon description is weapon description, if it says bolter or stormbolter then that is what it is classified as, unless somebody can cite a FAQ or rule that counters this (which I believe someone will, I still would like to see it).

Edit: This discussion for me is more important when concerning Dorn's Arrow:
"Dorn's Arrow: This ancient and venerated storm bolter has
reaped a mighty tally in the Emperor's name."

Cleary says storm bolter.

And Bolter Drill:
"...re-roll all To
Hit rolls of l made with bolt pistols, boltguns, storm bolters,
heavy bolters, or combi-weapons that are firing as boltguns..."

clearly says applies to storm bolters.

 Ryan_A wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Not that i want to get hit by that thing with re-rolls, but it does say it is an "ancient BOLTGUN", which to me says it works with bolter drill. It may be a special boltgun, but it's still a boltgun.

Thats what I don't get, I think people are saying that the description is fluff,but to me, weapon description is weapon description, if it says bolter or stormbolter then that is what it is classified as, unless somebody can cite a FAQ or rule that counters this (which I believe someone will, I still would like to see it).

Edit: This discussion for me is more important when concerning Dorn's Arrow:
"Dorn's Arrow: This ancient and venerated storm bolter has
reaped a mighty tally in the Emperor's name."

Cleary says storm bolter.

And Bolter Drill:
"...re-roll all To
Hit rolls of l made with bolt pistols, boltguns, storm bolters,
heavy bolters, or combi-weapons that are firing as boltguns..."

clearly says applies to storm bolters.

Where in the Bolter Drill rule does it say it applies specifically to Dorn's Arrow?

This is similar to Hot-Shot Lasguns being affected by FRFSRF, which was FAQed otherwise, proving that descriptions of rules are not to be taken as RAW. Storm Bolters, the Primarch's Wrath and Dorn's Arrow are all separate weapons, and until an FAQ says otherwise to include fluffy Bolt Weapons in Bolter Drill, they'll remain unaffected.

 Valkyrie wrote:
It's not a Boltgun in rules, only in fluff. It's a Primarch's Wrath, ergo, no, it wouldn't be affected by Bolter Drill.

Pulse Rifles are only plasma weapons in their fluff but the GK Plasma Siphon works on them....

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
It's not a Boltgun in rules, only in fluff. It's a Primarch's Wrath, ergo, no, it wouldn't be affected by Bolter Drill.

Pulse Rifles are only plasma weapons in their fluff but the GK Plasma Siphon works on them....

Because that was FAQed to include Pulse weapons. For that argument to work we'd have to wait for an SM FAQ.

 Valkyrie wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
It's not a Boltgun in rules, only in fluff. It's a Primarch's Wrath, ergo, no, it wouldn't be affected by Bolter Drill.

Pulse Rifles are only plasma weapons in their fluff but the GK Plasma Siphon works on them....

Because that was FAQed to include Pulse weapons. For that argument to work we'd have to wait for an SM FAQ.

I'm not arguing that it'd need to be FAQ'd, just pointing out precedence for fluff being used to determine what is affected.

It is just not fluff, it is a description. And description says Dorn's Arrow is a Stormbolter.

 Crimson wrote:
It is just not fluff, it is a description. And description says Dorn's Arrow is a Stormbolter.

Thank you! That is what I keep saying! I don't get where they keep saying it is fluff.

i just sent an email to GW asking about this, and if characters can take multiple relics. i'll post here when/if i get an answer.

 hivetyrant765 wrote:
i just sent an email to GW asking about this, and if characters can take multiple relics. i'll post here when/if i get an answer.

Thank you! I wonder if they will respond, if they do, I may send them an email about the whole drop pod scandal lol (I think the US will tell us what really goes on at Area 51 before GW answers our questions about drop pods lol).

For my money, both of them are affected by Bolter Drill. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

 Jimsolo wrote:
For my money, both of them are affected by Bolter Drill. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

Ya, thats what I am thinking.

 hivetyrant765 wrote:
i just sent an email to GW asking about this, and if characters can take multiple relics. i'll post here when/if i get an answer.

Generally, emails to GW have very little weight in discussions on here.

 Crimson wrote:
It is just not fluff, it is a description. And description says Dorn's Arrow is a Stormbolter.

A description is not rules though, therefore it is fluff.

Judging by the plasma siphon though it will probably effect anything that, in the fluff, is a storm bolter.

 Crimson wrote:
It is just not fluff, it is a description. And description says Dorn's Arrow is a Stormbolter.

Look at the Shield Eternal on p.127. While it's described as a Storm Shield this is also backed up in the actual rules for the wargear, which says "It is a Storm Shield" with additional effects on top of that. If they had wanted to do the same with Dorn's Arrow then they would have said "This is counted as a Storm Bolter with the following profile...". The itallic text must be ignored when it comes to actually determining the rules and effects of the equipment at hand.

 Valkyrie wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is just not fluff, it is a description. And description says Dorn's Arrow is a Stormbolter.

Look at the Shield Eternal on p.127. While it's described as a Storm Shield this is also backed up in the actual rules for the wargear, which says "It is a Storm Shield" with additional effects on top of that. If they had wanted to do the same with Dorn's Arrow then they would have said "This is counted as a Storm Bolter with the following profile...". The itallic text must be ignored when it comes to actually determining the rules and effects of the equipment at hand.

I disagree, because I want to reroll 1's on Dorn's Arrow. I have no other reason for disagreeing after that point.

 Ryan_A wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is just not fluff, it is a description. And description says Dorn's Arrow is a Stormbolter.

Look at the Shield Eternal on p.127. While it's described as a Storm Shield this is also backed up in the actual rules for the wargear, which says "It is a Storm Shield" with additional effects on top of that. If they had wanted to do the same with Dorn's Arrow then they would have said "This is counted as a Storm Bolter with the following profile...". The itallic text must be ignored when it comes to actually determining the rules and effects of the equipment at hand.

I disagree, because I want to reroll 1's on Dorn's Arrow. I have no other reason for disagreeing after that point.

And that shows that you're not arguing because it's how you read the rules.