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So in my current list im already running 1 skyhammer storm talon. However the question is now whether I want a second talon or the new hunter tank.
Note that im also considering the stalker but it seems, tbh, to not really be worth it over the skyhammer.'

Sure you get 4 twin linked autocannon shots, but frmo the front and ur only realistically looking at 1 pen and 1 glance on a helldrake at ap 4 with no interceptor.
I think i'd rather have the talon for that.

Pros for hunter:
- it's 55 cheaper than a skyhammer talon.
- The main gun is str 7, ap 2 armourbane with 60 inch range. Although only skyfire it CAN hit skimmer targets, and a from a range such that only the wave serpent can really hit back.
So that means:
Annihilation barges, opposing skyrays, wave serpents, speeders are all full bs targets.
Furthermore with the range and armourbane if it hits the hunter will pen with better odds than a LC and likely at minimum stun it.
- av 12 side
- you dont lose your shot if it misses against FMCs and flyers it sticks around ane re-hits on a 5-6 later, so next round you get ur main shot and the tracking missile shot to boot

Cons for hunter:
- just 1 shot at bs 4, not twin linked, no savant lock against skimmers.

Pros for a second skyhammer talon
- more maneuverable,
- 4 AC shots and 3 autocannon shots, shoots at bs 5 vs ground targets
- the turret on the AC lets it hit flyers from behind where they are more likely to be av 10
- having 2 means that one is a lot more likely to survive and keep shooting

Cons fo are a second skyhammer talon:
- 2 HP
- going to struggle at any vehicle targets that it cant get a rear arc on
- 55 more points
- 2 HP

So this is my current dilemma, which is more useful? The hunter has the benefit of being great against both drakes and wave serpents, arguably 2 of our biggest metas for about half the cost of each.
Furthermore with av12 and range it's arguable a smidge more durable.

The talon, on the other hand, is more accurate with a lot more firepower, but it's only better at shooting down vehicles if it gets a rear arc/av10. It is, however, better at infantry/MCs just by virtue of the number of shots, along with any demon/armourless FMCs

Note that the points saved only running 1 talon could let it become an LC talon instead?

Out of the three, my vote is the Talon. I know my lists rarely have the points to spare so I need as muc utility as I can get. Only a few of my opponents use skimmers, a few others use flyers. My most competitive opponents do not use either and really on really nasty shooty MCs which the new tanks do not help with at all. It all depends on your meta. That said, in my meta, a Talon by itself is dead meat. I have to overwhelm my opponent's skyfire and interceptor.

Talon with Lascannons every time for me.

It takes out other flyers and can be used on other ground tanks.

I like the Hunter, but I can't find a space for it in my crowded HS Section.

I think I like the Stalker because while the Talon is nice it's a lot of points for something to be Intercepted itself. And the Hunter only has the one shot with a 1/3 chance after. I think players will just move the flyer off the board and kill the hunter in their turn. You also don't mention that the Stalker can pick off two targets (with tl shooting) I see more use in my local meta as it's not one flyer/skimmer but several.

You left out the Hunters must glaring con; no Interceptor. There will be games when the opponent has no flyers or skimmers, and then it hits everything on 6's. It is highly limited in what it can do, and while not a bad unit, the Talon would be a better buy for its flexibility.

A small note: the Hunter deals an equal amount of Explodes result to a Baledrake than a Stormtalon w/Skyhammer.

I think the biggest issue here is that the Stormtalon is very risky (your opponent can blow it off from the sky with an angry gaze) and the Hunter occupies a very valuable HS slot. Another problem with the Stormtalon is that it is a harassment unit and not a force of destruction - its damage output is insufficient to seriously threaten a Baledrake or a Wave Serpent but it can make them feel uncomfortable. On the other hand, the Hunter has this one-trick pony feel when he either does lots of damage or nothing.

Personally, i would take a Stormraven .

 AtoMaki wrote:
I think the biggest issue here is that the Stormtalon is very risky (your opponent can blow it off from the sky with an angry gaze) and the Hunter occupies a very valuable HS slot. Another problem with the Stormtalon is that it is a harassment unit and not a force of destruction - its damage output is insufficient to seriously threaten a Baledrake or a Wave Serpent but it can make them feel uncomfortable. On the other hand, the Hunter has this one-trick pony feel when he either does lots of damage or nothing.

