rothrich wrote:
I think that after playing with the codex a few times people will see that it is a definite upgrade. Waaagh is hugely upgraded! The old waaagh is now ere we go and can be used each and every turn. If you don't understand why this alone makes the new codex way better than the old something is wrong with you. The new waaagh is what every other assault army has wanted and has not gotten. we can run and then assault... What is not to love about that? The new mob rule is kind of a nerf but honestly it needed it. Tons of fearless mobs was almost silly. Now mob rule is actually a benefit to the smaller mobz. Everything got CHEAPER! well except boyz. Now we can take as many ard boyz squads as we want. so we can actually buy a save for our boyz mobz! This is a huge upgrade!!!! Mek gunz are awesome, flash gitz awesome, gorkamorka naughts awesome, buggies are awsomer! 5 outflanking heavy flamers??? Good luck surviving that anything! Now with the stompa in our actual codex it will be pretty hard for anyone to tell you that you can't use it. Maybe you cant use your regular codex entries then (looking at you riptide!) There are so many good things about this codex. The only reason that people are upset is that the lists that dominated 5th are not viable in 7th. Well that is the way that it goes. That is the goal of GW they want you to buy a new army full of new units!

 streamdragon wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toburk wrote:
There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.


All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.

Let's be clear on a few things:

Re-rolling 2+ armor saves isn't cheese, because so many things can and will ignore 2+ armor saves. This isn't like Invulnerable save rerolls, or cover saves against armies with no Ignores Cover options.

 Toburk wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toburk wrote:
There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.


All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.

Let's be clear on a few things:

Re-rolling 2+ armor saves isn't cheese, because so many things can and will ignore 2+ armor saves. This isn't like Invulnerable save rerolls, or cover saves against armies with no Ignores Cover options.

It's not cheese, but it's the best this codex seems to get. I love how they just had to make sure that the model was removed from the table if it fails the re-rolls too.

Nothing that was broken was fixed. Things that worked were broken. Some things got minor inconsequential cost changes (lol @ lootas). While the new waagghh is good, it is now in a rather sub-par codex rather than in the codex were it would have been welcome.

Murrdox wrote:


This is what I don't get. Ghazzghul is THAT awesome that the opponent should have extra victory points from killing him?

 Perfect Organism wrote:
While the overall power level seems to have stayed constant or dropped a little, at least the internal balance has been fixed a bit.

Grots and slugga boys are now worth taking instead of shoota boys.

Rokkits are generally worthwhile compared to Big Shootas. If I'm reading it right, Tankbustas are now 2 points less than Lootas, so they are comparable in effectiveness.

Dreads got better compared to Kans.

Battlewagons are no longer no-brainer choices.

Zzapp Guns are almost as good as Kannons.

All aircraft now seem to be roughly on a par.

Kommandos are at least semi-viable now.

Bikers seem like a good choice compared to Nob Bikers.

Big Meks on Bikes have some purpose.

Did Deffkoptas get a nerf to their stats (losing the extra wound maybe) or are they insanely good value now?

 streamdragon wrote:
wut

 streamdragon wrote:
And I don't think you can just turn Tankbustas into Meks anymore. You take Meks as slotless HQ choices, limit of 1 per Big Mek you have.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
And I don't think you can just turn Tankbustas into Meks anymore. You take Meks as slotless HQ choices, limit of 1 per Big Mek you have.

You never could swap a tankbusta for a mek. That was one of the reasons they were inferior to lootas. So being able to take any meks at all is an improvement. If Meks are the same cost as before and they have rokkits and the rokkits are 5 points less than before (like every other rokkit option seems to be), then it's pretty much like getting free mek's tools on one tankbusta.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
So, if (and that's a big if) the information I've cobbled together is correct, it looks like Tankbustas got better in several minor ways which might make them a lot more viable:

They took a 20% points drop.

They no longer compete with Lootas in the Elite slot.

They have easy access to a Mek to keep their vehicle repaired.

They can take a transport (not sure what... just a trukk or can they get a BW?)

Bomb squigs are slightly better.

Painboy gives them some option for survivability.

Slight improvement with the new Glory Hogs.

