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Is Imperial Fists Heavy Bolter devastators viable?

Here is why im bringing them up. A full squad is 110 pts, relatively cheap. The fire 12 shots where 3 is at BS 5 (Signum) and reroll 1s and get + reroll against veichles (not important but helps as they can take down AV 11). They hit about 10 hits average and wound most troops on a 2+ which is about 8,5 wounds on for example Fire Warriors. Combine them with a drop pod aupex that removes 1 cover from enemy defence line campers and you can kill most troop type units (not SM) in a singel salvo. And as a bonus, they look awesome. And if you buy 2 boxes of devs, you get enough parts to make both a Lascannon team and a Heavy Bolter team.

Light transport like truck or Venom = 10 hits 2,5 pen 2,5 glance due tor reroll.

Thoughts?

Auspex on the sergeant now removes cover saves?

Good paln but tank hunters is no longer +1 strebght it is re-roll armour penetration so while you can't damage AV12 it is better against low armour vehicles. Auspex only lowers coversaves by one so it isn't that good, but it still helps. Otherwise it looks like a realy fun unit, however, it might get outshined by the thunderfire cannon that is cheaper, has higher strenght and will probably get more hits.

Auspex is HQ only isn't it?

I'd love to bring out my heavy bolter armed devastator squad, but unfortunately they are out shined by my lascannon squad and missile launcher squad. But those guys were used for the first time since the original release of apocalypse thanks to the new imperial fists tactics, so devastators are a go, just maybe not heavy bolter guys :(

While it's an interesting idea I'm not convinced it's going to be that effective against anything other than infantry (or light tanks-av10 ones). Due to bolter drill you could consider the devs to be BS5 in effect, so you're looking at ~10 hits which against non-Meq will result in plenty of cover saves (or casaulties) but against Meqs you're looking at 2 maybe 3 casaulties. Alternatively if you fire at a tank Av10 you have 5/9 chance of a pen or a glance or 11/36 of a glance against av11.

Where as if you pay an extra 40pts and take 4 lascannons, the devs will shred virtually any tank due to tank hunters. In restricted points/armour values I can see it having merit but otherwise I'd just roll with some more dedicated anti-tank weaponary to be honest.

Also auspex is special wargear option so HQs only I think.

Should have been clearer on my plan: Put aupex on a Captain or Librerial that drops. But I must have missread, thought the aupex removed cover save. Damn. I must have wish hammered a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated the miss information

I like the idea of cheap HB devastators. Im also a SOB player so Ret squads of HB is normal for me.

I'm thinking of running 3 HB with one missile launcher. At 125 points for the missile with skyfire, it gives me good anti infantry with the ability to hit a plane if nessecary with the signum on the skyfire missile. for infantry go with the frag missile.

I'm also going heavy on heavy bolters in other units, as I am playing crimson fists.Attack bike squads of HB, scouts in LSS with HB, and HB tactical squads. Really starts to add up when you leverage that many into a list.

It's a neat idea, and makes for a great anti-infantry unit. As already pointed out, at S5 it's not going to make a decent anti-tank unit even with Chapter Tactics.

The problem I fear is this... with Bolter Drill, you're probably already taking a lot of other models with bolters. These should be able to handle most anti-infantry needs, so your Devastators are better off taking full advantage of Chapter Tactics with lascannons or perhaps multimeltas (but seriously - LASCANNONS).

I can see it being useful against Orks, Nids and foot Guard, where every shot counts, but that's about it.

 Super Ready wrote:
It's a neat idea, and makes for a great anti-infantry unit. As already pointed out, at S5 it's not going to make a decent anti-tank unit even with Chapter Tactics.

The problem I fear is this... with Bolter Drill, you're probably already taking a lot of other models with bolters. These should be able to handle most anti-infantry needs, so your Devastators are better off taking full advantage of Chapter Tactics with lascannons or perhaps multimeltas (but seriously - LASCANNONS).

I can see it being useful against Orks, Nids and foot Guard, where every shot counts, but that's about it.

