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I think Badrukk and the Gitz are fine to bring. I'd just drop Freebooterz for another Deathskullz. Throw the SAG and MANz in there for the DS bonuses, and put the Gitz and Badrukk in the Badmoonz detachment.

I think you guys are forgetting that a squad of foot nobz can take 2 ammo runts that can absorb a couple of D2 shots.

For 4 points that's a pretty efficient ablative wound.

They can, but it's still not enough in a meta where you need to kill squads of 10 Marines on the regular. And anything that can take down 10 Marines will take down 10 Nobz and 2 Ammo Runts.

No protection for gits will be rough... but 30 Grots isn’t enough. People blow throw 90 occasionally to get Lootas.

DS would mean no defence for the gits.

He has two DS Battalions, so that's actually 60 Grots. And if that ain't enough, then there's literally nothing that would protect them anyway. Anything that can blow through 60 Grots and the Gitz behind it (on average, even with SM BS and -1 AP, that's 162 Strength 8 shots) will blow through a Trukk, a BW, or anything else you try to put in their way. So what else would you recommend to keep these Gitz safe, if that's not enough?

Grot shield is kultur locked my dude.

It's stupid as hell, but yeah, only Freebootas grots can protect gits.

Throw em in a trukk, make it Deathskullz so it has Ramshackle and a 6++, Loot it when it pops, have them disembark into cover for a 2+ save? Nice thing is, if they disembark from the vehicle popping and survive, they count as standing still next round. Woop.

Also, not sure how your math is working out there.

You just force your opponent to activate grot shields, then shoot the grots until they are dead -- Wounding on 2s is better than 4s with your str 4 bolters, and there's no painboy or KFF to give the grots a save beyond their t-shirt.

I forgot about that. Yeah. Too bad, cuz a single Battalion of Freebooterz is basically worthless. Best case scenario is Badrukk pops a unit and gives the Gitz a +1, but that's incredibly unlikely. And not like you can rely on the Grots to pull it off.

My suggestion is to still drop the FB Battalion and just put the Gitz into a Tellyporta. Drop em T2, Da Jump Badrukk up for support, and hope that they deal enough damage before your opponent wipes em out.

Honestly, Gits might be cheap enough where using them as a sacrificial unit might be okay. 248 for 10 + 2 ammo runts is 30 shots, 2 re-rolls, and can shoot twice on a 6 (if you want, try to reroll this with a command point so it happens on ~33% of the time).

If you deep strike them into cover, a 3+ save w/ 2 wounds isn't so bad.

tulun wrote:
These are interesting points, thanks.

Could we not achieve something similar for less points?

10 grots + 10 nobs w/choppas is 170 points. 175 if you give one a big choppa.

Or is losing the threat of green tide + multi damage weapons ( and I guess theoretically worse morale ) making that less tenable?

I’m sure it would be easy to hide a unit of 10 nobs turn 1

Not sure, but in theory it could work. The biggest downside of nobz compared to warbikers or boyz is their small footprint, so pulling of multi-assaults and arrests is difficult.

With cp reroll flash gitz shoot twice is 30,555556% exactly

 Emicrania wrote:
My thought behind it is that you have already 3 other scary big unit to take care off and Gitz without badrukk and grot shield suffer a lot.
The extra 60 points is before ca drop, so it should be 2k on the nose.
At best you could switch badrukk for a warboss, go ES with the MANZ and the gitz, but you would leave them in the open with no real protection.

You should do this. Evil Sunz is the way to go for MANZ - it gives them a grater threat range and most importantly gets them into position quicker (middle of the board).

Forget protecting the MANZ, let your opponent try to dislodge them while you win the game. They’re a trap.

I wouldn’t trade Gits in this list, I’d try to squeeze in some Mek gunz or Lootas.

Remember that the Aussie dude is what? Top 3 ork player itc and he run the list with 3 battalion, ES,DS and BM. He got 30 grots for his lootas and no KFF. The lootas costs 7 ppm and have better save and 1 more W.
My thought is to not use a 350 points unit to DS and charge, even with a rerollable 8", is too much of a gamble, my thought is to footslog the MANz midfield and treath everyting that comes close, as you blast them with SAG, Tankabusta and Gitz from behind. That list have 4 death star and 150 models. Ain't that easy to manage or to counter.
The only problem is maybe losing ES kultur for grovt shield, but again, I would footslog or jump them anywah

T1nk4bell wrote:
With cp reroll flash gitz shoot twice is 30,555556% exactly

It feels less than this. The odds are too low for me to want to run the risk (and build a list around it).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Shooty Orks tended to use Grots exclusively and literally outshot their opponents - SSAG, SAG, Lootas, Tankbustas and lots of Smashas feature in this list type.

