Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm not opposed to my opponent spending nearly 300 points on 1 definite turn of Night Fighting and Solar Pulse. It would be just like Dawn of War, just reserve everything.

puma713 wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

But there is: The end of the current "Game Turn". The BGB makes a clear distinction between "Turns" and "Game Turns" (BGB, pg. 9). The solar pulse clearly uses the term "Turn" while Lord of the Storm clearly uses the term "Game Turn". Of course...I'm not sure we're actually arguing about anything unless someone still thinks a Solar Pulse stops Imotekh from extending night fighting.

No, that is something that we, as gamers, have added to the sequence. There is no "end of turn" part of the sequence. Look on page 9 - there are 3 parts of the turn. Movement Phase, Shooting Phase and Assault Phase.

The turn ends when your opponent begins his phases and hence, his turn. We simply give it defintion by letting our opponent know our turn is done.

Question: Does the existence of a "sub-step" between turns actually matter to anything?

Night fighting comes back into play at the end of the turn, and Imotekh checks for Lord of the Storm at the beginning of the turn. Seems cut-and-dry to me.

But what your are saying is that the End of Turn 1 and the Start of Turn 2 are indistinguishable and therefore the same. But this isn't true, they are two entirely separate sequences. As such, something that explicitly and solely happens in Turn 1, no matter when in turn 1 it occurs, does not happen in Turn 2 as well.

Arandmoor wrote:

Question: Does the existence of a "sub-step" between turns actually matter to anything?

Night fighting comes back into play at the end of the turn, and Imotekh checks for Lord of the Storm at the beginning of the turn. Seems cut-and-dry to me.

That's the real question, if that timing matters. It probably doesn't. But I didn't think it was so cut-and-dry.

There are scarier choices in the Necron codex in my eyes. Especially when Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, IG/Space Marines with Searchlights and Tau with Markerlights may not really care much about Night Fighting.

Dr. Delorean wrote:But what your are saying is that the End of Turn 1 and the Start of Turn 2 are indistinguishable and therefore the same. But this isn't true, they are two entirely separate sequences. As such, something that explicitly and solely happens in Turn 1, no matter when in turn 1 it occurs, does not happen in Turn 2 as well.

This.

Having read through the Codex, I have to say that the Necrons can bring some very scary toys to the table, but they are extremely vulnerable to psychic powers (I'm going to have a field day with JOTWW...) and the army-wide I2 is going to hurt them in combat.

Dr. Delorean wrote:But what your are saying is that the End of Turn 1 and the Start of Turn 2 are indistinguishable and therefore the same. But this isn't true, they are two entirely separate sequences.

Can you give me a page number, please?

Edit: It's not there. The rulebook even says that the phases are in place to help you distinguish where one person's turn ends and the other begins. There is no "end turn sequence". The end of turn 1 is the beginning of turn 2. They are one in the same. We like to give it sequence because we, as humans, think laterally, but it is not supported in the rules.

If you want to continue, we can take this to YMDC, but I don't really care enough to argue about it. I can tell you you're right, if it'll make you feel better.

I don't think there's a page number to point out puma, at least I wouldn't know where to look. It's a state change. The state of the game is that we are currently in the Necron player's Turn 1, at the end of that turn we change state to Necron Opponent player's Turn 1, then we state change again to Necron player's Turn 2... etc.. That's not really something you make a rule for, it's been a notion in gaming since forever.

Ok. since my codex wont arrive for another day and a half, can someone tell me what a phaeron is and what it gives a unit it attaches to or upgrades with. Ive heard it mentioned along with relentless. Pretty much, what is it and what does it do.

The Metal Tide wrote:Ok. since my codex wont arrive for another day and a half, can someone tell me what a phaeron is and what it gives a unit it attaches to or upgrades with. Ive heard it mentioned along with relentless. Pretty much, what is it and what does it do.

It gives them and the squad they're attached to the relentless special rule.

peebzguy wrote:

The Metal Tide wrote:Ok. since my codex wont arrive for another day and a half, can someone tell me what a phaeron is and what it gives a unit it attaches to or upgrades with. Ive heard it mentioned along with relentless. Pretty much, what is it and what does it do.

It gives them and the squad they're attached to the relentless special rule.

So.... are they part of a royal court?

The Metal Tide wrote:

peebzguy wrote:

The Metal Tide wrote:Ok. since my codex wont arrive for another day and a half, can someone tell me what a phaeron is and what it gives a unit it attaches to or upgrades with. Ive heard it mentioned along with relentless. Pretty much, what is it and what does it do.

It gives them and the squad they're attached to the relentless special rule.

So.... are they part of a royal court?

It's an upgrade for Overlords.

