Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, Abaddon seems very expensive for a 1000 points game. Your characters take up 40% of your army ... Well, it might work I suppose, but you need to make your characters do work. They can't afford to hang back. Abaddon especially needs to be leading the charge.
These are high damage, long range, single shot weapons. Abaddon's reroll aura increases chances to hit by about 16% and his morale immunity aura will probably be important.
Is that worth it?
If this list is going to fight tanks / elite troops / etc, yes. Hordes no.
Well, I'll most likely either be playing against Guard, Blood Angels, or Sisters. I know my buddy doesn't run mechanized Sisters or Blood Angels. So the Lascannons may turn out to be overkill.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, Abaddon seems very expensive for a 1000 points game. Your characters take up 40% of your army ... Well, it might work I suppose, but you need to make your characters do work. They can't afford to hang back. Abaddon especially needs to be leading the charge.
These are high damage, long range, single shot weapons. Abaddon's reroll aura increases chances to hit by about 16% and his morale immunity aura will probably be important.
Is that worth it?
If this list is going to fight tanks / elite troops / etc, yes. Hordes no.
Well, I'll most likely either be playing against Guard, Blood Angels, or Sisters. I know my buddy doesn't run mechanized Sisters or Blood Angels. So the Lascannons may turn out to be overkill.
at what's it now 20 or 15 pts?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Thinking about adding a 20 man unit of plague marines to my Black legion army to act as my front line for Abaddon.
The other option is 2 land raiders loaded with chainhavocs and combi-chosen for a lot of firepower in... fairly tough? shells. Probably having a Dark Apostle give illusory supplication to the land raiders and cast Delightful agonies on one to make it really durable.
if someone think in 9th ed to grab and hold objective with 5 FOOTSLOGGED chaos marines...good luck.
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
blackmage wrote: if someone think in 9th ed to grab and hold objective with 5 FOOTSLOGGED chaos marines...good luck.
I think everyone's figured out we need transports. It'll be nice to dust off the old rhinos. Thinking about taking out my Hellforged Achilles as well. Load it up with some combi-plasma chosen, let's see how long it takes those loyalist melta punks to shoot through that. And yes, I know it isn't efficient, it'll still be fun.
blackmage wrote: if someone think in 9th ed to grab and hold objective with 5 FOOTSLOGGED chaos marines...good luck.
Well 1 squad yes 2 squads are allready annoying 6 squads with the occaisonal Big gun are starting to really bother people generally.
Mostly because often people Overkill 1 unit only to lack for the Next two.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
blackmage wrote: if someone think in 9th ed to grab and hold objective with 5 FOOTSLOGGED chaos marines...good luck.
Well 1 squad yes 2 squads are allready annoying 6 squads with the occaisonal Big gun are starting to really bother people generally.
Mostly because often people Overkill 1 unit only to lack for the Next two.
not so much, a decent competitive list take easily out at least 3 squad/turn and then you have no way to hold obj, you score at start turn so you have to survive 1 full turn, i have some games in my basket, there are ton of firepower out there folks...
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
And the objectives cannot be in cover, so whoever is on the objectives are out in the open ready to be charged and shot at. The objectives are death traps. But everyone will still do their best to get units on them ... because VP are everything now. You could lose most of your army, even your warlord, and its irrelevant as long as you are ahead in VP and you maintain your lead.
Even your warlord is now a dispensable unit. (unless your opponent took slay the warlord, or unless you took united we stand and your warlord is one of your most expensive models). Actually, I just double checked the rulebook. Tabling an opponent doesn't gaurantee you an auto win at all. You simply play our the rest of the battle without your opponent and then the two of you tally up the points. It still boils down to VP. If your opponent tables you on turn 4, but can only move his units onto the objectives on turn 5, he gets zero benefit from that because he can't still doesn't score any VP for that. (since VP are scored at the start of the turn).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/02 14:26:35
Emperors Children Mutilators are sneaky good objective takers, Deepstrike, charge a unit on an objective, (using the turn 1 dice into a 6 on the charge strat). Wipe the unit and then watch as they have t shift a 3w 2+ 5++ model that costs 35 pts.
demontalons wrote: Emperors Children Mutilators are sneaky good objective takers, Deepstrike, charge a unit on an objective, (using the turn 1 dice into a 6 on the charge strat). Wipe the unit and then watch as they have t shift a 3w 2+ 5++ model that costs 35 pts.
