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It's been discussed before but I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere. There appear to be 3 legal entities revolving around Prodos:

Prodos Ltd (Company 07804204)
PRODOS GAMES LTD (Company 08373380)
and CEREBRUM GAMES LTD (Company 09160536)

Prodos Ltd appears to be a shell from the accounts and only Jarek is a director.

Prodos Games Ltd looks like the active company and has Mark Rapson, Jarek Ever and Michal Pawlaczyk as directors

Cerebrum Games Ltd has the same 3 directors as Prodos Games Ltd but is quite new and hasn't filed any accounts yet.

Prodos Games Ltd is also a Director of TITAN GAMES (LEAMINGTON SPA) (Company 09130219) which looks like an off-shoot of Titan Games Ltd in Staffordshire.

The bit that I'd love to look at is what Cerebrum is set up for - I can totally understand reasons for spinning off different parts of company activities into separate entities, but one of those is to insulate the group against one failure taking down the group - good for the company, less so for any company creditors. The Titan Games thing I'd guess is some sort of dipping the toe in retail, maybe setting up a UK Mail Order arm (speculation) and I doubt it's anything to worry about.

I'd also love to look at Prodos Games Ltd's accounting treatment for the Kickstarter, as their 2014 accounts (as at 31/1/14) state creditors as £73,315 - I'd have thought they would have received all the KS funds at that point, so in that case either they are not showing KS backers as a creditor or they are showing the value at much less than the pledge values e.g. at manufacture cost only (or there's something I haven't thought of). That creditor value is also shown as secured, and I'd doubt that the KS backers count as a secured creditor.

The above can all be found via here:

http://www.checkcompany.co.uk/company/09160536/CEREBRUM-GAMES-LTD

and here:

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/09130219

although according to Webcheck, it appears that Mark Rapson is no longer a Director at Prodos Games Ltd (you will probably have to search for prodos games on there - the link looks general):

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcprodorder?ft=1

Hmm - while double checking some things on Webchek, it seems Jarek and Michal were terminated as directors of Cerebrum on the same day as Mark Rapson ceased to be a Director of Prodos Games Ltd, and an application has now been made for striking off (the company would cease to exist). That sounds like Mr Rapson would have an interesting set of stories to tell (although I suspect he wouldn't be able to).

Titan Games are a couple of real world game stores

(http://www.titangamesuk.co.uk/contactus.html)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Titan Games are a couple of real world game stores

(http://www.titangamesuk.co.uk/contactus.html)

I wasn't sure how Prodos Games Ltd holding a directorship in their off-shoot worked - interestingly they don't have a store in Leamington Spa listed, so maybe it was a future idea to have a Joint Venture - sort of Prodos version of Warhammer World with Titan running it (pure speculation)? Unlikely to be relevant to the AvP KS though tbh. The bit that's really tweaked my interest is Mark Rapson seemingly nothing to do with Prodos any more.

Well Mark Rapson is not a director or company secretary any more,

(but that does not mean he can't be a part owner..... I don't know if he ever was or is now or if he was only ever an employee )

but then he's got a KS of his own to baby along and deliver

http://weegamers.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/marl-rapson-talks-about-putting-route.html

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wordforgegames/the-devils-run-route-666/description

so it may simply be he felt he could not devote enough time to this while also being involved in the day to day stuff at Prodos

Cheers - I didn't know that and I'd always got the impression that he was one of the main driving forces behind Prodos - I could have got that wrong though - if he's branching off into other stuff that would explain him leaving the top table positions at Prodos.

Strange enough, anybody remember the HQ 25th anni thing back then?
A lot of people thought it would never come and everybody backing it after the third try on different sites was an idiot.
Now it looks like, that thing will be done long before AvP ...

 Moses Bad wrote:
Strange enough, anybody remember the HQ 25th anni thing back then?
A lot of people thought it would never come and everybody backing it after the third try on different sites was an idiot.
Now it looks like, that thing will be done long before AvP ...

I guess that the main difference I see with that, is at least you knew going into it the HQ25 was a risk. I didn't fully appreciate the risk with AVP, no ones fault but my own on that one.

Sorta, yeah.
They communicate even less than Prodos (a peep every quarter a year or so) and release has been pushed from may to july to september - maybe that was the last one ...

