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Icemyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Your P1 is misleading - while the counters are not part of the unit, the model they represent absolutely is.

Quoted for Truth.

However, SA does not remove EL counters and EL counters must be rolled for at the end of the phase.
What rule keeps you from rolling and placing the model?

The fact that the unit was destroyed and cannot be rescued. Putting the unit back on the table (in the form of bringing a model back through EL) is absolutely rescuing the unit - and with no explicit mention of over-riding SA, that is forbidden.

edit: 20 pages! wewt.

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:In order for your destroy wording to function as you are wanting it would Invalidate Meks, Spyders, Techmarines.
Gone Forever removed from existence is something you cannot come back from.
That is your and Berzerkers definition not mine.
My point is that your wording is incorrect, and if it is incorrect there it must be incorrect for EL.

In answer to the question the rule EL is the explicit reversal. It allows a model that does not exist on the Battlefield to be placed, or recover from being destroyed.

No, it wouldn't. As I said, those units have special rules that override the destruction.
EL does not give permission to come back from destroyed. It gives permission to come back from wiped out.
Unless I missed a rule citation somewhere in the past 19 pages?

I am not speaking of the unit level I am speaking of the model level. The Model was removed as a casualty EL Placed.
The Unit was destroyed not the Model and this has no Effect on the EL Token that I can find in the rules.
Again what stops the EL Token from being rolled for?

Icemyn wrote:

kirsanth wrote:And that "this stage" is not Sweeping Advance [occurring] and is an indeterminate instant.

You have yet to establish this with any rule.

Because it isn't ...

You know what? Nevermind. Read the thread. You were involved in the conversation where that was covered and either you're forgetting or willingly ignoring it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Your P1 is misleading - while the counters are not part of the unit, the model they represent absolutely is.

Quoted for Truth.

However, SA does not remove EL counters and EL counters must be rolled for at the end of the phase.
What rule keeps you from rolling and placing the model?

The fact that the unit was destroyed and cannot be rescued. Putting the unit back on the table (in the form of bringing a model back through EL) is absolutely rescuing the unit - and with no explicit mention of over-riding SA, that is forbidden.

edit: 20 pages! wewt.

I refer you back to the timing of SA. as it has not been shown to live outside any instance but when it is resolved.

Also, Damn I wanted to start page 20..

Icemyn wrote:

I am not speaking of the unit level I am speaking of the model level. The Model was removed as a casualty EL Placed.
The Unit was destroyed not the Model and this has no Effect on the EL Token that I can find in the rules.
Again what stops the EL Token from being rolled for?

BeRzErKeR wrote:The Necron FAQ indicates that the IC himself is still a member of the unit even when he's dead; which means that, like all the rest of the unit, he is destroyed by the SA (meaning yes, he's 'killed' twice).

That, honestly, seems to be the bit people are ignoring. The IC is dead; SA kills him AGAIN, and he doesn't have any permission to place an EL counter for that. So even if he DOES make his EL roll. . . he's still destroyed, without any chance to come back.

Still haven't gotten any answer to this point. Am I missing something really obvious?

time wizard wrote:

Yad wrote: P1: RP/EL counters are not part of the unit. (they are markers used to keep track of the number of casualties) Necron Codex p.29 1st Paragraph*

Doesn't sy that in my copy of the codex.

Really? To quote, "Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken."

time wizard wrote:

Yad wrote:P2: SA does not destroy RP/EL counters. (SA destroys the Unit). BRB SA rules

The SA rule says nothing about counter of any type.

Agreed

time wizard wrote:

Yad wrote:P3: A completed Fall Back move removes and remaining RP counters, but not EL counters. Necron Codex p.29 1st paragraph

Does say the former, but does not mention the latter.