The Metal Tide wrote:

peebzguy wrote:

The Metal Tide wrote:Ok. since my codex wont arrive for another day and a half, can someone tell me what a phaeron is and what it gives a unit it attaches to or upgrades with. Ive heard it mentioned along with relentless. Pretty much, what is it and what does it do.

It gives them and the squad they're attached to the relentless special rule.

So.... are they part of a royal court?

It is a special rule some Overlords have.

The fact that one is called Turn 1 and one is called Turn 2?

I don't think there's a page in the rulebook saying "These two turns are different 'cos of the numbers" since that is self evident.
Otherwise all turns are indistinguishable from one another and the whole structure becomes a mess.

I am not trying to be condescending here, please don't read this in a tone of condescension, I just don't really know how to better explain a concept that pervades the entire game so completely.

Thanks

Haven't noticed anyone exclaiming how fantastic it is that power weapons and double strength doesn't over ride WBB rolls now.

Okay...whoever was saying that the Triarch Stalker is garbage needs to take another look at it.

I'd put it almost on par with a Chaos Defiler if you spend the 5 points for a Particle Shredder. Yes you lose some important stuff, but the stalker has better armor before a penetrating hit is scored (that doesn't kill it outright), and twin-links all necron shooting attacks against the targeted unit if it scores at least one hit (not hard with a big pie-plate and a BS of 4).

With all the shooting we do, that targeting relay is going to bring some pain...

Besides which, it's an elite. So you don't have to give up any monoliths, doomsday arks, annilihation barges, or spyders to take them.

But seriously, I've seen people utterly dismiss the targeting relay. That ability will push your shooting over the top when used correctly.

As I've now got my hands on the retail codex (as many people have), I thought it would be a little fun to post a summary of the differences between the 'rumors' I posted before of what the codex would contain and what is in the actual book, as a way to perhaps see how the army design changed from an earlier concept to the final one.


ARMY-WIDE SPECIAL RULES

• The Wording for Entropic Strike definitely changed, as the original version did say 'at the end of the phase' when it came to degrading vehicle armor, so clearly they decided they wanted Scarabs and other models with Entropic Strike to be even MORE deadly against enemy vehicles (and without raising the points cost of anything with the ability).


WARGEAR

• Gauss Cannons did drop from 36" to 24". I guess that they really did want reinforce the super-short range shootiness of the Necrons and once they upped the max squad size for regular destroyers they were probably didn't like that people would build whole armies around Destroyers to get a bunch of longer ranged shots.

• I did get how Quantum Shielding worked wrong, but that's only because the older version had a very bad typo in it that made it unclear whether or not glancing hits also removed the shielding. So I don't think this was so much a change, but rather just cleaning up the wording of the rule.

• The 'Exile Beamer' changed into the 'Transdimensional Beamer', but yet somehow it remained a Heavy Weapon (so the Wraiths cannot move and shoot it)? Craziness, IMHO!

• The Warscythe did indeed gain the extra D6 for armor penetration against vehicles, which is huge. But the Warscythe did go from being a free swap for an Overlord's Staff of Light to a 10 point upgrade, so obviously this was a change made (and not just an oversight in the original version). Interestingly, the points cost for Lychguard remained the same despite the buff to their standard weapon, which makes me think that perhaps the return of the bonus penetration was done primarily to help boost the desirability of fielding Lychguard carrying Warscythes.


HQ

• Overlords and some named characters gained the 'Phaeron' rule (or the ability to take the rule in the case of a basic overlord).

• Imotekh went up 5 points from his original cost, but gained 'Phaeron' (which is a 20 pt upgrade for a basic overlord). Also, Imotekh's abilty to generate a bonus Kill Point when killing an IC or Monstrous Creature morphed into just an extra D3 casualties towards combat resolution...I've got to say, I'm really sad to see this rule change. I know it would have been pretty rare for him to get this bonus as he's not that great in combat, but I think the extra Kill Point would have been a really good reason to gamble with putting him into CC. As it stands now, the extra combat resolution bonus is hardly a good reason to ever risk putting him into CC against an enemy character. So overall, it does seem like they felt Imotekh was a bit too powerful (or else that Kill Point rule was too situational since it wouldn't affect 2/3 of games)?

• Nemesor Zahndrekh went down 5 points, but lost his Void Blade for a Staff of Light (bummer). I guess they were really trying to differentiate him from his bodyguard Obyron.

• Oirkan went up 15 points, but got a Transdimensional Beamer (which normally gots 15 points, so it makes sense).

• Anrakyr went down 5 points despite the fact that his Warscythe improved its armor pen abilities.

• Trazyn went up 15 points but gained 'Phaeron'.

