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I would almost bet Jervis didn't instigate it. We instigated it. People have been dropping from the game because of a lack of balance (perceived) and rules issues. Things were done, and people let go because sales for 40k have plummeted. Jervis was brought in to try and help clean it up.

Great. We needed Andy, but got Barney.

Posted By Toreador on 08/30/2007 4:26 PM
I would almost bet Jervis didn't instigate it. We instigated it. People have been dropping from the game because of a lack of balance (perceived) and rules issues. Things were done, and people let go because sales for 40k have plummeted. Jervis was brought in to try and help clean it up.

The problem is the balance issues were made worse by the last three books not better.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When you are trying to address balance problems you cannot do a little here or there. You have to do a reset. Test everything against each other ensure the kinks are ironed out and then release. THe current method doesn't fix things. Codex Eldar will be the book to beat for a very long time (or suffer from the Chaos books real problem, stealth reprints).

Heck, the doom siren didn't even become a problem until what the third reprint.

Sorry, really weird double post.

Posted By untitled on 08/30/2007 3:50 PM
In summary then: Jervis instigated a mid-edition reset in order to replace some of the existing Codexes with some badly-balanced, no-brainer filled crap that invalidated many people's armies. Genius.

Can't wait for Codex Space Marines: Jervis Edition. Maybe they will remove everything except tactical squads. Even then, they would find a way to fzorgle up the internal balance.

Here is a quick summary of the new marine list for you

HQ:

Captain, Librarian, Chaplain (all are 2 wound basics) with limited equipment options

A command squad (5 close combat marines with 2 or 3  special or close combat options)

Elites

Terminators (5 men one heavy, either "shooty" or hand to hand 

Scouts

veterans (3 special or close combat options, no jump packs)

Troops

5 or 10 man marine squads (with combat squad option, limited gear on vet sarge)

Fast

5 or 10 man assault (with combat squad option, limited gear on vet sarge)

Land speeder squads (1 to 3 up to two tornados)

Bike and Assault bike squads

Heavy

5 and 10 man devestaors (with combat squad option, limited gear on vet sarge)

Vindicators

Predators

Land Raider and Crusader

 

There you have the new marine book.

 

Posted By efarrer on 08/30/2007 5:18 PM

Posted By untitled on 08/30/2007 3:50 PM
In summary then: Jervis instigated a mid-edition reset in order to replace some of the existing Codexes with some badly-balanced, no-brainer filled crap that invalidated many people's armies. Genius.

Can't wait for Codex Space Marines: Jervis Edition. Maybe they will remove everything except tactical squads. Even then, they would find a way to fzorgle up the internal balance.

Here is a quick summary of the new marine list for you

HQ:

Captain, Librarian, Chaplain (all are 2 wound basics) with limited equipment options

A command squad (5 close combat marines with 2 or 3  special or close combat options)

Elites

Terminators (5 men one heavy, either "shooty" or hand to hand 

Scouts

veterans (3 special or close combat options, no jump packs)

Troops

5 or 10 man marine squads (with combat squad option, limited gear on vet sarge)

Fast

5 or 10 man assault (with combat squad option, limited gear on vet sarge)

Land speeder squads (1 to 3 up to two tornados)

Bike and Assault bike squads

Heavy

5 and 10 man devestaors (with combat squad option, limited gear on vet sarge)

Vindicators

Predators

Land Raider and Crusader

 

There you have the new marine book.

 

You forgot
Elites
Dreadnout

Fast Attack
Scout Bikes.

Other than this I fail to see a problem with the list.

Posted By Toreador on 08/30/2007 4:26 PM
I would almost bet Jervis didn't instigate it. We instigated it. People have been dropping from the game because of a lack of balance (perceived) and rules issues. Things were done, and people let go because sales for 40k have plummeted. Jervis was brought in to try and help clean it up.

No.  Management instigated it.  When they tasked Andy Chambers with designing 4th ed, Chambers took the opportunity to overhaul the entire system.  When he presented his revision to management they soundly rejected it on the grounds that it was too different from 3rd ed.  They wanted a ruleset that would work with 3rd ed codices with minimal adjustment.  Balance and playability were secondary to the requirement of backwards compatitbility.  So he promptly scrapped his 4th ed ruleset, turned in a minor reworking of the 3rd ed rules as instructed, gave management the finger and quit.