Not quite. Under Reanimation Protocols you remove any RP counters if the unit completes a fall back move. Under EL the only time it interacts with RP is for the purposes of determining how to roll, and how to return an EL model to a Unit it had joined.

time wizard wrote:

Yad wrote:P4: RP/EL rolls are not defined as a saving throw. Necron Codex p.29 2nd paragraph

Tru enough, they aren't.

Yad wrote:P5: EL(RP) rolls are made at the end of the Assault Phase. Necron Codex p.29 2nd paragraph

This also is true.

But where did you get the first 3 'rules' from?

Icemyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:In order for your destroy wording to function as you are wanting it would Invalidate Meks, Spyders, Techmarines.
Gone Forever removed from existence is something you cannot come back from.
That is your and Berzerkers definition not mine.
My point is that your wording is incorrect, and if it is incorrect there it must be incorrect for EL.

In answer to the question the rule EL is the explicit reversal. It allows a model that does not exist on the Battlefield to be placed, or recover from being destroyed.

No, it wouldn't. As I said, those units have special rules that override the destruction.
EL does not give permission to come back from destroyed. It gives permission to come back from wiped out.
Unless I missed a rule citation somewhere in the past 19 pages?

I am not speaking of the unit level I am speaking of the model level. The Model was removed as a casualty EL Placed.
The Unit was destroyed not the Model and this has no Effect on the EL Token that I can find in the rules.
Again what stops the EL Token from being rolled for?

You can't address the model without addressing the unit. That's literally impossible.
You don't shoot at models, you shoot at units.
You don't assault models, you assault units.
You don't wipe out models, you wipe out units.
The unit was destroyed. You cannot rescue the unit without violating SA.

Let me try again. Too make this easy we will use Warrior Unit 1 (WU1) consisting of Crpytek (C), and 2 warriors (W1, W2)

1. C is killed at Initative 10
2. EL token (EL1) is placed.
3. W1 is killed at Initiative 9
4. RP token (RP1) is placed.
5. W2 fails morale check and falls back.
6 RP 1 is removed due to fallback.
7. W2 is swept.
8. Per Sweeping Attack WU1 is destroyed and immediately removed.
9. EL roll is attempted and passed.
10. C (and therefore WU1) are returned to play despite, the fact SA disallows anything to save the unit unless the special rule specifies that it does.
11. Since EL/RP does not say anything about SA, it cannot be used to get around SA.
12. Therefore step 10 cannot happen.

Ever-Living:
"roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter. If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play. . .as explained in Reanimation Protocols."

Reanimation Protocols:
"Reanimation Protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit is destroyed, once the last model has been removed, remove all your counters from the unit."
It does not say remove all your Reanimation Protocols counters.
And SA immediately destroys the unit.

Icemyn wrote:I refer you back to the timing of SA. as it has not been shown to live outside any instance but when it is resolved.

Also, Damn I wanted to start page 20..

Asked and answered some time in the last 20 pages. I'm not going to search for it for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:Let me try again. Too make this easy we will use Warrior Unit 1 (WU1) consisting of Crpytek (C), and 2 warriors (W1, W2)

1. C is killed at Initative 10
2. EL token (EL1) is placed.
3. W1 is killed at Initiative 9
4. RP token (RP1) is placed.
5. W2 fails morale check and falls back.
6 RP 1 is removed due to fallback.
7. W2 is swept.
8. Per Sweeping Attack WU1 is destroyed and immediately removed.
9. EL roll is attempted and passed.
10. C (and therefore WU1) are returned to play despite, the fact SA disallows anything to save the unit unless the special rule specifies that it does.
11. Since EL/RP does not say anything about SA, it cannot be used to get around SA.
12. Therefore step 10 cannot happen.

This 110%.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

I am not speaking of the unit level I am speaking of the model level. The Model was removed as a casualty EL Placed.
The Unit was destroyed not the Model and this has no Effect on the EL Token that I can find in the rules.
Again what stops the EL Token from being rolled for?

