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I'd like to see some tourney folks' take on these things. It seems to basically take FW "non-40k approved" items, and make them de facto "40k approved" if Escalation is allowed (via the Lord of War slot), right?

What do tournament organizers / attendees think of the new FW document, and do you plan to allow it if allowing Escalation?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf

For example, looks like the big dogs of the Reaver and Phantom are both in (first pic below). I actually can't find anything that is NOT in yet after a quick search! Hierophant for Nids, Thunderhawk for Marines, and Manta for Tau are also in. Basically everything...






Oh man

@RITIDES -

AdeptiCon Gladiator format was basically "Escalation" for the past 10 years.

We are keeping calm, taking a deep breath and going to take it all in before we leap as we got some time yet on our side. Others have to make more immediate decisions which is understandable.

The present and future for Games Workshop is larger kits. In an age of 3rd party companies, and 3D printing .. Games Workshop is going to leverage the advantages they have available.

The game over the years has moved from a squad level skirmish game, to adding armour , to full blown model count armies, to armies with flyers, ... and now warmachines.

AdeptiCon will continue to run, multiple events formats throughout the weekend to cater to a wide variety of gaming interests. We have 18 seperate 40K events on the schedule this year, and it expands every year.

More concerning about the list is that it references two books in some cases for unit rules instead of just the most current publication. I will have to take a closer look.

-Hank

That's a great response, Muwhe, and I look forward to your thoughts on it once you've looked at the document more (regarding the books it references).

And I think having Escalation = Gladiator is a perfect way of looking at it, if things shake out that way... obviously, as you say, there's no rush to decide for most events. But I do think this makes it pretty clear that Escalation is basically Apocalypse by another name, which for most folks has been outside the scope of a "normal" game of 40k (but fun to try once in awhile- just not in every game).

Or at least that's my take very interested in hearing others', though!

Escalation is way different than Apocalypse! You, uh, have to follow the force org and there's no Finest Hour/Master of Disaster!

It is also not about really 40k today, next month or over the next 4 months. It is about the future direction of 40k .. digital releases, and larger kits.

While it might be a simple matter short term to just exclude it. As the design studio continues with each release to design with Escalation in mind it will become harder and harder to "balance" 40k but at the same time exclude one of the key design considerations.

Basically what Hank said. Keep calm, roll dice, let December settle. Also, people need to quickly learn to generally ignore any GW official "stance" on these, as the Warrior's Code update will quickly make apparent.

Nothing has REALLY changed, we still have a broad span of books full of rules for armies, formations, individual units, alternate ways of playing the game, mods, etc., in addition to the main rulebook, and the freedom as attendees and organizers both to set things up and play them the way best suits any # of potential players.

 RiTides wrote:
What do tournament organizers / attendees think of the new FW document, and do you plan to allow it if allowing Escalation?

I don't think there's any debate about this. If you're going to allow Escalation at all you have to allow the FW list. Doing anything else is ridiculously biased in favor of Eldar since it gives them the only game changing superheavy while limiting everyone else to garbage like the Tigershark.

For example, looks like the big dogs of the Reaver and Phantom are both in (first pic below). I actually can't find anything that is NOT in yet after a quick search! Hierophant for Nids, Thunderhawk for Marines, and Manta for Tau are also in. Basically everything...

To be fair, point limits are going to rule most of those out. The Phantom and Manta are over 2000 points, and the Reaver isn't far behind. Though it would be hilarious to see a 1500 point army consisting of a Reaver titan and a single inquisitor...

 RobPro wrote:
Escalation is way different than Apocalypse! You, uh, have to follow the force org and there's no Finest Hour/Master of Disaster!

Well played

And sound advice, muwhe / MVBrandt. I guess I just found it amusing that the supposedly important distinction betwen "40k approved" and "not 40k approved" stamped units from Forgeworld was basically thrown out the window by GW now via the Lord of War slot, and allowing almost anything that wasn't "40k approved" to be taken in that slot.

 RobPro wrote:
Escalation is way different than Apocalypse! You, uh, have to follow the force org and there's no Finest Hour/Master of Disaster!

I will say, strategic assets make the game... drop melta with shield generator? Ba Bye Titan.

The thing is, GW has actually made everything quite simple for TOs / players to customize events or games however they like. With every option nearly being legal and providing clearly delineated rules books/codices/releases (ie: Escalation, DIgital Releases, Supplements, Formations, etc), everyone has very clear ways to pick and choose how to play.

GW has given us a smorgasbord. The variety, character and number of unique options is nearly endless and can be customized to our own wishes. This is actually a great time to be in the game because we can literally have our imaginations run wild and provide us with endless entertainment value whether it is in competitive or casual play.

If there is a truly bad part for me in this whole adventure - it will be having to find the will power to work out more and not get sucked into all of the cool options and possibilities.

 Inquisitor_Malice wrote:
The thing is, GW has actually made everything quite simple for TOs / players to customize events or games however they like. With every option nearly being legal and providing clearly delineated rules books/codices/releases (ie: Escalation, DIgital Releases, Supplements, Formations, etc), everyone has very clear ways to pick and choose how to play.