Fast-forward a couple years.  The studio is adrift.  Without a strong Overfiend to provide a counterbalance the bean counters are firmly in charge.  They have demanded that the Black Templars along with the 3 primary marine variants from 3rd ed be treated to full army releases complete with full standalone codices and plastics.  Pete Haines is gone.  Graham McNeill has been canned for doing his job (evidently management didn't realize that the popularity of Black Templars in 3rd ed stemmed largely from their horribly overpowered rules, so when McNeill did what any halfway competent games designer should have done and toned them down, their sales suffered and McNeill was canned).  Players' interest and enthusiasm have waned as releases (almost half of which are now marines) proceed at a snail's pace and a 3-month rumor window leaves some factions (Orks) with no hope for the foreseeable future.  The clunky Frankenstein monster that is 4th ed continues to shamble along.  Sales suffer.  Privateer Press is eating their lunch.

So they have a core ruleset designed primarily for compatibility with codices that were written for a different ruleset.  Half of the existing codices were written by designers who no longer work there.  They have a policy of no FAQs, no fixes, no revisions (at least of the non-stealth variety) to codices until they are rewritten for the next edition.  So what do they do at this late hour?  What's their solution?  They bring in Jervis and tell him to "fix it" - one codex at a time.  And then they let Gav Thorpe write the new Chaos codex.  What a clown show.

Posted By vhwolf on 08/30/2007 5:25 PM

You forgot
Elites
Dreadnout

Fast Attack
Scout Bikes.

Other than this I fail to see a problem with the list.

Actually I also forgot:

M Calgar

Tigerius

Cassius

Who will be all the special characters needed because they represent the archtype of all Ultramine founded chapter core characters.

As well the 4 commanders from Apoc. may show up (to ensure that the box sells after Apoc. slumps.

And the Techmarine

This is worse than some of the Hollywood rumour sites!!

But it is yes an amalgamation of books and system. But like any semi first editions it will have teething problems, especially when it has leftover books. You can slowly fix books ,but you really need FAQs to work it all out and keep in touch with the gamers. Without it, they seem to distant and in an Ivory tower.

Well my Chaos army box arrived today.

I love the new CSM bitz, the Terminators are nice, the Possessed are pretty, and the Spawn should be fun.

Oh, and the Codex is junk.


I also got the new Apocalypse Accessory sprue for the vehicles. Interesting items on it.

BYE

So what's the sprue like?

As far as models go, they have been doing better and better. It's the rules they tend to have problems with. Funny that fantasy has it so easy.

Did anyone else notice that Gav and Allessio don't know the 4th edition rules? In their battle report Gav blows up the Berzerker Rhino top of turn 1. On the bottom of turn 1 Allessio moves the Berzerkers out of the wreck and towards the Guard lines. Aren't they entangled after their transport explodes

I enjoy the game, but I don't like what I am seeing from these guys and blatent incompetence is just the tip.

Posted By DarthDiggler on 08/31/2007 7:54 AM
Did anyone else notice that Gav and Allessio don't know the 4th edition rules? In their battle report Gav blows up the Berzerker Rhino top of turn 1. On the bottom of turn 1 Allessio moves the Berzerkers out of the wreck and towards the Guard lines. Aren't they entangled after their transport explodes

I enjoy the game, but I don't like what I am seeing from these guys and blatent incompetence is just the tip.

Have Gav and Allessio ever known the rules?  This is what everyone is complaining about.  How can you write rules and keep things balanced if you don't even know the game rules to begin with?

Course, you could also say they forgot and decided not to look it up and d6'd it instead, but I'm sure they would have mentioned that for all of us!

Face it, the "games designers" don't have some "grand vision" for the game, and they don't playtest things all that rigorously, and they have a much more casual attitude about the way the game should be played, (if they even play regularly).  Or, they just don't care.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 08/30/2007 6:40 PM: a very well written description, too long to copy in its entirety, of the self-inflicted slow-motion train wreck that GW has become over the past few years.

Thank you for that post, Abby.  I found it to be both amusing and informative.  I think it should be stickied for posterity. 

Posted By Toreador on 08/31/2007 7:33 AM
So what's the sprue like?

As far as models go, they have been doing better and better. It's the rules they tend to have problems with. Funny that fantasy has it so easy.

As a Fantasy player, I would warn against sweeping generalizations.  There are... I was going to say 'just as many', but since I don't play 40K, I don't really have a basis for comparison... there are still major rules issues in Fantasy, and there are more than enough people who will passionately argue interpretations and the meaning of meaning.

40K has turbo-boost invulnerable saves vs. psycannon argument?  Go check out the fight over the Pit of Shades vs Steam Tank.  Or the argument about charge reach vs charge range, and whether they are intended to be the same thing.