BeRzErKeR wrote:The Necron FAQ indicates that the IC himself is still a member of the unit even when he's dead; which means that, like all the rest of the unit, he is destroyed by the SA (meaning yes, he's 'killed' twice).

That, honestly, seems to be the bit people are ignoring. The IC is dead; SA kills him AGAIN, and he doesn't have any permission to place an EL counter for that. So even if he DOES make his EL roll. . . he's still destroyed, without any chance to come back.

Just gonna keep on quoting myself until somebody says something about it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:[quote
All of this is true. However, the Necron FAQ indicates that the IC himself is still a member of the unit even when he's dead; which means that, like all the rest of the unit, he is destroyed by the SA (meaning yes, he's 'killed' twice).

That, honestly, seems to be the bit people are ignoring. The IC is dead; SA kills him AGAIN, and he doesn't have any permission to place an EL counter for that. So even if he DOES make his EL roll. . . he's still destroyed, without any chance to come back.

While I think you've got a good case now with the FAQ for asserting that the IC is now considered to be part of the unit even when removed from play as a casualty, the EL counter that was first placed still exists and has to be handled at the end of the phase. SA doesn't get rid of that even if it 'kills' the model twice.

-Yad

Except, if you pass the EL roll you have "saved" the unit which goes against SA.

Yad wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:[quote
All of this is true. However, the Necron FAQ indicates that the IC himself is still a member of the unit even when he's dead; which means that, like all the rest of the unit, he is destroyed by the SA (meaning yes, he's 'killed' twice).

That, honestly, seems to be the bit people are ignoring. The IC is dead; SA kills him AGAIN, and he doesn't have any permission to place an EL counter for that. So even if he DOES make his EL roll. . . he's still destroyed, without any chance to come back.

While I think you've got a good case now with the FAQ for asserting that the IC is now considered to be part of the unit even when removed from play as a casualty, the EL counter that was first placed still exists and has to be handled at the end of the phase. SA doesn't get rid of that even if it 'kills' the model twice.

-Yad

Ok, that's fine. . . but then how do you deal with the fact that, according to SA, he should still be dead?

Basically, what I'm saying is this; you've killed the model twice, and only brought him back once. There seems to be a disconnect.

1) Model hacked down. EL counter placed.

2) Unit swept; model is destroyed in ADDITION to being removed as a casualty. No permission to place an EL counter here, so you've still only got the one.

3) EL roll taken. You succeed.

What happened to the SA result?

kirsanth wrote:Ever-Living:
"roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter. If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play. . .as explained in Reanimation Protocols."

Reanimation Protocols:
"Reanimation Protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit is destroyed, once the last model has been removed, remove all your counters from the unit."
It does not say remove all your Reanimation Protocols counters.
And SA immediately destroys the unit.

I don't agree with your take on it. EL counters and RP counters are two different animals. As I said before, the only time EL counters reference the RP rule mechanic is for determining how you roll the dice and interpret the result, and how you return a model to play upon a successful roll. That's it. The statement in the EL rule that says, "At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter.", does not mean that you use the full set of rules described in the RP section. Likewise, when you succeed on your EL roll you use the RP rules to figure out how to return the model to play if, and only if, the EL model was part of a unit when it was removed. In all other instances you follow the rules laid out in the EL section. Which means that you do not remove the EL counter when the Unit completes a Fall Back move. You only remove the RP counters.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Yad wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:[quote
All of this is true. However, the Necron FAQ indicates that the IC himself is still a member of the unit even when he's dead; which means that, like all the rest of the unit, he is destroyed by the SA (meaning yes, he's 'killed' twice).

That, honestly, seems to be the bit people are ignoring. The IC is dead; SA kills him AGAIN, and he doesn't have any permission to place an EL counter for that. So even if he DOES make his EL roll. . . he's still destroyed, without any chance to come back.

While I think you've got a good case now with the FAQ for asserting that the IC is now considered to be part of the unit even when removed from play as a casualty, the EL counter that was first placed still exists and has to be handled at the end of the phase. SA doesn't get rid of that even if it 'kills' the model twice.