Two Talons coming on after the Drake and firing TL Assault Cannons into its rear account for a Drake a turn on average. And the Drake has no way to counter it since they are behind it. That's a serious threat to Drakes. Sure, Havocs can shoot the Talons down, but as you said, they are good harassment units, and now the Chaos army is shooting at probably the least valuable unit in the army.

As for Serpents, Talons shouldn't be firing at Serpents; that's what Grav Bikes are for.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I think the biggest issue here is that the Stormtalon is very risky (your opponent can blow it off from the sky with an angry gaze) and the Hunter occupies a very valuable HS slot. Another problem with the Stormtalon is that it is a harassment unit and not a force of destruction - its damage output is insufficient to seriously threaten a Baledrake or a Wave Serpent but it can make them feel uncomfortable. On the other hand, the Hunter has this one-trick pony feel when he either does lots of damage or nothing.

Two Talons coming on after the Drake and firing TL Assault Cannons into its rear account for a Drake a turn on average. And the Drake has no way to counter it since they are behind it. That's a serious threat to Drakes. Sure, Havocs can shoot the Talons down, but as you said, they are good harassment units, and now the Chaos army is shooting at probably the least valuable unit in the army.

But at this rate, you can also rely on a lucky penetrating hit on the Baledrake from the Hunter that goes through its invi save and explodes that thing. I mean, getting the angle for the Stormtalons probably has a similar probability.

Also, firing the AC at the Baledrake's back isn't that super-duper effective: 1.17 HP damage and 0.12 Explodes result (note: the Hunter causes 0.09) isn't a huge deal.

Hence my quandry, I already have 1 talon, but it comes down to the second. I have a free HS slot (my others are TFC and whirlwind), if I went the hunter route it would let me upgrade the whirlwind to another TFC or get more combi-gravs elsewhere.

Im concerned that neither 2 talons or talon + hunter is enough AA but im only looking at 67 free points right now in my army so im not sure what else would really help.

Largo39 wrote:
Hence my quandry, I already have 1 talon, but it comes down to the second. I have a free HS slot (my others are TFC and whirlwind), if I went the hunter route it would let me upgrade the whirlwind to another TFC or get more combi-gravs elsewhere.

I would recommend the Hunter+second TFC route. A Stormtalon+Hunter should be enough or squeeze in a Stormraven.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I think the biggest issue here is that the Stormtalon is very risky (your opponent can blow it off from the sky with an angry gaze) and the Hunter occupies a very valuable HS slot. Another problem with the Stormtalon is that it is a harassment unit and not a force of destruction - its damage output is insufficient to seriously threaten a Baledrake or a Wave Serpent but it can make them feel uncomfortable. On the other hand, the Hunter has this one-trick pony feel when he either does lots of damage or nothing.

Two Talons coming on after the Drake and firing TL Assault Cannons into its rear account for a Drake a turn on average. And the Drake has no way to counter it since they are behind it. That's a serious threat to Drakes. Sure, Havocs can shoot the Talons down, but as you said, they are good harassment units, and now the Chaos army is shooting at probably the least valuable unit in the army.

But at this rate, you can also rely on a lucky penetrating hit on the Baledrake from the Hunter that goes through its invi save and explodes that thing. I mean, getting the angle for the Stormtalons probably has a similar probability.

Also, firing the AC at the Baledrake's back isn't that super-duper effective: 1.17 HP damage and 0.12 Explodes result (note: the Hunter causes 0.09) isn't a huge deal.

No you can't rely on a lucky penetrating hit. The chances of the Hunter 1 shotting the Heldrake is just over 10%. As for you assertion about the Stormtalon in the rear armour, the aim isnt to one-shot the Drake with a single Talon (better to use two to strip it down, which only takes a little beyond average rolls to do in one go), but the odds of it happening are just over 12%, so greater than the Hunter, however the Talon is flexible and can perform several other battlefield roles whereas the Hunter performs only a single role while also competing for the hot Heavy slot. IMO there's no contest, but I know you just don't like the Talon for whatever reason, so I won't tell you to use one. That being said, that doesn't automatically make the Hunter a better choice, if you just don't want to take a Talon, a Raven is better than a Hunter, though you are paying a lot more for it.

Any thoughts that in the Heavy Weapons list there are flakk missiles? Throw some of those in a squad or two (scouts get them as well) and you got your AA covered.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

No you can't rely on a lucky penetrating hit.

And you can't rely on getting into the Baledrake's back. Doh .