GW has give us a smorgasbord. The variety, character and number of unique options is nearly endless and can be customized to our own wishes. This is actually a great time to be in the game because we can literally have our imaginations run wild and provide us with endless entertainment value whether it is in competitive or casual play.

If there is a truly bad part for me in this whole adventure - it will be having to find the will power to work out more and not get sucked into all of the cool options and possibilities.

Good attitude, Greg!

I agree actually, I think this opens the doors a lot to some cool stuff. It's a bit of shock and awe, and we have to choose what to use in which events, but when we work all of that out we have so many options!

We're looking at multiple format events, like Old School Adepticon. I think it will be fun, we just have to work through the freak out phase.

That is a good attitude... Will try to warm up to it a bit, but to borrow a phrase Reecius used elsewhere, I'm still in the "shock and awe" phase

I think when Flyers came out we had a similar reaction to the sky was falling that we are all seeing on the internet. I agree with the sentiments here that we should all just sit back and let it shake out to see what happens. Play it off. Keep a positive attitude like Malice

 Inquisitor_Malice wrote:
GW has given us a smorgasbord. The variety, character and number of unique options is nearly endless and can be customized to our own wishes. This is actually a great time to be in the game because we can literally have our imaginations run wild and provide us with endless entertainment value whether it is in competitive or casual play.

Thank you.

The minute you let Revenant Titans and un-nerfed Str D in the door, you may as well open the floodgates at that point.

When this whole thing came out, Yak made the very excellent point that toned down Str D would have made this the best expansion ever. Nerd D to something like S10 Armor Bane, Ignore Invul Saves and really you solve every issue with it, aside from how insanely survivable the Eldar titans are. With FW tossed in the mix you give other armies more variety, instead of just IG hogging the spotlight.

 Phazael wrote:
The minute you let Revenant Titans and un-nerfed Str D in the door, you may as well open the floodgates at that point.

When this whole thing came out, Yak made the very excellent point that toned down Str D would have made this the best expansion ever. Nerd D to something like S10 Armor Bane, Ignore Invul Saves and really you solve every issue with it, aside from how insanely survivable the Eldar titans are. With FW tossed in the mix you give other armies more variety, instead of just IG hogging the spotlight.

I love the idea of toning down strength D a bit, although you still have to keep it very good. D being a simple S10 AP1 means that every superheavy with multiple shot S8 AP2 weapons are a lot better all of a sudden than single shot D weapons. Basically it has to ignore invulnerable saves/fnp/cover/reanimation to retain some special character, like you already suggested. But after that change one (albeit very minor) issue remains. Superheavies with strength D weapons do quite well against Gargantuan creatures. Superheavies with strength D weapons that can only do 1 wound per shot get massacred by Gargantuan creatures which can put out something like 15 S10 shots on the superheavy per phase. Likewise, a Revenant vs Revenant duel would never end since both would essentially be armed with flashlights. They'd shoot eachother for six turns for no casualties, but I guess that's not very different from Riptide vs Riptide or Wraithknight vs Wraithknight (with cover saves) duels, so I guess that point isn't very relevant.

Then D weapons are Str 10 AP 1, ignores cover, armor bane, fleshbane. Subtract 2 from all invulnerable saving throws made against a D weapon ( though a 6 still succeeds for any model with an invulnerable save) and no save of any kind can ever be rerolled. Also D weapons do 1+d3 wounds/structure points in total to any model not killed outright.

Does this meet everyone's criteria?

DarthDiggler wrote:
Then D weapons are Str 10 AP 1, ignores cover, armor bane, fleshbane. Subtract 2 from all invulnerable saving throws made against a D weapon ( though a 6 still succeeds for any model with an invulnerable save) and no save of any kind can ever be rerolled. Also D weapons do 1+d3 wounds in total to any multi wound model not killed outright through instant death.

Does this meet everyone's criteria?

Meet's my criteria atleast. It's close enough to give it a try in a multi-table tournament and then observe the results and make adaptations wherever necessary. With that change all of a sudden people don't need to ban screamerstars and jetseers since the (balanced) strength D answer exists. Many armies get strength D into them for as little as around 400 points. Then just bump the points value from standard 1.85K to standard 2.25K and people can still fit an army around their superheavy too. With the way the metagame works, only a certain amount of people need to bring armies that counter death stars to result in death star beatsticks not being played anymore, which in turn means strength D isn't mandatory anymore, which in turn should lead to better games.

I also think that you need to cap the max superheavy cost to about 1k, if we are talking an escalation game, which seems to be where GW drew the line on their own. I don't think you really need anything beyond fleshbane and ignore invulnerables to balance SH vehicles against gargantuans, because gargantuan critters have tons of hard counters against them in the regular rules against normal troops as it is. There is enough ID weaponry out there (which still does d3 wounds) to keep them in check, creating a sort of Gargantuan > Superheavy > Standard Infantry > Gargantuan rock paper scissors situation. Also, I do not see spammy S8 being a solid alternative to nerfed D weapons as a problem, but rather a variety creating solution.

The gargantuan creature thing only works until someone takes the FW flying gargantuans...