On the other hand, we have several better options for handling vehicles now; Mek Guns, Blitza Bommas, Deffkoptas or just spamming rokkits all seem pretty viable.

rothrich wrote:
I think that after playing with the codex a few times people will see that it is a definite upgrade. Waaagh is hugely upgraded! The old waaagh is now ere we go and can be used each and every turn. If you don't understand why this alone makes the new codex way better than the old something is wrong with you. The new waaagh is what every other assault army has wanted and has not gotten. we can run and then assault... What is not to love about that? The new mob rule is kind of a nerf but honestly it needed it. Tons of fearless mobs was almost silly. Now mob rule is actually a benefit to the smaller mobz. Everything got CHEAPER! well except boyz. Now we can take as many ard boyz squads as we want. so we can actually buy a save for our boyz mobz! This is a huge upgrade!!!! Mek gunz are awesome, flash gitz awesome, gorkamorka naughts awesome, buggies are awsomer! 5 outflanking heavy flamers??? Good luck surviving that anything! Now with the stompa in our actual codex it will be pretty hard for anyone to tell you that you can't use it. Maybe you cant use your regular codex entries then (looking at you riptide!) There are so many good things about this codex. The only reason that people are upset is that the lists that dominated 5th are not viable in 7th. Well that is the way that it goes. That is the goal of GW they want you to buy a new army full of new units!

 streamdragon wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yeah guys, totally chill! I mean it's not like people have listed known issues or anything!

It definitely seems our characters will be in some trouble when challenged due to the lack of invulns. Thankfully warbosses are pretty tough so they should be able to survive what other characters can dish out and then just instant kill them with a PK. Nobs I would hesitate to accept challenges with - you'll need the bosspole to keep the unit in check, so why risk losing it fighting just one 'umie? Shooting shouldn't be as big of a problem, just use LO,S! a lot.

I don't think anybody was saying this new book was flawless, but it's what we have now and crying about it certainly won't help anyone. Just give it some time, we haven't even seen everything yet. Good lists will emerge. Until then, let's try to stay positive and figure out ways around the weaknesses we have.

If it were not for Waagh!, Warbosses would be a waste of points. Challenges? Try monstrous creatures, Force Weapons or any other ID route; you can either decline the challenge and your boss sits around with his dakka up his fungus, or you can accept and pray to mork and gork that your opponent's dice just completely crap the bed. No option for invulnerable saves on characters is insane. Is there another non-Tyranid (because they're at least MC HQ slots!) army that can't protect its leaders like this? I honestly can't think of one:

SM of all kinds: Iron Halo
Tau: Shield Generators/Drones
Eldar: Rune Armor
Necrons: Phase Shifter
D. Eldar: Shadow Field
AM: Rosarius
SoB: Rosarius
CSM: Dark Aura
Chaos Daemons: Daemonic Aura

Did I miss anyone? A Painboy in with your Warboss has become an auto-include if you want him to have a chance of doing anything. Are painboys tough? Pretty sure they're T4 W2 like a nob? Good luck with that. Precision shots is a thing as well, though thankfully rarer than it used to be.

Nobs are basically bosspole bitches. Like you said you can't really use them for fear of them dying; so now my glorious Ork leader who should be wanting to get stuck in is hiding in the back, hoping he can smack his buddy with a bosspole. Narrative Forged! So Cinematic! Waaagh! indeed!

Saying "Just fill up FoCs with Grotz!" is a cop-out. It's basically attempting to handwave away serious issues with the book and pretend that Grots will solve it. They won't. They're basically a tax on your other units at this point, since a unit of 10 grots won't reliably do anything other than die, most likely giving up VP in the process. Goody.

This book is far from flawless; I think it's units with no flaws are the exceptions, rather than the rules, given so many units had flaws that needed correcting. Guess how many of them saw those corrections. Because the information so far suggests pretty much 0 of them. Did we get some good stuff? Sure, we did. The new Mek Gunz answer some of the armies overall issues like Skyfire, so I'm sure we'll see tons of them. Did we get anything close to the update that people were hoping for, after 3 frelling editions? If you answer yes, you have exceedingly low expectations. Congrats I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toburk wrote:
There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.


All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.

Let's be clear on a few things:

Re-rolling 2+ armor saves isn't cheese, because so many things can and will ignore 2+ armor saves. This isn't like Invulnerable save rerolls, or cover saves against armies with no Ignores Cover options.