• Regular Overlords went down by 5 points but gained the ability to take 'Phaeron'. Hyperphase sword went from 10 points to a free swap. Warscythe went from a free swap to 10 points.

• Destroyer Lords did have the option to take a Staff of Light, so I'm not sure how I misread that before!


TROOPS

• Necron Warriors did go up from 12 to 13 points each.


FAST ATTACK

• Wraiths went down by 5 points, but lost Reanimation Protocols. The particle caster option also dropped by 5 points.

• Scarabs stayed the same cost, but lost Reanimation Protocols although gained a ton of power (against enemy vehicles) through the Entropic Strike boost to compensate.

• Tomb Blade particle beamer upgrade went down 10 points.

• Destroyers went up 5 points, and increased their max squad size from 3 to 5 (although still only 3 are able to upgrade to Heavy Destroyers). Of course, their main weapon also dropped its range by 12" as well! Oh, and the cost for upgrading to a Heavy dropped by 5 as well, meaning Heavy Destroyers were effectively 60 points previously just as they are in the final version.


HEAVY SUPPORT

• Tomb Spyders probably went through the biggest change...their name changed to 'Canoptek Spyder' for starters (instead of 'Tomb Spyder Phalanx'). Their base cost remained the same, but they lost Reanimation Protocols. They previously came equipped base with two 'Dissection Claws' which were basically just two CC weapons (which meant that Spyders would have the bonus attack in CC if they didn't upgrade at all). You could exchange either (or both) Dissection Claws for Fabricator Claws at 10 pts each, and if you had 2 Dissection Claws you then had a +1 on your roll to fix vehicles (so basically a 4+). Now it just costs 10 points to get Fabricator Claws and the best the roll can be is a 4+.

You could also exchange one Dissection Claw for a Whip Coil for 10 points (an option that is sadly not in the final release). And you could exchange one or both Dissection Claws for Particle Beamers (20 pts each), which mean you could have had two separate Particle Beam shots for an extra 40 pts if you wanted. Now you just have one upgrade option to a twin-linked Particle Beamer for 25 points.



So there you have it. A (hopefully) complete breakdown of exactly where my rumors differed from the final release version and some insight on how GW did some final tweaks on some units.

Dr. Delorean wrote:The fact that one is called Turn 1 and one is called Turn 2?

I don't think there's a page in the rulebook saying "These two turns are different 'cos of the numbers" since that is self evident.
Otherwise all turns are indistinguishable from one another and the whole structure becomes a mess.

I am not trying to be condescending here, please don't read this in a tone of condescension, I just don't really know how to better explain a concept that pervades the entire game so completely.

As I said, we can take it to YMDC if you like. The reason there are rules is so that you know how to play. You cannot "assume" in a permissive ruleset - bad things happen. So, what do we do when we can't assume? We follow the rulebook completely. The rulebook doesn't tell you to end your turn. The rulebook tells your opponent to simply begin his turn.

While I know this isn't something you're ready to accept - it is how games in general work. You think that the idea "pervades the entire game so completely" because you're used to playing and you know how the game flows. You know that when assaults are over, it is your opponent's turn. In fact, you probably wouldn't even have to say "Your turn.", but we do it to be polite.

You might think I'm being obtuse or argumentative, but neither is the case. The way a turn ends is not the same in Warhammer 40K, to Warmachine, to Monopoly, to Connect 4. You have to be told, in the rules, how a turn ends. You might think it is common sense, but if you put yourself in the shoes of someone who has never read the rulebook, you'll understand where us "rules" types are coming from. If you've never read the rulebook, you might wonder where the turn ends, since it never says. It simply refers to the phases of the turn and how they dictate where one turn ends and the other begins.

Imotekh and Trazyn are also phaeron's and so therefore grant the unit they've joined relentless.

Arandmoor wrote:Okay...whoever was saying that the Triarch Stalker is garbage needs to take another look at it.

I'd put it almost on par with a Chaos Defiler if you spend the 5 points for a Particle Shredder. Yes you lose some important stuff, but the stalker has better armor before a penetrating hit is scored (that doesn't kill it outright), and twin-links all necron shooting attacks against the targeted unit if it scores at least one hit (not hard with a big pie-plate and a BS of 4).

With all the shooting we do, that targeting relay is going to bring some pain...

Besides which, it's an elite. So you don't have to give up any monoliths, doomsday arks, annilihation barges, or spyders to take them.

But seriously, I've seen people utterly dismiss the targeting relay. That ability will push your shooting over the top when used correctly.

Also, you can take a 36" twin-linked heavy gauss cannon on them if you're really, really scared about having them get shot up if they're up front with everything else.

...could you imagine the devastation wrought by a squad or two of tesla-equpied shooting augmented by the targeting array?