What unit is a single Mutilator wiping?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Usually 5 man squads, which if you havent whiddled them down to that by the shooting phase youre doing something wrong. But basic troops, they can take care of, but the important thing is once theyre on an objective they require a large amount of firepower to shift.
i saw play mutilators, they dont do anything better than EC termy does. last game i had 3 mutilators charged primaris and they neede 2 turns to kill them and 1 mutilator only survived. For me no sense, they are just cheap. Anywya if you like play EC maybe yes a 3man unit can be played, but i still prefer greatly termies, 40 plasma shots and then they charge, with elixir veteran of long war and excess of violence they delete almost anything. EC lists have a problem....noise cost too much and die too easy, compared to DG (guess actually the best competitive legion) they are overcostly glass cannons, if i play EC maybe just a vanguard with 2xmutilators and plasma termies
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2020/08/02 18:30:11
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
blackmage wrote: i saw play mutilators, they dont do anything better than EC termy does. last game i had 3 mutilators charged primaris and they neede 2 turns to kill them and 1 mutilator only survived. For me no sense, they are just cheap. Anywya if you like play EC maybe yes a 3man unit can be played, but i still prefer greatly termies, 40 plasma shots and then they charge, with elixir veteran of long war and excess of violence they delete almost anything. EC lists have a problem....noise cost too much and die too easy, compared to DG (guess actually the best competitive legion) they are overcostly glass cannons, if i play EC maybe just a vanguard with 2xmutilators and plasma termies
What kind of primaris were they fighting? I am kind of surprised the primaris managed to kill 2 Mutilators considering that Mutilators are quite tanky.
2 attacks atleast and the occaisional hammer do allow for some decent chance at failing save throws.
That said, if he charged a 10 man squad hed' have to have some serious bad luck, which is quite possible considering the random nature.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
blackmage wrote: i saw play mutilators, they dont do anything better than EC termy does. last game i had 3 mutilators charged primaris and they neede 2 turns to kill them and 1 mutilator only survived. For me no sense, they are just cheap. Anywya if you like play EC maybe yes a 3man unit can be played, but i still prefer greatly termies, 40 plasma shots and then they charge, with elixir veteran of long war and excess of violence they delete almost anything. EC lists have a problem....noise cost too much and die too easy, compared to DG (guess actually the best competitive legion) they are overcostly glass cannons, if i play EC maybe just a vanguard with 2xmutilators and plasma termies
What kind of primaris were they fighting? I am kind of surprised the primaris managed to kill 2 Mutilators considering that Mutilators are quite tanky.
4xagressors over an objective behind a ruin, more than enough to give hell to mutilators
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
blackmage wrote: i saw play mutilators, they dont do anything better than EC termy does. last game i had 3 mutilators charged primaris and they neede 2 turns to kill them and 1 mutilator only survived. For me no sense, they are just cheap. Anywya if you like play EC maybe yes a 3man unit can be played, but i still prefer greatly termies, 40 plasma shots and then they charge, with elixir veteran of long war and excess of violence they delete almost anything. EC lists have a problem....noise cost too much and die too easy, compared to DG (guess actually the best competitive legion) they are overcostly glass cannons, if i play EC maybe just a vanguard with 2xmutilators and plasma termies
What kind of primaris were they fighting? I am kind of surprised the primaris managed to kill 2 Mutilators considering that Mutilators are quite tanky.
4xagressors over an objective behind a ruin, more than enough to give hell to mutilators
wellp, but you charged right? So you got pretty unlucky with the rolls or how did they manage to fight back?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Maybe they popped transhuman strategem. I have watched quite a few games of 40k 9th ed. now. Its not just one big unit vs another big unit. You have to factor in strategems possibly being used by both sides.
In a deathguard vs Salamanders matchup on tabletop titans. A full squad of 10 stormshield terminators charged a full squad of 10 blightlords. The blightlords actually fought first because they had a character that removed the effects of charge. But the terminators not only weathered their attacks, but also struck back, then fought twice, and killed off the blightlords. Strategems make a very big difference. If you have a huge beefy unit that is a big core of your army, you will use all available strategems to give you the edge, when it fights another big unit.
We may need to consider what other armies will be bringing to the table to get that objective. Somehow, 10 chaos terminators now seem to be a lot more flimsy than I first thought ,,,
Or we admit that 40k has turned in essence into Magic combo wombo...
Rellying more on gimmicks and secondaries that are often more oppresive than complete counter lists and the tailoring included for many an army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/03 11:09:49
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Eldenfirefly wrote: We may need to consider what other armies will be bringing to the table to get that objective. Somehow, 10 chaos terminators now seem to be a lot more flimsy than I first thought ,,,
This was my experience. I had full unit of 10 terminators with combi-bolters, chainaxes and chainfists in the middle with Abby and some chosen, and basically everything died in one turn to 1k sons psychic and shooting phases. The psychic phase I anticipated to lose a lot in and didn't have adequate counters to but 1 rubric squad was able to double shoot I think 3 terminators off the board an an entire 5 man bike squad on another objective in 1 turn.
yes you can fight 1st but...when you wound on 4's with just 12 attacks hitting on3's you cant kill enough then they fight back with their power fist, you dont kill them and next turn if you survived the melee you are whipped off table anyway. Again they are a decent choice in a EC list but just as distraction, main task should be made by EC termies, better if you give them plasma/melta
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/03 14:26:40
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
Well I swapped Abaddon out of my list for a terminator lord with combi melta/power fist, dropped a 5 man squad, and added 2 rhinos.