-Yad

Ok, that's fine. . . but then how do you deal with the fact that, according to SA, he should still be dead?

Basically, what I'm saying is this; you've killed the model twice, and only brought him back once. There seems to be a disconnect.

1) Model hacked down. EL counter placed.

2) Unit swept; model is destroyed in ADDITION to being removed as a casualty. No permission to place an EL counter here, so you've still only got the one.

3) EL roll taken. You succeed.

What happened to the SA result?

At first glance yes, there appears to be a bit of an oddity here. However, I really don't think you can 'kill' a model twice. Even if I were to accept that, I don't think you are justified in removing the counter. There are very explicit instructions for when you can remove the RP/EL counter. Indeed, SA never has anything to do with the counters. It's the Fall Back that actually removes them. And even then, only the RP ones.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@BeRzErKeR: One other thing. It's one thing to say that a model that is removed from play can affect models/units in play (as the Necron FAQ clarified for the Res Orb only).

Can that go the other way around? Are there game examples/rules that allow you to affect models that have been removed from play?

I'm not talking about models held in reserve, or embarked on a vehicle, I'm specifically talking about models/units that have been:

Destroyed; Wiped Out; Removed from Play; Removed from Play as a Casualty; ...

My point being, can SA destroy a model that has been removed from play? I know, I know, SA doesn't destroy models it destroys units. But it's an important point in that the Unit, for the purposes of resolving SA, should only be those models that are 'in play'.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and aside from some histrionics and virtual foot-stamping, I've quite enjoyed this thread

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:I refer you back to the timing of SA. as it has not been shown to live outside any instance but when it is resolved.

Also, Damn I wanted to start page 20..

Asked and answered some time in the last 20 pages. I'm not going to search for it for you.

It actually was never answered Rigeld. Seriously, never has been, the last time we spoke about it
you stated we agree to disagree and walked away from it.

You are more than welcome to challenge that assertion, but that is where it was left.

I only ever conceded this argument based on the supposed ruling about destroyed. Now that that has been called into question I have revisited my points which were not answered.

My reasoning is you have no reason to use the Idiomatic reading for SA. None, whatsoever.
So to say that EL Conflicts with SA without a rule to show why we should read it any other way
then the way it is written is false.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
You can't address the model without addressing the unit. That's literally impossible.
You don't shoot at models, you shoot at units.
You don't assault models, you assault units.
You don't wipe out models, you wipe out units.
The unit was destroyed. You cannot rescue the unit without violating SA.

Jaws. That is all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:
Oh, and aside from some histrionics and virtual foot-stamping, I've quite enjoyed this thread

-Yad

Agree, There is actual intelligent debate for both sides for the most part.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, and the unit was destroyed.

You say again, somehow thinking repeating it makes it true.

So, yet again, you are ignoring the Res Orb FAQ which states that yes, a downed model is STILL part of their unit. Which is why you are wrong. Again.

where does it say it is part pf the unit?

Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes."

he was part of that unit then he was removed as a casualty.

him/his wargear no longer being on the table is irrelevant.
this is a blanket statement that says just because i am no longer influencing the game any more cause i am no longer on the table and my model has been removed. my res orb still works for you guys and when i roll it works for me too.

no where does it say this token is part of the unit. this counter this object we are referring to as a RP/or EL token.

the removed model put a lasting effect on his unit even though that model no longer exists. this is only due to the faq.


now on topic

SA destroys the unit so be it. the EL token is not part of the unit.

at the end of the phase after all combats have been resolved roll for your token...

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

OK he no longer has a unit to go back to that's fine he will be his own unit. now don't construe that as he becomes a new unit. not what i am saying. what i am saying is that he was/is part of the destroyed unit that got swept and do to the necron ability's to get up, got up.

so no the unit AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME was not "saved" rescued" or anything else. to say SA lasts the remainder of the assault phase is absurd

kirsanth wrote:Ever-Living:
"roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter. If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play. . .as explained in Reanimation Protocols."