New Mob Rule doesn't benefit anyone, really. You used to be fearless above 10; you no longer are. Hell, have we even confirmed that it still increases LD based on model count? Or are we stuck with LD 7 on Boyz unless you stick an IC into the group?

 BigMekGearGrinda wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yeah guys, totally chill! I mean it's not like people have listed known issues or anything!

It definitely seems our characters will be in some trouble when challenged due to the lack of invulns. Thankfully warbosses are pretty tough so they should be able to survive what other characters can dish out and then just instant kill them with a PK. Nobs I would hesitate to accept challenges with - you'll need the bosspole to keep the unit in check, so why risk losing it fighting just one 'umie? Shooting shouldn't be as big of a problem, just use LO,S! a lot.

I don't think anybody was saying this new book was flawless, but it's what we have now and crying about it certainly won't help anyone. Just give it some time, we haven't even seen everything yet. Good lists will emerge. Until then, let's try to stay positive and figure out ways around the weaknesses we have.

If it were not for Waagh!, Warbosses would be a waste of points. Challenges? Try monstrous creatures, Force Weapons or any other ID route; you can either decline the challenge and your boss sits around with his dakka up his fungus, or you can accept and pray to mork and gork that your opponent's dice just completely crap the bed. No option for invulnerable saves on characters is insane. Is there another non-Tyranid (because they're at least MC HQ slots!) army that can't protect its leaders like this? I honestly can't think of one:

SM of all kinds: Iron Halo
Tau: Shield Generators/Drones
Eldar: Rune Armor
Necrons: Phase Shifter
D. Eldar: Shadow Field
AM: Rosarius
SoB: Rosarius
CSM: Dark Aura
Chaos Daemons: Daemonic Aura

Did I miss anyone? A Painboy in with your Warboss has become an auto-include if you want him to have a chance of doing anything. Are painboys tough? Pretty sure they're T4 W2 like a nob? Good luck with that. Precision shots is a thing as well, though thankfully rarer than it used to be.

Nobs are basically bosspole bitches. Like you said you can't really use them for fear of them dying; so now my glorious Ork leader who should be wanting to get stuck in is hiding in the back, hoping he can smack his buddy with a bosspole. Narrative Forged! So Cinematic! Waaagh! indeed!

Saying "Just fill up FoCs with Grotz!" is a cop-out. It's basically attempting to handwave away serious issues with the book and pretend that Grots will solve it. They won't. They're basically a tax on your other units at this point, since a unit of 10 grots won't reliably do anything other than die, most likely giving up VP in the process. Goody.

This book is far from flawless; I think it's units with no flaws are the exceptions, rather than the rules, given so many units had flaws that needed correcting. Guess how many of them saw those corrections. Because the information so far suggests pretty much 0 of them. Did we get some good stuff? Sure, we did. The new Mek Gunz answer some of the armies overall issues like Skyfire, so I'm sure we'll see tons of them. Did we get anything close to the update that people were hoping for, after 3 frelling editions? If you answer yes, you have exceedingly low expectations. Congrats I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toburk wrote:
There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.


All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.

Let's be clear on a few things:

Re-rolling 2+ armor saves isn't cheese, because so many things can and will ignore 2+ armor saves. This isn't like Invulnerable save rerolls, or cover saves against armies with no Ignores Cover options.

New Mob Rule doesn't benefit anyone, really. You used to be fearless above 10; you no longer are. Hell, have we even confirmed that it still increases LD based on model count? Or are we stuck with LD 7 on Boyz unless you stick an IC into the group?

Melcavuk, thank you ever so much for patiently answering everyones questions!

I was at my local GW store this afternoon picking up a copy of WDW when the manager mentions that the codex was going to drop in 10 minutes. So, I wait around for the codex to drop and pre-ordered the Warboss Edition as soon as the link was up on the GW site. I leave the GW store as happy as a dog in a fire hydrant factory secure in the knowledge that I just made my first limited edition purchase from GW and that I'm the proud new owner of the much vaunted Warboss Edition Ork Codex. I spend the next few hours running errands, all the while imaging what manner of Orky goodness awaited me within the precious pages of this mighty tome.

Then I came home ... eagerly came here to DakkaDakka to read this thread ... and my mood went from one of joy and elation, to one of disbelief, sadness and eventually anger.