 Moses Bad wrote:
Strange enough, anybody remember the HQ 25th anni thing back then?
A lot of people thought it would never come and everybody backing it after the third try on different sites was an idiot.
Now it looks like, that thing will be done long before AvP ...

I'm not at all sure HQ25 is going to reach backer hands - the game still has to go final, then GW Legal & Hasbro Legal can enjoin to assess to what extent EU / US IP may be infringed and whether distribution licenses may be required. There is a lot that can happen on HQ25.

AvP at least has the legal issue squared via the license with Fox.

What? But there is that legal dispute that took the KS page down!
Please imagine a Rosy O'Donnell voice with that sentence.

Heh, but isn't the AvP KS page down at Fox's behest?

That was never proven.
All we have for that is Prodos' word and ... well, that isn't worth too much.

If you can't trust Prodos, who can you trust?

Well, there's this dingo babysitter around here

Mh, who indeed ... say, is Ted Bundy still around?

Holy frak!
You got Dingos in the Netherlands???

Huh, might be a particularly foul-tempered chihuahua now you mention it. I've never been much one for zoology.
(and now you mention it, I'll gladly trust the chihuahua over Prodos just the same )

Holy frak!

You got Chihuahuas in the Netherlands???

richred_uk wrote:
It's been discussed before but I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere. There appear to be 3 legal entities revolving around Prodos:

Prodos Ltd (Company 07804204)
PRODOS GAMES LTD (Company 08373380)
and CEREBRUM GAMES LTD (Company 09160536)

Prodos Ltd appears to be a shell from the accounts and only Jarek is a director.

Prodos Games Ltd looks like the active company and has Mark Rapson, Jarek Ever and Michal Pawlaczyk as directors

Cerebrum Games Ltd has the same 3 directors as Prodos Games Ltd but is quite new and hasn't filed any accounts yet.

Prodos Games Ltd is also a Director of TITAN GAMES (LEAMINGTON SPA) (Company 09130219) which looks like an off-shoot of Titan Games Ltd in Staffordshire.

The bit that I'd love to look at is what Cerebrum is set up for - I can totally understand reasons for spinning off different parts of company activities into separate entities, but one of those is to insulate the group against one failure taking down the group - good for the company, less so for any company creditors. The Titan Games thing I'd guess is some sort of dipping the toe in retail, maybe setting up a UK Mail Order arm (speculation) and I doubt it's anything to worry about.

I'd also love to look at Prodos Games Ltd's accounting treatment for the Kickstarter, as their 2014 accounts (as at 31/1/14) state creditors as £73,315 - I'd have thought they would have received all the KS funds at that point, so in that case either they are not showing KS backers as a creditor or they are showing the value at much less than the pledge values e.g. at manufacture cost only (or there's something I haven't thought of). That creditor value is also shown as secured, and I'd doubt that the KS backers count as a secured creditor.

The above can all be found via here:

http://www.checkcompany.co.uk/company/09160536/CEREBRUM-GAMES-LTD

and here:

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/09130219

although according to Webcheck, it appears that Mark Rapson is no longer a Director at Prodos Games Ltd (you will probably have to search for prodos games on there - the link looks general):

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcprodorder?ft=1

Hmm - while double checking some things on Webchek, it seems Jarek and Michal were terminated as directors of Cerebrum on the same day as Mark Rapson ceased to be a Director of Prodos Games Ltd, and an application has now been made for striking off (the company would cease to exist). That sounds like Mr Rapson would have an interesting set of stories to tell (although I suspect he wouldn't be able to).

Oh he is and he can!

The said Mark Rapson here.
Cerebrum Games will cease to exist very shortly
I am no longer part of Prodos Games
Prodos Ltd predates Prodos Games and was JE personal company for contracts linked to his former career.
The Titan Games Company is a dead shell set up for a shop venture which would have been a partnership between Prodos and Titan Games. This project was killed by Titan Games.
Prodos Games has no owners in the UK and yet another company owned by ProdosGames and Jarek's father in Poland (pila) called Archon Games.

I worked approximately 20 hours a week for Prodos for promises and lies and on average £100 of expenses a month. I wised up.

I don't believe Prodos Games are in financial issues. I do believe that the remaining ownership have an ethical approach to their employees, minor share holders, business customers or KS backers, that differs significantly to mine and what most people would consider normal. These reasons are why I left.