Posted By fellblade on 08/31/2007 10:12 AM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 08/30/2007 6:40 PM: a very well written description, too long to copy in its entirety, of the self-inflicted slow-motion train wreck that GW has become over the past few years.

Thank you for that post, Abby.  I found it to be both amusing and informative.  I think it should be stickied for posterity. 

2nd!

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/31/2007 12:49 AM
Well my Chaos army box arrived today.

I love the new CSM bitz, the Terminators are nice, the Possessed are pretty, and the Spawn should be fun.

Oh, and the Codex is junk.


I also got the new Apocalypse Accessory sprue for the vehicles. Interesting items on it.

BYE

Hey HBMC, can Obliterators still deepstrike, or have they lost that ability?

Personally I like a lot of the missing variety and customization in the new Codex, because I found it to be an annoying pain in the ass in the old one. I have better things to do than manage massive army lists. I am upset about what happened to daemons, but there will be a daemon book next year at some point, although given that there are really only about 25 useful pages in the book, there?s no reason that much of the crap could not have been cut out to make room for daemon rules. Gimping the defiler was horrible, but I never bought one because the models were a PITA to assemble and transport. The new mark system isn?t as horrible as it seems if you buy an icon for a 20-man squad for a lot less than the cost of individual marks.

I do have complaints, tho. Obliterators cost too much now. Land raiders still suck. Possessed still suck. Dreadnoughts suck. And the suckiness of these units does lead me to assume that nobody in GW is actually playing the game other than the interns who really do those battle reports for White Dwarf.

Posted By Doctor Thunder on 09/01/2007 11:16 AM

Hey HBMC, can Obliterators still deepstrike, or have they lost that ability?

They can still Deep Strike. So now they're deep-striking mutated Techmarines armed only with energy weapons. All for more points than the older, superior version.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 09/01/2007 2:52 PM

Posted By Doctor Thunder on 09/01/2007 11:16 AM

Hey HBMC, can Obliterators still deepstrike, or have they lost that ability?

They can still Deep Strike. So now they're deep-striking mutated Techmarines armed only with energy weapons. All for more points than the older, superior version.

BYE

Thanks man. 

Can they deep strike always, like terminators, or just when the mission allows?  Because I was thinking that Obliterators make a really nice support unit for a Deathwing-style chaos army.  Deep-Striking Chaos Terminator squads with lots of combi-plasma, backed up with Deep Striking Obliterators and Demon Princes.

Oblitz with plasma cannons + Lash of Fzorgle >>>>> Oblitz with heavy bolters

Oh yeah and w00t! 50 pages.

Do I get like the Warseer Award for Dakka's Longest & Fastest Growing Thread?

BYE

H.B.M.C,

Award ? Definitely ! And also the award for "Most controversially debated Codex Review ever !"

Love the review (after 50 pages and fzgorgle, does anyone actually remember it?) and the comic touches, particularly the " **** you! "  to the individuals responsible for many an online lament lately...

Cheers,

Padre^.

Firstly, I wanted to say that I don't like Dakka Dakka. I don't like this forum at all, and I wouldn't have joined here had it not been for this review permeating another forum.

Secondly, I have to say that it's people like you, and literary trash like this that I don't come to DD at all.
When I read this over at the B&C, I was expecting a well thought out synopsis.
Boy was I disappointed. It was just some trash-talking, GW hating knowitall that has written a contradicting, self-serving, hideous rant that insults anyone who liked the codex and the direction it has gone.

You're ignorant dude. Seriously *fudge*ing ignorant.
I hope you die alone, eating a landmine sandwich.


Over and out;

Kane.

 

++EDIT++ Yeah, this is flame-baiting. You can go ahead and delete this account, the only reason I joined this forum was to tell HBMC that you are the worst *fudge*ing human being I've had the chance to even hear about in years.
I hope your mama's damn proud of you boy.

Posted By CiaphasKane on 09/02/2007 5:25 AM

When I read this over at the B&C,

AND....there goes your credibility out the window.

Oh dear, looks like we've upset one of the GW fanboys from B&C. Not discussing any particular point, just saying "I hate this forum and I hate you" is pretty lame and childish. I guess you'll disappear when the school holidays end.

Or maybe Jervis really does post on internet forums?!