After waiting for an updated codex through three editions and six years, GW graces us with this abomination. WTF GW?

Now I feel like a fething idiot after having pre-ordered the Warboss Edition this afternoon. GW, may the fleas of a thousand Sqigs infest your crotch!

Orks are my only army and have been so since the beginning of 3rd edition. I won't give up on them now despite the pile of Sqiggoth Gak GW is trying to pass off as our new codex. My love of our beloved Greenskins is too strong and I'll WAAAGH! on in spite of GW.

... END OF RANT, RETURNING TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING ...

rothrich wrote:
Wait what slot are tankbustas in now?

 BigMekGearGrinda wrote:


I was at my local GW store this afternoon picking up a copy of WDW when the manager mentions that the codex was going to drop in 10 minutes. So, I wait around for the codex to drop and pre-ordered the Warboss Edition as soon as the link was up on the GW site. I leave the GW store as happy as a dog in a fire hydrant factory secure in the knowledge that I just made my first limited edition purchase from GW and that I'm the proud new owner of the much vaunted Warboss Edition Ork Codex. I spend the next few hours running errands, all the while imaging what manner of Orky goodness awaited me within the precious pages of this mighty tome.

Then I came home ... eagerly came here to DakkaDakka to read this thread ... and my mood went from one of joy and elation, to one of disbelief, sadness and eventually anger.

After waiting for an updated codex through three editions and six years, GW graces us with this abomination. WTF GW?

Now I feel like a fething idiot after having pre-ordered the Warboss Edition this afternoon. GW, may the fleas of a thousand Sqigs infest your crotch!

Orks are my only army and have been so since the beginning of 3rd edition. I won't give up on them now despite the pile of Sqiggoth Gak GW is trying to pass off as our new codex. My love of our beloved Greenskins is too strong and I'll WAAAGH! on in spite of GW.

... END OF RANT, RETURNING TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING ...

BooBoo wrote:
Does anybody has the Chaos Codex at hand and can number a couple of units or characters which are good in CC?

I think that, with the lost of any viable invulnerable save, Orks characters do not stand any chance to actually punch a fight against any other good CC units/characters, so the option seems to ally with Chaos and let them play in that field. Unorky, sure, but I still do not understand losing Cybork bodies to the worhtless 6+ FnP.

I will be modelling Chaos characters as Ork-count as and use those rules.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I must have missed it somewhere, how did rokkits get buffed? I seen it mentioned several times now and I can't find how they were buffed.

I think Chaos Terminators are pretty much the best close combat unit they have.

Compared to Meganobs:

Relentless instead of S&P.
Cheaper.
Can take Lightning Claws and have decent initiative.
Only one wound each, but free 5+ Invulnerable.
Can get FNP with Mark of Slaanesh and the Icon of Excess, but more expensive than a Painboy. Alternatively, can get +1 T or 4+ Invulnerable.
Leadership 9, can get +1 Leadership or Fearless.
Combi-flamer is inferior to Kombi-skorcha, but Combi-melta is pretty sweet.
Fewer attacks, no furious charge unless you pay for an expensive upgrade.
Can take a Land Raider as a DT or Deep Strike.

BooBoo wrote:

I think Chaos Terminators are pretty much the best close combat unit they have.

Compared to Meganobs:

Relentless instead of S&P.
Cheaper.
Can take Lightning Claws and have decent initiative.
Only one wound each, but free 5+ Invulnerable.
Can get FNP with Mark of Slaanesh and the Icon of Excess, but more expensive than a Painboy. Alternatively, can get +1 T or 4+ Invulnerable.
Leadership 9, can get +1 Leadership or Fearless.
Combi-flamer is inferior to Kombi-skorcha, but Combi-melta is pretty sweet.
Fewer attacks, no furious charge unless you pay for an expensive upgrade.
Can take a Land Raider as a DT or Deep Strike.

Thanks a lot for the reply, Perfect Organism. What about their HQ's? Anything worthwile taking in CC from your point of view?

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I must have missed it somewhere, how did rokkits get buffed? I seen it mentioned several times now and I can't find how they were buffed.

Same rules, cheaper cost.

 Deunstephe wrote:
Before you wage Waaagh! on GW, playtest the rules! Might be better than you think.