Or Dark Eldar. Quite frankly IF HB devastators are going to tear DE a new one!! Tank hunters with the sheer weight of fire will easily put down a raider and when they start opening fire on the troops inside things will get bloody very quickly. Most troops will drop very rapidly as well. Tau with lots of Pathfinders/Kroot/Firewarriors/Snapping fish (Piranhas) could suffer against this. Additionally because of the weight of fire coupled with the re-roll available from 1's to hit AND on the penetration then light flyers could be possible targets of opportunity especially if a ML with Flak was thrown in to take advantage of the Sergeants targeting thingy.

Really, when you look at it any Tau equivalent, Guard equivalent, Light vehicle and/or flyer has a lot to fear from a 3 HB and 1 ML devastator squad. Would be fairly easy to throw in a HB razorback on a 6 man squad for very close to the same price as LC squad. Suddenly they have the option to use the transport if needs be. You have got the transport as well to tank shock etc. Furthermore your looking at 4 HB and 1 ML firing away in a single turn generating a very respectable weight of fire.

Auspex is 12" range and instead of a shooting attack.
It's also -1 to cover save only, doesn't remove it.

Better off using the Signum. & a serg can't take one anyway

You can glance a rhino to death if that is any help.

Problem is that the real issue units are armor 12 or 13 so the hvy bolter/bolter version is not as helpful(would be great if you could get the ass of heldrakes)

 Leth wrote:
Problem is that the real issue units are armor 12 or 13 so the hvy bolter/bolter version is not as helpful(would be great if you could get the ass of heldrakes)

This is a common failing when discussing units on the internet. Everyone applies a general META based on what tournaments come up with BUT also what the "internet kick ass lists of doom" are floating around. That may not be that case with your gaming meta and situation. I also play against an opponent with heavy raider/venom DE supported by some flyers. It is quite a good list however 4 Lascannons are overkill. Again against my other regular opponent I am facing a Guard defensive foot army. Lascannons would be worse than useless in this case. My 3rd of 4 regular opponents plays an Ork biker list. Lascannons may be useful here to be fair but I'd rather go Plasma and/or massed firepower to resolve the situation. My final opponent plays Mechanised SM with lots of Rhino's supported by 1-2 LR/ Predators depending on the points.


At least 50% of my opponents are better dealt with the HB squad. Add the single ML in and most of my SM opponents Rhino's can be rapidly brought to heel through massed firepower and accurate ML attacks. My final Ork opponent can be reduced in strength by Massed HB fire being close quarters elements of my list attack with shorter ranged rapid fire weapons like Grav/Plasma weapons against his bikes.

*Shrugs* It all depends and in a light armour, skimmer, foot META your IF HB Dev squad will cause genuine carnage!!

Even if your local meta is low on heavy armor, one must be ready for the chance it appears.

Relying only on HB, as accurate as they may be, is a risky plan.

A squad wont hurt, but it takes the place of the heavy-duty guns.

Having HB spread around your troops (for example throwing one in a sniper team/tactical team) and relying on multiple bolter-carriers just seems safer to me.

If only marines had autocannons. Sigh.

I would keep the HBs in your tactical squads as they'll usually end up moving forward for objective grabbing and get in better range of the HBs. They still will enjoy bolter-drill.

For the devastators my setup of choice is a 10-man squad with 2 LCs and 2 MLs with Flakk, you can combat-squad them and enjoy a decent anti-tank unit AND a decent AA unit (Flakks with reroll to pen are actually quite nice).

Just my 2 cents, YMMV

Brutoni wrote:
That may not be that case with your gaming meta and situation. I also play against an opponent with heavy raider/venom DE supported by some flyers. It is quite a good list however 4 Lascannons are overkill. Again against my other regular opponent I am facing a Guard defensive foot army. Lascannons would be worse than useless in this case. My 3rd of 4 regular opponents plays an Ork biker list. Lascannons may be useful here to be fair but I'd rather go Plasma and/or massed firepower to resolve the situation. My final opponent plays Mechanised SM with lots of Rhino's supported by 1-2 LR/ Predators depending on the points.