That's not true, all recent top placements of this archetype had an evil suns battalion with two or three unit of boyz for the reasons outlined above. See panda's weekly rundowns for lists.

Board Controlly Orks use Boyz as the primary troop for reasons Jid has already pointed out. They have a few Grots but they serve to protect the SSAG mostly.

That list has all but disappeared from top tables since last CA. I think we had only one or two instances (out of ~30 top placements) where such a list did well.

The other main list archetype was the Aussie dudes Meganobz list that also had no Boyz (only Grots) as the troops fillers. This was the list that interested me the most, as it was the most flexible, but I'm not sure Meganobz can stand in the Marine meta.

That list is basically a variant of shooty orks. The guy gave some insight on how he used them on reddit - he basically deep strikes them onto objectives(preferably somewhere in the middle of the board) with enemy units on them, clears out the units and then uses what's left of them to hold the objective. He rarely used them to fight down knights or other hard targets, but he always has the option to do so if necessary.

On a fully mechanised list - Jid is absolutely spot on again - Warbikes fulfil the same role as Boyz in that list. Unfortunately they don't provide CP so you probably need Grots to fill troop slots. They also take up less space, can't be Jumped, are more expensive, can't be "Green Tided" and suffer more from morale losses. I've used them, extensively, and it always feels like it'd be better to take more Boyz instead, unfortunately.

If you need them to take up more space, but them on the new bases. The footprint is silly large, they cover almost 50% more area than 30 boyz would.

 Emicrania wrote:
Remember that the Aussie dude is what? Top 3 ork player itc and he run the list with 3 battalion, ES,DS and BM. He got 30 grots for his lootas and no KFF. The lootas costs 7 ppm and have better save and 1 more W.
My thought is to not use a 350 points unit to DS and charge, even with a rerollable 8", is too much of a gamble, my thought is to footslog the MANz midfield and treath everyting that comes close, as you blast them with SAG, Tankabusta and Gitz from behind. That list have 4 death star and 150 models. Ain't that easy to manage or to counter.
The only problem is maybe losing ES kultur for grovt shield, but again, I would footslog or jump them anywah

But MANZ are slow as feth when footslogged as anything but ES and their threat range is shorter when they’re sat in the middle of the board because no +1 MV, Adv and charge. Aussie guy takes MANZ as ES for exactly these reasons. BM seems a waste to me, that’s for sure.

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:
So for my Mad Max/Mechanized list I am hearing... take Grots not boyz? I am currently taking a 2-3 shoota boy squads in a truck and it's been a mixed bag. They pump a lot of shots out but I don't think it's worth the points, particularly with the trukk adding so much for little value. The buggies on the otherhand have performed well, despite being overcosted. CA 2019 will just make that better I suppose.

My new concept (as well as being fluffy imo) and no boyz, just grots. 3-4 Smasha gunz with a SAG or SSAG from a mek or two for a barebones batallion for some CP. I might even do two.

Agree, mech lists have no use for boyz.

The rest will be an outrider detachement of buggies, tankbustas in a Wagon or Trukk if I take a Bonebreakah. No bikes, and a Wazbom Blastajet. Any infantry units will get rocked by the buggies so my main concern is having anti-tank, hence the tankbustas + smasha guns and wazbom.

Both the scrapjet and the SJD are pretty good anti-tank weapon, and the KBB also can help plonking wounds off them. My biggest issue is taking out things with good defense, like eliminators, units with storm shields, vehicles protected by -1 to hit, etc. I'm planning to bring a weird boy next game, just to have some source of mortal wounds to handle targets like that and maybe cast warpath somewhere.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Shooty Orks tended to use Grots exclusively and literally outshot their opponents - SSAG, SAG, Lootas, Tankbustas and lots of Smashas feature in this list type.

That's not true, all recent top placements of this archetype had an evil suns battalion with two or three unit of boyz for the reasons outlined above. See panda's weekly rundowns for lists.

Board Controlly Orks use Boyz as the primary troop for reasons Jid has already pointed out. They have a few Grots but they serve to protect the SSAG mostly.

That list has all but disappeared from top tables since last CA. I think we had only one or two instances (out of ~30 top placements) where such a list did well.

The other main list archetype was the Aussie dudes Meganobz list that also had no Boyz (only Grots) as the troops fillers. This was the list that interested me the most, as it was the most flexible, but I'm not sure Meganobz can stand in the Marine meta.