 Talizvar wrote:
Any thoughts that in the Heavy Weapons list there are flakk missiles? Throw some of those in a squad or two (scouts get them as well) and you got your AA covered.

For +10 points/ML and with only a single S7 AP4 shot/weapon it is quite underwhelming.

Godless: note that I already have at least 1 talon, furthermore the hunter can also target our other biggest threats (wave serpents, annihilation barges, and skyrays to protect the talon for that matter), also is that 2% worth nearly being double in points?

Im not arguing that talons are bad and hunters are awesomesauce, im wondering if hunter + talon is about the same, better, or fundamentally worse than 2 talons. Im also wondering if either is enough aa at all.

Note that FW is also an acceptable discussion here too, I had previously been running hyperios and a las mortis contemptor with CML, but given that those 2 AA solutions are over 300 points and the morti's recently got dropped to BS4... i figured it's time to swap them out.

I could, alternatly, use my extra 70 points to get 2 hyperios's, they just tend to be not as accurate and somewhat underwhelming in the end.

 Talizvar wrote:
Any thoughts that in the Heavy Weapons list there are flakk missiles? Throw some of those in a squad or two (scouts get them as well) and you got your AA covered.

I've been playing with 3 tac squads with a Flakk ML for a few months now (using CA.) They're pretty lackluster. If you go Imperial Fists and give them Tank Hunters they might be more of a threat, but I'm sorely tempted to just agree with the Internet and say MLs suck.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

No you can't rely on a lucky penetrating hit.

And you can't rely on getting into the Baledrake's back. Doh .

Sorry, what the hell are you talking about? A 10% chance of destruction is dependent on dice. Getting into the Drake's rear is dependent on you flying your flying Storm Talon past it and turning the turret Assault Cannon. There's no chance involved, just a single brain cell of intelligence. I'm not sure how one earth you thought you couldn't depend on it, it's like saying you can't depend on your Marine to move 6" in the open. The only way it isn't happening is if the Drake barely advanced onto the table, which rarely happens since it wants to come and torch your army, and if this does happen, well you probably didn't get torched, and can now shoot it in the front and try and stop it doing it next turn with all you've got. It's a win-win situation.

Largo39 wrote:
Godless: note that I already have at least 1 talon, furthermore the hunter can also target our other biggest threats (wave serpents, annihilation barges, and skyrays to protect the talon for that matter), also is that 2% worth nearly being double in points?

Except that 2% increase isn't all you are getting for the 55pts extra is it? You get more guns for one, you get a unit that can shoot at more than just flyers and skimmers (in fact it is BS5 against other targets), you get a unit that is harder to hit, you get a unit that causes Pinning, you get a unit with great mobility, you get more flexibility, and since it is that big a deal I will add in for a second time the fact that it has more than just two viable types of target. The whole reason the Hunter is so cheaper is that it doesn't have Interceptor, but that shows just how big a drawback that it is.

Though given that you aren't arguing in favour of the Hunter over Talon, I would like to suggest to you that if 2 Talons doesn't suit your fancy, consider a Talon escorting a Raven. And since FW is in your ballpark, take a look at those AA Contemptors; two of them might be better than any of this stuff from what I've heard.

Do you have a full list posted in the army lists section Largo, as seeing that might be a better way to judge the best units for you.

interesting though at that point id rather just, for 5 less points base, have another talon AND a hunter and render this argument moot.

so far im leaning towards getting the best of both worlds and doing 2 talons and a hunter (or, if i get crimped elsewhere in my army, 2 hunters and a talon). I had a whirlwind as part of my HS but hoenstly i think the AA power will be more important here. then i can have the hunter in reserve and have a talon escort it in and the other talon escort in something else.

ravens are super expensive for what you get AA wise, talons seem to be better at taking down flyers for sure.

Well there is the bonus that ravens can also go tank hunting or riptide hunting after the fliers are down.

Am I the only one that likes the Stalker better than the Hunter?

Largo39 wrote:
interesting though at that point id rather just, for 5 less points base, have another talon AND a hunter and render this argument moot.

so far im leaning towards getting the best of both worlds and doing 2 talons and a hunter (or, if i get crimped elsewhere in my army, 2 hunters and a talon). I had a whirlwind as part of my HS but hoenstly i think the AA power will be more important here. then i can have the hunter in reserve and have a talon escort it in and the other talon escort in something else.

ravens are super expensive for what you get AA wise, talons seem to be better at taking down flyers for sure.