At least 50% of my opponents are better dealt with the HB squad.

I'm not convinced on your 50% number. A dev squad with 4 lascannons can combat squad and drop ~2 raider/venoms a turn. As you pointed out, lascannons are better against bikers, and against mech marines, combat squaded lascannons will tear up rhinos, more often than not putting a penetrating hit on two rhinoes.

Combat squad really gives a boost to the lascannons, as it solved the over-kill problem.
Combat squading heavy bolters does very little, as you aren't over-killing.

-Matt

The issue is less about what it is optimized against but rather can it consistently do damage?

Is a lascannon optimized against a Raider/Venom? Nope however it can still hurt armor 14. Now I think that it also matters what the rest of your list has.

So for example I would rather throw a cheap heavy bolter on my tac squads and then throw the heavier weapons on my devs so that the units that benefit the most from tank hunter(lower number of shots) will be able to use it.

Well, the inability to take on AV12 makes them less useful. Against Serpent spam they are more a liabilty. The enemy will simply ignore them in the first place.

I think we do need to consider that we are looking at this in a vacuum. I don't think the OP is saying bring nothing but heavy Bolter devastators (and in my opinion that may be a bit much) rather a single squad to deal for heavy AI firepower. The added armor bit is just to prove there is some flexibility versus light armor. And honestly you don't see people not taking TFCs just because they ticke AV 12 and can't hurt AV 13 vehicles. There's no reason why he can't have lascannon devs too for the heavy stuff. Marines have the tools to load up anti tank else where and not necessarily have it reside purely in heavy support. It also provides more flexibility than your standard Bolter. Higher rate of accurate fire against anything 4+ or lower is devastating especially when we consider the popularity of tau. Not to mention the rate of fire is good for burying things that normally don't care about high strength-low rate of fire weapons like wraiths. Wounding on 3s can make a big difference when you need to kill something before they hit your lines.

Id say its better now bye low armor stuff!

KelCJ wrote:
I think we do need to consider that we are looking at this in a vacuum. I don't think the OP is saying bring nothing but heavy Bolter devastators (and in my opinion that may be a bit much) rather a single squad to deal for heavy AI firepower. The added armor bit is just to prove there is some flexibility versus light armor. And honestly you don't see people not taking TFCs just because they ticke AV 12 and can't hurt AV 13 vehicles. There's no reason why he can't have lascannon devs too for the heavy stuff. Marines have the tools to load up anti tank else where and not necessarily have it reside purely in heavy support. It also provides more flexibility than your standard Bolter. Higher rate of accurate fire against anything 4+ or lower is devastating especially when we consider the popularity of tau. Not to mention the rate of fire is good for burying things that normally don't care about high strength-low rate of fire weapons like wraiths. Wounding on 3s can make a big difference when you need to kill something before they hit your lines.

I do think as yourself and Leth have pointed out this is in a Vacuum and therefore we will not answer the problem except from a math hammer point of view. That can be informative but also very misleading depending on META and the rest of your list. Not to mention your own personal idiosyncrasies (I think I got the spelling and grammar right there?). With marines I like to brawl at close range. I find the T4 3+ save along with the punishing rate of fire from bolters, plasmas, new grav guns and melta guns to suit them. As such any big anti-tank can be dealt with melta weapons. Bike squads can react rapidly to this as melta carriers. As can sternguard (combat squaded) or even a tac squad with MM, MG and Combi-Melta. As such I tend to prefer the HB for it's high rate of fire, cheaper points cost (allowing more points for the aggressive elements of my army) as well as the crowd control and ability to deal with light armour. With regards combat squading. I tend to take Devastators in groups of 5-7 depending on the army list and mobility threat/range from opponents. The 4 LC can overkill also discounts the fact I can take 2 squads of 5 HB devastators throwing out 2 with BS5 instead of a single one for the same price. Sure my combat effectiveness suffers from casualties more however I also have double the number of guns. 2 squads with 4 HB's each will just eat through DE and would be very painful for a mere 220 points tbh.