That list is basically a variant of shooty orks. The guy gave some insight on how he used them on reddit - he basically deep strikes them onto objectives(preferably somewhere in the middle of the board) with enemy units on them, clears out the units and then uses what's left of them to hold the objective. He rarely used them to fight down knights or other hard targets, but he always has the option to do so if necessary.

On a fully mechanised list - Jid is absolutely spot on again - Warbikes fulfil the same role as Boyz in that list. Unfortunately they don't provide CP so you probably need Grots to fill troop slots. They also take up less space, can't be Jumped, are more expensive, can't be "Green Tided" and suffer more from morale losses. I've used them, extensively, and it always feels like it'd be better to take more Boyz instead, unfortunately.

If you need them to take up more space, but them on the new bases. The footprint is silly large, they cover almost 50% more area than 30 boyz would.

You’re probably right on the list archetypes, I haven’t been checking lists as thoroughly as some of you on here for a while.

You’re not entirely right on the Aussie guys list though, he’s done a pretty in-depth tactica and I think he tended to footslog the MANZ - could be wrong but that’s my recollection anyway. Either way his list is supposed to be a TAC list as I understand it, it can adapt to suit the situation and opponent (which is why I think it’s most flexible).

Lol I’ve rebased my bikes and boys, them boys take up a hell of a lot more space

I've been considering a Nobs & Flashgits based list (with grots and SAG's to get CP to play with) rolling in battlewagons and kill-tanks (wagons for gits, kill tanks for nobs).

I'm actually thinking of running as snakebites. Everything I have in the list has decent saves and massed firepower and not much random damage, so deathskulls 6++ isn't that helpful and the rerolls are less needed than with 2-3 shots. having 6+++ on the big tanks and nobs/gits (who will likely have 3+ saves after loot it has gone off) is probably going to help more with survival. It's either that or evil suns for easier charges, but with 'ere we go already, it's not actually too bad getting into combat. The only other consideration is Blood Axes, as it will give me better survival from a distance and stop me getting tied up in combat and prevented from doing anything next turn, which strikes me as very useful for 2-3 kill tanks forming most of the army.

I might even splurge if I have the CP and try out the buzzer squig hive bomm relic, probably on a waaagh! banner nob as he'll likely get close. Normally SSAG is my priority, but with 2-3 bursta guns, I'll have my high S good AP weapons, but with less damage than a SSAG... difficult...

 Jidmah wrote:


Not sure, but in theory it could work. The biggest downside of nobz compared to warbikers or boyz is their small footprint, so pulling of multi-assaults and arrests is difficult.

True. You can more easily squeeze 10 nobs into a tight deep strike zone at least.

I guess the trade off here is also does the unit work as described for the cost saving. Like maybe nobs footprint is less, but paying 70 points less for the squad is a fine trade off. We get nobs + other units which changes the equation.

If they were equal cost, it would just be better to go for troops without much more thought. Obsec.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know on some thought I might have to pick up a full squad of Warbikers.

If you combo them with Kult of speed, maybe they aren’t actually that overcosted.

We already pay 215 points for a tie up unit of boys (30 + BC ).

A unit of 12 is 276. Pricier, but you get:
72 Big Shoota shots
T5
2W each ( total wounds is 25 for the squad)
Easier to get all 12 in so not too dissimilar attacks on the charge
4+ save
And a potential 44/45” charge ( average of about 40”) that ignores auspex scan and infiltrators in the marine matchup.

Missing sauce to me has always been Kult of speed. I’ve overlooked it.

 flandarz wrote:
It's also important to note that MANz have a 2+ to Marine 3+. Might seem like a small difference, but against -1 AP, that's a 1/3 chance to take damage versus a 50% chance. Or, in essence, if it would take 2 shots to take out a 2W Marine, it would take 6 of the same attacks to do the same to a MAN.

Actually it's 4.5 attacks, not 6 (2 wound marine * (3 wounds / 2 wounds) * (2/3 saved / 1/2 saved) )

Oi! Maff iz 'ard, yanno! We'z ain't all nerdy li'il Grotz loik yooz!

(Thanks, buddy!)

I was just thinking...why didn't the looted tank-wagon make it into legends?

probably because the looted trio doesnt have points and legends has points.
They'd have to actually price that stuff. And at least for the Battlefortress thats quite the task and GW be lazy about these things.

Hey guys, I know it’s probably a bad list but, I was wandering if I could get some opinions on how this list would fair in competent-casual sort of games. I don’t play tournaments and such but we tend to have competent lists.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
probably because the looted trio doesnt have points and legends has points.
They'd have to actually price that stuff. And at least for the Battlefortress thats quite the task and GW be lazy about these things.