2 Talons and a Hunter isn't a bad idea at all, especially as the Hunter is good against many of the things that give Talons trouble, i.e. Flyers, and so supports them in a meaningful way. Still leaves room in Heavy support for two Thunderfire Cannons or Whirlwinds also.

Cons for hunter -- that's one less TFC you can take.

It's tru though admittedly I dont actually have the points for more than 1 TFC right now anyways, even if i lose some sternguard or something else in the end i'll still only have enough for a second, so that for now isnt an issue.

Can almost buy 2 hunters for the price of a sky talon.

Hunters are going to suck against a wave serpent because it's pen will get turned into a glance on a 2+ and it probably also has a 4+ kink. Necron and tau skimmers are hit hard by a hunter, especially open topped necron skimmers.

Wave serpents and annihilation barges are really good at shooting down av11 2hp flyers

Just about every top tier army has a good target for a hunter or stalker. Hunters are meh against deamons because FMC can only take 1 wound from a rocket and don't care about armorbane. Stalkers are meh against annihilation barges because s7 v av13 is meh, and glances don't strip qs, but great against scythes. Both tanks seem like a decent buy, I'm just not a fan of storm talons..

That's assuming the serpent hasnt used it's shield though, which more than likely it has, especially on turn 1 when there are no flyer targets for the hunter and the serpent is going for first blood.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Hunters are going to suck against a wave serpent because it's pen will get turned into a glance on a 2+

Only on first turn. I almost never see the serpent shield held as a defensive tool. Were I playing an eldar serpent army I would just shoot the hunter and call it a day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Largo39 wrote:
That's assuming the serpent hasnt used it's shield though, which more than likely it has, especially on turn 1 when there are no flyer targets for the hunter and the serpent is going for first blood.

The problem is that 1-2 serpents can destroy an AV 12 target pretty easily. I've learned this from multiple serpent on serpent battles.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

No you can't rely on a lucky penetrating hit.

And you can't rely on getting into the Baledrake's back. Doh .

Sorry, what the hell are you talking about? A 10% chance of destruction is dependent on dice. Getting into the Drake's rear is dependent on you flying your flying Storm Talon past it and turning the turret Assault Cannon. There's no chance involved, just a single brain cell of intelligence. I'm not sure how one earth you thought you couldn't depend on it, it's like saying you can't depend on your Marine to move 6" in the open. The only way it isn't happening is if the Drake barely advanced onto the table, which rarely happens since it wants to come and torch your army, and if this does happen, well you probably didn't get torched, and can now shoot it in the front and try and stop it doing it next turn with all you've got. It's a win-win situation.

Boy... You are really bad with understanding other people, aren't you?

So, what I'm saying is that you need an opportunity to pull out the "on its back" trick with the Stormtalon - if your opponent is smart then he will either position his Baledrake in such a way that you can't angle the Stormtalon into position or better yet, he will Vector Strike that poor aircraft and destroy it outright. And even then, the Stormtalon has a mere 1% more chance to destroy the Baledrake as the Hunter. So if you can pull out that maneuver, then you gain a whooping +1% to destroy the Baledrake... Sorry if I can't see the huge advantage here ...

The Stormtalon can tear up other units ala Eldar-style shooting when its not hunting fliers. That's something. And the Stormtalon is not heavy support.

more than likely the hunter's best option is to start in reserve so it cant be a FB target for serpents, and then when it come son it can pick its' targets, which helps greatly in surviving the nastiness that is the serpent.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Hunters are going to suck against a wave serpent because it's pen will get turned into a glance on a 2+ and it probably also has a 4+ kink.

Wait, how do Eldar vehicles get a 4+? I thought it was only Dark Eldar that could do that.

 Lansirill wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Hunters are going to suck against a wave serpent because it's pen will get turned into a glance on a 2+ and it probably also has a 4+ kink.

Wait, how do Eldar vehicles get a 4+? I thought it was only Dark Eldar that could do that.

The pen to glance will only happen if they are not shooting the shield which pretty much every dad player does from turn 1 on.

 Lansirill wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Hunters are going to suck against a wave serpent because it's pen will get turned into a glance on a 2+ and it probably also has a 4+ kink.

Wait, how do Eldar vehicles get a 4+? I thought it was only Dark Eldar that could do that.

Holo-Fields. Dark Eldar can't do it at all IIRC.