I don't know personally about the whole legions etc. business as I don't play Chaos, but I do genuinely feel badly for players losing all sorts of options. I mean, I resent the fact that my Witch Hunters list is limited by the required Priests to take things like Penitent Engines and Arco's, necessitating either putting a (bad) 40+ point model in with a Sister's squad, limiting them to assault/rapid fire shooting, or fielding Repentia (which are not so good either) to get Penitents, which are also not so good (but fun). So it is easier to have a more streamlined, efficient list with 3 Exorcists than a more fluffy, diverse and thus fun list. That bothers me, so I can really empathize with Chaos players who have their plethora of options limited so sharply.
I agree the old codex had just crazy amounts of options (some of which were decidely poor) and could have used trimming down, but it allowed for more diversity and theme in armies. The new list might be perfectly functional, but it really seems to limit what had previously been a codex offering many, many paths for making a unique army to just a few.
Personally, I would never complain if someone wanted to use the old list, or LatD, for their army. I just don't think the new codex does the army justice, whether or not it is balanced better.

Posted By malfred on 09/02/2007 6:42 AM

Posted By CiaphasKane on 09/02/2007 5:25 AM

When I read this over at the B&C,

AND....there goes your credibility out the window.

At least I read HBMC's entire synopsis before discrediting him.

I'm not surprised you failed to notice the parts in my own rant ins aying that much of the "review" was contradictory, and in many cases, blatantly incorrect.

Oh, and also, I'm not sure where the source for "JJ's kid is mentally challenged" comes from, but I've seen a -lot- of mention from it here on Dakkadakka, which shows really weak intellect.

Back onto the "review", the few attempts to show the "good side" of the chaos codex were laughable. The contradiction between Khorne being a mindless killer and not having any martial prowess, and then ripping on havocs being able to take IoK was my favorite. (Teeth of Khorne anyone?)

I'm seriously done here. Three posts and I already feel sick.
However, at DG.org I had a good reason to be. *thin smile*

Kane, over and out.

Posted By CiaphasKane on 09/02/2007 9:04 AM

Posted By malfred on 09/02/2007 6:42 AM

Posted By CiaphasKane on 09/02/2007 5:25 AM

When I read this over at the B&C,

AND....there goes your credibility out the window.

At least I read HBMC's entire synopsis before discrediting him.

I'm not surprised you failed to notice the parts in my own rant ins aying that much of the "review" was contradictory, and in many cases, blatantly incorrect.

Oh, and also, I'm not sure where the source for "JJ's kid is mentally challenged" comes from, but I've seen a -lot- of mention from it here on Dakkadakka, which shows really weak intellect.

Back onto the "review", the few attempts to show the "good side" of the chaos codex were laughable. The contradiction between Khorne being a mindless killer and not having any martial prowess, and then ripping on havocs being able to take IoK was my favorite. (Teeth of Khorne anyone?)

I'm seriously done here. Three posts and I already feel sick.
However, at DG.org I had a good reason to be. *thin smile*

Kane, over and out.

Here we go.

1. You are a troll. I shouldn't feed you, but...

2. HBMC doesn't feel a lot of positives about the book. He prefaced it as such and indicated it should be read as such.

3. Havocs with the IoK is silly, given the fulff inside the book.

4. The idea that JJ's son is metally slowed is JJ's own damned fault. He has held his 12 year old's difficulty with the rules as a reason for simplifying the game. All of us know kids or remember being 12 and it wasn't too complicated. We didn't bring his kid into it. HE did... and he should have known better. We  (as a community) aren't really knocking the kid, it's JJ's fool reasoning we are knocking. The child is probably no less intelligent than the average 12 year old, but simplifying the game isn't the way to improve his mind. At 12 years old (grade 6 or 7), the child should just be enetering algebra, which is what army construction is (remember your teacher telling you it had a use in the real world, it does. Here's one. There are others.) The darned game is 12+, that's what is says on the box.

Edit: Added the text in black to complete my thought and clarify it.

Figured I might as well weigh in here - seems like everyone else with a login has. I've got about 12k points in Chaos (not including the FW titan) as well as Necron, Cadian, and Space Pup armies anywhere from 2.5k - 5k in size.

So, I log into the forums after a lengthy hiatus from the game to see this awesome new supplement, Apoc. It juiced me up to break out my collections and call up some friends to see if they were interested in rekindling the 40k flame.

Then I saw that Chaos was getting another codex. I read this thread, and talk about crestfallen...

I like numbers, and I like options. I like tinkering and seeing what's possible (whether it will work or not, fluffy or not, etc). I feel like I've been handed a Space Marine codex that has the special rule: And They Shall Know No Options. Fear yes, options no.

Sadly, the hype I felt has been crushed, and I probably won't even get Apoc now. The new 'dex has killed the impulse.