I meant the one that appeared on the WD a while back. Certainly it can't be that difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Hey guys, I know it’s probably a bad list but, I was wandering if I could get some opinions on how this list would fair in competent-casual sort of games. I don’t play tournaments and such but we tend to have competent lists.

Spoiler:

(Battalion)
HQ
- Ghazghkull
- Big Mek w/ KFF
TROOP
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 19x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 10x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 10x Grots
- 10x Grots
ELITE
- 5x Meganobz w/ Klaws and Kustom Shootas
- 10x Nobz w/ Big Coppas and Choppas

(Spearhead)
HQ
- Big Mek w/ SSAG
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Bonebreaka
- Bonebreaka
- 2x Deff Dreads w/ 2x Klaws, 2x Saws
- 3x Mek Gunz w/ KMK

Too easy to chose the target. I would add a weird boy somehow to Da Jump a blob of boys. Otherwise they all will be dead before reaching combat.

The bonebreaker that carries Ghazkull will have a huge red point for the enemies AT.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

T1nk4bell wrote:
With cp reroll flash gitz shoot twice is 30,555556% exactly

It feels less than this. The odds are too low for me to want to run the risk (and build a list around it).

Maths is wrong chance wise it is 1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
with the reroll it is (1/6+1/6)=2/12=1/6 =16.66%=0.1666

both rolls are independent of each other and don't affect each other.

the probability of success doesn't change with the reroll - you just get an extra opportunity at success at the same rate/chance/probability which is 1/6=16.666%

 kingbbobb wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

T1nk4bell wrote:
With cp reroll flash gitz shoot twice is 30,555556% exactly

It feels less than this. The odds are too low for me to want to run the risk (and build a list around it).

Maths is wrong chance wise it is 1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
with the reroll it is (1/6+1/6)=2/12=1/6 =16.66%=0.1666

both rolls are independent of each other and don't affect each other.

the probability of success doesn't change with the reroll - you just get an extra opportunity at success at the same rate/chance/probability which is 1/6=16.666%

The probablity before rolling the dice both times, is 0.3055 of success, because you have 2 chances.

The probablility of success after throwing the first dice failing and going to throw the second dice is 0.166

1/6 + 1/6 is not 1/36 bro, that would be 1/6*1/6, is 2/6 = 1/3, and that's not the way it is calculated because, in case you would throw the dice 6 times, you would have a 100% chance, and that's not true.

The 30.55% comes from the 1/6 + 5/6*1/6, the chance of succes at the first time (1/6) + the chance of succes of the second time (5/6 of fails * 1/6 of success)

The problem here is probability not reflect real cases, only the mathematical point of view, because when you throw the dice and fail, you still didn't waste CP, and the moment you gonna waste the CP, the chance is only 16%, being orkz an army very CP dependant, so wasting a CP in a 16.6% chance of shooting again is not really worth it

 kingbbobb wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

T1nk4bell wrote:
With cp reroll flash gitz shoot twice is 30,555556% exactly

It feels less than this. The odds are too low for me to want to run the risk (and build a list around it).

Maths is wrong chance wise it is 1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
with the reroll it is (1/6+1/6)=2/12=1/6 =16.66%=0.1666

both rolls are independent of each other and don't affect each other.

the probability of success doesn't change with the reroll - you just get an extra opportunity at success at the same rate/chance/probability which is 1/6=16.666%

1/6+1/6=2/6, or 1/3.

Which isn't how you calculate it (see the post before mine for how) but you don't add denominators, only numerators.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Hey guys, I know it’s probably a bad list but, I was wandering if I could get some opinions on how this list would fair in competent-casual sort of games. I don’t play tournaments and such but we tend to have competent lists.

Spoiler:

(Battalion)
HQ
- Ghazghkull
- Big Mek w/ KFF
TROOP
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 19x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 10x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 10x Grots
- 10x Grots
ELITE
- 5x Meganobz w/ Klaws and Kustom Shootas
- 10x Nobz w/ Big Coppas and Choppas

(Spearhead)
HQ
- Big Mek w/ SSAG
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Bonebreaka
- Bonebreaka
- 2x Deff Dreads w/ 2x Klaws, 2x Saws
- 3x Mek Gunz w/ KMK

you haven't listed Kulturs/CP/warlord traits and your overall strategy.
people need this stuff to make proper assessment,

but i generally dislike all ork transports, in 8th ed full of high str high damage ranged weaponry, i see them as point sinks.
better to have more Ork models, more CP for Teleport Strategems and a weird boy to da jump them up the field.

Thanks for the replies guys. I’m going Goffs for Ghazza, not sure on which relic to use. I’m not hugely sure on what to use for Orks, none of it looks particularly standout-isn