Arandmoor wrote:Also, you can take a 36" twin-linked heavy gauss cannon on them if you're really, really scared about having them get shot up if they're up front with everything else.

...could you imagine the devastation wrought by a squad or two of tesla-equpied shooting augmented by the targeting array?

Who is "them" that you're speaking of?

yakface wrote:
*snip*

Didn't notice the 'Heavy' with Transdimensional Beamer. So, Orikan can't move and shoot either, but he can if he's with a Phaeron.

peebzguy wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:Also, you can take a 36" twin-linked heavy gauss cannon on them if you're really, really scared about having them get shot up if they're up front with everything else.

...could you imagine the devastation wrought by a squad or two of tesla-equpied shooting augmented by the targeting array?

Who is "them" that you're speaking of?

See my post above that. I'll edit so it makes more sense.

Edit: Triarch Stalkers. I'm in love with their targeting array rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow...even our lords have I2 now...

So I'm curious to where people are leaning on this with? Does the order of a model with entropic strike go roll to hit, then entropic check on a 4+, then roll to penetrate? or roll to hit then roll to penetrate then entropic check?

If it's the first that actually helped out scarabs significantly. with 5 attacks on the charge and the fact spyders can increase scarab squads beyond their starting size you could very likely get 12 scarabs to assault a vehicle if played well. 60 attacks on the charge will certainly mess some tanks up.

puma713 wrote:

yakface wrote:
*snip*

Didn't notice the 'Heavy' with Transdimensional Beamer. So, Orikan can't move and shoot either, but he can if he's with a Phaeron.

That's too funny. So if you're crazy enough to take Wraiths with Transdimensional Beamers then you'd definitely want to also take a character with 'Phaeron' and then have them join together the turn they want to fire their beamers! Hell, you can still have the Wraiths move 12" and join the character and then he uses his big booming 'Phaeron' voice to tell them to shoot their guns real quick-like.

I wonder if anyone would be crazy enough to build a Wraith unit with a bunch of Beamers escorted around by a Phaeron Overlord to allow them to shoot...just waiting for the turn to pop through the Monolith Portal and zap somebody. Sounds like a terrible plan, but someone will try it, right?






Automatically Appended Next Post:

hollowmirror wrote:So I'm curious to where people are leaning on this with? Does the order of a model with entropic strike go roll to hit, then entropic check on a 4+, then roll to penetrate? or roll to hit then roll to penetrate then entropic check?

If it's the first that actually helped out scarabs significantly. with 5 attacks on the charge and the fact spyders can increase scarab squads beyond their starting size you could very likely get 12 scarabs to assault a vehicle if played well. 60 attacks on the charge will certainly mess some tanks up.

There's no question. Upon hitting you immediately check to see if you erode the vehicle's armor.

Scarabs will most definitely wreck vehicles like there is no tomorrow.

hollowmirror wrote:So I'm curious to where people are leaning on this with? Does the order of a model with entropic strike go roll to hit, then entropic check on a 4+, then roll to penetrate? or roll to hit then roll to penetrate then entropic check?

If it's the first that actually helped out scarabs significantly. with 5 attacks on the charge and the fact spyders can increase scarab squads beyond their starting size you could very likely get 12 scarabs to assault a vehicle if played well. 60 attacks on the charge will certainly mess some tanks up.

The roll to remove character armor (SV -) happens after their armor roll is failed.

When attacking a vehicle you roll to hit as normal, then check to see if anything penetrated the armor.
Entropic strike affects vehicles after the roll to hit so yes, scarab swarms eat vehicles like little else. Expect to see scarab swarms in every single necron list from now until they remove entropic strike in our next codex (because of Marines QQing about their "precious landraiders").

Step 1: Buy a unit of Heavy Destroyers
Step 2: Buy an Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Have a very expensive unit which has Relentless lascannons.

yakface wrote:
I wonder if anyone would be crazy enough to build a Wraith unit with a bunch of Beamers escorted around by a Phaeron Overlord to allow them to shoot...just waiting for the turn to pop through the Monolith Portal and zap somebody. Sounds like a terrible plan, but someone will try it, right?

Not me. I've got my eyes set on Whip Coils + Time's Arrow


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dr. Delorean wrote:Step 1: Buy a unit of Heavy Destroyers
Step 2: Buy an Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Have a very expensive unit which has Relentless lascasnnons.

Heavy Gauss Cannons are already assault. No need for relentless.

Dr. Delorean wrote:Step 1: Buy a unit of Heavy Destroyers
Step 2: Buy an Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Have a very expensive unit which has Relentless lascasnnons.

Suck it, Longfangs

Edit: ninja'd :(