DarthDiggler wrote:
Then D weapons are Str 10 AP 1, ignores cover, armor bane, fleshbane. Subtract 2 from all invulnerable saving throws made against a D weapon ( though a 6 still succeeds for any model with an invulnerable save) and no save of any kind can ever be rerolled. Also D weapons do 1+d3 wounds/structure points in total to any model not killed outright.

Does this meet everyone's criteria?

Sounds a little complicated.

Here's my take on Houserule D.

S10 AP1 Ignore Cover, Armourbane, Fleshbane

Successful Invuln's must be re-rolled.

D3 Wounds/Hull Points

 jy2 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
Then D weapons are Str 10 AP 1, ignores cover, armor bane, fleshbane. Subtract 2 from all invulnerable saving throws made against a D weapon ( though a 6 still succeeds for any model with an invulnerable save) and no save of any kind can ever be rerolled. Also D weapons do 1+d3 wounds/structure points in total to any model not killed outright.

Does this meet everyone's criteria?

Sounds a little complicated.

Here's my take on Houserule D.

S10 AP1 Ignore Cover, Armourbane, Fleshbane

Successful Invuln's must be re-rolled.

D3 Wounds/Hull Points

I think this is easily the best house rule. Everything with Str D is still insanely powerful but not cripplingly good. Why on Earth they copied over the rules from Apoc where you can bring units back for VP, take assets which literally prevent the enemy shooting, have formations tailored to killing titans/GCs and generally just get more stuff I have no idea.

Would you guys make any adjustments to the Super Heavy Fliers like the Thunderhawk? My fear is as a flyer it is only hit on a 6, gets the flyer save (cnt Jink though), most D weapons cant hurt it because they are blast, and with a D weapon of its own it will quickly remove all your anti flyer meaning nothing can really hurt it. Did I miss something in the rules or is this thing really that good?

I think its better to have D bypass invulnerable saves, because there are ways to get around cover, but if you allow Invuls to work then its back to screamstars and hamminators largely ignoring it, which I think is undesirable. The presence of Tau and ability to assault units relying on cover make using cover as a defense less certain. Besides, what makes more sense: A guy hiding in a fox hole to avoid the uber planet killer death ray or some roided out marine with a magical trash can lid deflecting it?

Regarding the Gargantuan FMCs, there is no language exempting them from grounding tests in Escalation and none of the existing ones (outside of the named Thirster) have D capability in assault. I think that is a fair limitation, considering you can spray some bolter fire and lawn dart one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit- With nerfed D, the thunderhawk is fine. It looks scary, but you have to remember that once people adjust to something like this in the meta, you will start seeing things like 3 Necron fliers, 2-3 Vendettas, dedicated skyfire units, and long range S10 AP1 firepower to compensate as regular features of armies. You might even see Helldrakes with reapers on them instead of flamers. Yeah a Thunderhawk can really lay down a lot of firepower, but its still only AV12/12/10 and it costs half the army in points which is a sizable sacrifice for SM armies that want to cover their bases.

I agree with the point about invulnerable saves, which is why I thought -2 to invulnerable saves (or just ignoring them) is a better idea than forcing succesful invulnerable saves to be re-rolled. A 2+ invulnerable save is still going to be largely unaffected by titankillers which is undesirable.

There's one thing about superheavy flyers that I don't get. How come does the Vampire have 12 hull points for 730 points (and comes with strength D and holo-fields) but the AX-10 only gets 6 hull points for 660 points? They have similar weaponry, and the titan holo-field alone makes up for the difference in armour value, so basically the Vampire just has double the wounds for free. Tau got shafted on that one for sure.

I'd be open to Escalation with "house rule" D weapons. But as it is I have no real interest in it without that tweak.

What if the D is the same as now, but if you had cover save (any cover), you can 6+ to avoid getting killed / one HP less and the like. In addition, if you had invulnerable save, you get 6+ save the same as with cover save. But if you had both, then you have 5+?

I'd be hoping for a simpler D-weapon house rule rather than that, personally... but anything is better than nothing!

Are the various Superheavy CCW's strength D? Stompa, Lord of Skulls etc.

 Therion wrote:

There's one thing about superheavy flyers that I don't get. How come does the Vampire have 12 hull points for 730 points (and comes with strength D and holo-fields) but the AX-10 only gets 6 hull points for 660 points? They have similar weaponry, and the titan holo-field alone makes up for the difference in armour value, so basically the Vampire just has double the wounds for free. Tau got shafted on that one for sure.

Really? It's because they have no idea what they're doing, and making up point costs as they go along.

Look at the Daemon Lords. Their point costs are gimmicky references to the sacred numbers of the chaos gods, not any indication of how valuable they are. These point costs have not changed over the last 6+ years, through 3 codex changes (including re-categorization from Chaos Marine to Chaos Daemons) and any number of rule changes. Their stats have changed in every release, the basic abilities of Gargantuan creatures have changed three times (from FW-only, to apoc, to apoc2013) and yet their point cost remains a constant.

Why does one FW thing cost more than another? Because that's what they wrote down in their drunken stupor. Questioning this stuff will only drive you insane.