My buddy played guard. He ran a hellhound, 3 chimera, a sentinel, a lemon russ with punisher, a Wyvern(I think), creed, a techpriest, 2 infantry squads and a veteran squad.
I won by a solid margin. His dice rolls were hating on him and I made good use of cover. I was able to keep him off of the objectives for most of the game. Rhinos are too expensive for my taste but were well worth the points as LOS blockers. Lascannon Havocs getting prescience and endless cacophony deleted vehicles. Im glad I didn't bring cultists this game cuz his russ would've wiped them all out in no time. My 5 man squads did fairly well in cover. He was able to pop a few of the guys but took more firepower than it should've to wipe a 5 man squad. Mistakes were made on my part by not taking bring it down as a secondary(I had assassinate, thinking about squishy sergents), but it would've been overkill. Black legion trait only really helped once or twice with morale. The warlord trait to refund command points was clutch since it allowed me to use endless cacophony more. The smaller game board also worked to my advantage since it probably saved me a turn of movement to get to objectives. I really need to convert some sorcerers and lords with jump packs(probably just use possessed winged back packs).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/03 22:18:59
I'm not feeling Abaddon in 9th edition. It might be the tables I'm using on TTS but it feels like I'm trapping myself in my deployment zone and concentrating my force in one area. I have 0 board influence and am struggling to get points beyond kill secondaries, but my opponents blow me away on primaries so it doesn't matter.
But then one wonders why one would even go Black Legion, since the major gain there is Abaddon's re-roll aura...
I wish I had a better idea of what a "normal" board is going to look like, because the "pro" ones I've found on TTS are very boring symmetrical affairs with obscuring terrain blocking the corners of your deployment zone (so deep strikers can drop in unmolested unless you have units to spare to screen) and a blocking obscuring terrain across the middle of the deployment zone so you have to deploy exposed to a flank or at least choose 1 and commit if you're balling up around buffers like Abaddon and Dark Apostles.
Kind of frustrating. I was having a better time in 8th edition where the play style worked. Now I don't know what to do with the legion boys.
Abaddon needs to move aggressively such that he threatens a midboard objective on T2. He is wasted if we are just going to keep him on our home objective to buff shooters. If we are going to do that, then I might as well run a termi lord. The reroll is less powerful, but I would be saving over 100 points.
We need to be aggressive with him such that opponent is forced to deal with him. But I do feel that Abaddon is a challenge is use properly. You almost always have to build a list around him, and yet when you do that, you tend to cluster too much around him, which leads to over focusing on one point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/04 01:13:12
After my game last weekend I though about what difference Abaddon would've made and I agree that Abaddon NEEDS to be in the thick of things to get his true value. If you want to walk him to the midfield I'd have him walking with a couple squads of Havocs since they take no penalty to moving and shooting heavy weapons. Though with his warlord trait making Death to the false Emperor a 5+, and his Aura I'm more inclined to run him with combi plasma terminators. They're cheap durable can make decent use of both of his buffs.
Well, yea that's what I'm doing... I'm giving a mobile firebase re-rolls but due to terrain I can't move out of deployment zone into good positions easily. And I can't get to objectives outside of my deployment zone.
edit: and because of obscuring terrain, I can't bring my firepower to bear on enough of the enemy army to matter much, and all of my units are squishy,
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/04 01:58:43
Rihgu wrote: Well, yea that's what I'm doing... I'm giving a mobile firebase re-rolls but due to terrain I can't move out of deployment zone into good positions easily. And I can't get to objectives outside of my deployment zone.
edit: and because of obscuring terrain, I can't bring my firepower to bear on enough of the enemy army to matter much, and all of my units are squishy,
Can I ask why terrain is preventing you from moving out of deployment? Because If you are using Abaddon and mostly infantry units around him, then they are not stopped by terrain like ruins, they just go straight through. So unless your board has a lot of obstacles terrain ? If you are running Abaddon alongside daemon engines then yeah, it would be a problem, because he is significantly slower than Darmon Engines plus everything would be somewhat hindered by terrain. If you are doing that, you probably have to set him and his engines up in a clear lane to walk through from the very start and just take any shooting that comes his way.
One issue I face with Pairing up Abby with Havocs though. Abby tends to want to charge straight forward, while Havocs often want to position sideways to gain a better firing arc. (If its range, then lascannon Havocs are already in range, so moving forward doesn't benefit them at all). So, it is a bit of a conundrum.
More than one faction seems to be considering bring a lot of vehicles. And transports got a boost this edition too. So, I wonder if a list with few or zero vehicles would be kind of a counter meta list.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/08/04 02:39:01
Eldenfirefly I've been thinking MSU in transports were going to be big again this edition. A list with little to no vehicles could work. Utilize deep strike and fast infantry. Perhaps a bike based list?
Tons!
Tons!
Tons!
2,000pts