I set up Cerebrum between the same 3 owners but with me in control. JE has majoity of Prodos Games. I did this because I have 3 game ideas which I wanted to maintain ownership of. When it became clear that the remaining ownership of Cerebrum/Prodos Games would not support (and infact would actively inhibit these projects) I left and sold ALL shares to Prodos Games and closed down Cerebrum.

I now co-own and work for Word Forge Ltd. which ran the successful KS Devil's Run: Route 666. Prodos has NOTHING to do with this project.
http://www.endole.co.uk/company/09171821/word-forge-ltd

Prodos Games has the licence for the Hysterical Games game Panzerfauste (owned in the majority by Rob Alderman - now listed as Director of Sales for Prodos Games). This I understand will be KS but in Hysterical's name although it will be a Prodos project.

Hope that helps....and just to say I'm truely shocked and disturbed by how the KS backers for AvP have been treated in the last couple of months.

I am VERY glad you have kept Devil's Run away from Prodos. That gives me a lot more faith I'll get what I pledged for in the Devil's Run KS.

Note to self: Avoid Panzerfauste...

Thank you for the information Mark. Extremely informative and I am glad you have kept Devil's Run out of their hands.

All of this sounds like:
Prodos have no money issues, but give a frak about obligations towards backers (nothing new there).
About 98% of everything Prodos said regarding continued excuses are what everybody expected them to be and Prodos always denied and even felt offended by the mere mentioning: lies (nothing new here).
I stand with my previously estimated timetable: Full completion by the end of 2017.

Really interesting to hear from you Mark.

Thanks for posting

Thanks Mark - that clears up a lot of things - have an internet cookie

It scares the hell out of me as a KS backer, but I'd rather be scared with evidence than worrying with just vague feelings.

Nice to hear from you Mark.

All of this raises just one question in my opinion, well, a few, but we'll see where I end up ...
What are they thinking? Killing not just their first customer base but also pissing off their investors. If we where a bank, they'd be crawling so low, moles would take cover.
Do they have even the slightest bit of empathy? Business sense clearly not but they should have a vague idea how they would feel and I got the feeling, they'd be raising hell if they'd be treated that way.
Somehow this looks psychologically speaking like a bully behaviour: They get crap from Fox and they take it out on the next one, i.e. us, but can't stand it if we tell them we know they are fraking with us.
Like we should be grateful that (if) we get the game, they took all the work (OK), the risk (financially not really) and the time and effort and Fox's bevahiour.
Well, guess what Prodos, you are a pathetic bunch of liars.
Unfortunately, they are too scared or full of themselves to read here or react.
Is it worth mentioning/any wonder, I haven't received an answer to my mail asking, when ASAP for those replacement cards will be?

Just wrote a second one, this time pissed.
C'mon, I don't need those cards before other backers receive, but I do want an answer and three weeks should be enough time.

I suspect that a lot of what Prodos are saying is an instruction from Fox is not. Personally I don't believe that Fox said it must be in retail channels by 30/6/15 at the same time as holding up approvals. I certainly don't believe (and I don't think Prodos have explicitly claimed this - just not corrected their cheerleaders when they have assumed it) that Fox have instructed Prodos to serve retail ahead of KS backers.

I appreciate that Mark may well not be in a position to answer specific queries like these, and totally respect that (or even he just doesn't want to having left it well behind).

Or gets some lawsuit for whistleblowing, so to say.

Update regarding the cards: Shipped, yesterday ... geez, Prodos, a little more communication results in way less bummed customers ... what do you call people unable to learn? I demand it being called to be Prodos ... take it up in a dictionary!
It's sad, I only get a response/reaction, when I write unfriendly absuive mails.

 Moses Bad wrote:
Or gets some lawsuit for whistleblowing, so to say.

Update regarding the cards: Shipped, yesterday ... geez, Prodos, a little more communication results in way less bummed customers ... what do you call people unable to learn? I demand it being called to be Prodos ... take it up in a dictionary!
It's sad, I only get a response/reaction, when I write unfriendly absuive mails.

You're just responding in kind to unfriendly abusive "updates". It's more like speaking the same language.

Prodos strikes again from the Kings of War update (Prodos are making the Blaine mini)

Just to keep you up to speed but we are having some minor stock issues with the Tyrant Blaine miniature on Gramakh that is slowing down our ability to ship orders. We’ve not been sent enough by our supplier and are getting deliveries every two or three days to replenish stock enough so that we can keep sending out orders.