The fact we are now starting to discuss this in such depth suggests to me that they certainly have a place in IF lists at the very least. With both bolter drill and tank hunters applying to them they are a very cheap and very cheerful devastator unit! For several armies they may not be optimal. However given that melta weapons don't really need tank hunters as a rule and I have enough for the odd AV 13/14 I face then for me, at the least, IF HB devastators would make sense. Once I have decided if I am going IF chapter tactics, WS chapter tactics or Salamanders then I shall let you know how I fare with them... if at all.

EDIT:
I do admit that 2 squads of 4 HB's is using 2 force organisation chat and is also vulnerable it was just an example. Also a single squad of IF devastators generates about 78% accuracy with heavy bolters and will therefore reliably inflict 9/12 hits and 5 glancing (counting all penetrating hits as glancing there) so even if you combat squad you'd be likely to knock down a raider and venom in a single turn. Then chew into the DE squishiness afterwards!

The problem is that bolter drill does not really do anything for them and tank hunter would do better on other weapons. Basically it does nothing for them to be in an IF combat tactics that could not be done better and cheaper with Devastators. Devastator marines would be getting most of the benefits of twin linking with bolter drill. While still getting the benefits of tank hunter

 Leth wrote:
The problem is that bolter drill does not really do anything for them and tank hunter would do better on other weapons. Basically it does nothing for them to be in an IF combat tactics that could not be done better and cheaper with Devastators. Devastator marines would be getting most of the benefits of twin linking with bolter drill. While still getting the benefits of tank hunter

I'm sorry I'm not sure I quite understand you? I meant that IF HB devastators are deadly because of HB and tankhunters essentially turning the weapon into a very potent anti-infantry and anti-vehicle (though not tank!) weapon. My comment with regards the other chapters was merely that I haven't fully decided which one to go with yet and so, as you have alluded to, don't know if I will be using IF HB Dev squads. I think, that is what you were suggesting... Please correct me if I am wrong as the conversation has been highly useful so far and, unusually for the internet, very civil and calm. Perhaps I should visit this board more often if this is the general atmosphere.

EDIT:

Btw, on a totally off topic point I really do appreciate your sig

Have you though of hurricane bolters on centurion devs? To augment and a single las or a couple plasmas in the tac squad should give you limited anti tank for just in case.

Drakka77 wrote:
Have you though of hurricane bolters on centurion devs? To augment and a single las or a couple plasmas in the tac squad should give you limited anti tank for just in case.

I hadn't no. However as useful as the devastator devs are I cannot stand the way they look. Not quite sure how I would convert them and/or if I want to spend the time and money that could be used with models that are already much more stunning from the start. I have however considered HB's on my normal tactical marines backed up by a flamer perhaps. Then just going for massed ML's on my devs.... I donno. So many options to choose from!

If you have anti armor covered, HB are useful to down infantry. Range is good too.

Im almost considering dropping my thunderfire and taking a heavy bolter squad. It hasent really impressed me in the 3 games I have used it in so far, and one of them was versus nids, which you would think would be devastating. But with their cheap venomthrope spam for 5+ cover I was forced to use the str 4 shots, and all that synapse means earthshaker is useless.

I am thinking 3 devastator squads to maximize my rules.

10x devs, 4 lascannons, split up into 2 5 man squads.
10x devs, 4x heavy bolters, split into 2 5 man (infantry and light vehicle killing)
and 10 devs, 2 missile with flakk, 2 plasma.cannons, the 5 man team with plasma will have the seargent, and man a quad gun, and the 2 missile launcher squad will have flakk to split up my anti air fire so one hellturkey dosent just roast them all.

Question though. Devastators get to reroll armor pen on vehicles. Does that mean that if they man the quad gun, it ALSO gets to reroll?

To the OP -
I think 4xHB Devs can definitely compete if they synergize with your list.

On the topic of Devs -
I have anti tank pretty well covered. Thinking of 2HB/2PC on a 5-7 man squad to fill an anti light/heavy infantry role. Anyone seen/used this combo?