Reanimation Protocols:
"Reanimation Protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit is destroyed, once the last model has been removed, remove all your counters from the unit."
It does not say remove all your Reanimation Protocols counters.
And SA immediately destroys the unit.

You're leaving out some important points there. I hope you're not doing it on purpose.

Icemyn wrote:My reasoning is you have no reason to use the Idiomatic reading for SA. None, whatsoever.
So to say that EL Conflicts with SA without a rule to show why we should read it any other way
then the way it is written is false.

The literal definition of "at this stage" would be "at this point". That doesn't limit it to a certain period of time.
If I write a check for more money than I have in the bank, my account will start accruing overdraft charges at this point. That doesn't mean it will stop in the future - there has to be something that stops it. In the bank accounts case, it is me depositing money. In SA's case, it must be something that explicitly allows the unit to be rescued.

rigeld2 wrote:
You can't address the model without addressing the unit. That's literally impossible.
You don't shoot at models, you shoot at units.
You don't assault models, you assault units.
You don't wipe out models, you wipe out units.
The unit was destroyed. You cannot rescue the unit without violating SA.

Jaws. That is all.

Jaws removes a model from play. Jaws even targets a unit, not a model - or did you not check the FAQ?
I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

Yad wrote:The statement in the EL rule that says, "At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter.", does not mean that you use the full set of rules described in the RP section.

From the FAQ:

Is the roll for an Ever-living counter the same as a
Reanimation Protocol roll. . .? (p29)
A: Yes. . .

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:My reasoning is you have no reason to use the Idiomatic reading for SA. None, whatsoever.
So to say that EL Conflicts with SA without a rule to show why we should read it any other way
then the way it is written is false.

The literal definition of "at this stage" would be "at this point". That doesn't limit it to a certain period of time.
If I write a check for more money than I have in the bank, my account will start accruing overdraft charges at this point. That doesn't mean it will stop in the future - there has to be something that stops it. In the bank accounts case, it is me depositing money. In SA's case, it must be something that explicitly allows the unit to be rescued.

rigeld2 wrote:
You can't address the model without addressing the unit. That's literally impossible.
You don't shoot at models, you shoot at units.
You don't assault models, you assault units.
You don't wipe out models, you wipe out units.
The unit was destroyed. You cannot rescue the unit without violating SA.

Jaws. That is all.

Jaws removes a model from play. Jaws even targets a unit, not a model - or did you not check the FAQ?
I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

First, Jaws because its easier. Jaws does target the first unit in the line but it does not target the rest of the units of models who happen to be along that line. Additionally, for fun Dangerous Terrain. Your move holy man.

Second, Your idomatic example is flawed and more proof of my point then yours. The word that allows the ongoing effect is not "At this point" it is "Start". With out the word Start : "my account will accrue overdraft charges at this point." Now you have a reference of one overdraft charge or charges without an ongoing effect happening at that moment. Again, the wording of SA does not lend itself to your idomatic reading.

rigeld2 wrote:Jaws removes a model from play. Jaws even targets a unit, not a model - or did you not check the FAQ?
I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

The point is that there is precedent for a model in a unit being acted upon separately from that unit by various special rules, weapons, etc.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote: no where does it say this token is part of the unit. this counter this object we are referring to as a RP/or EL token.

The token represents a model that is part of the unit.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:the removed model put a lasting effect on his unit even though that model no longer exists. this is only due to the faq.

Let me see if I get this. I have a 10 man warrior squad with an attached overseer. In the shooting phase the overseer and 4 warriors are 'killed'. The all get to roll no 4+ for RP and EL because the overseer has a res orb. The overseer fails his roll and is removed, but all 4 warriors make it.
In the assault phase 5 warriors get killed. They now get to use the res orb for the RP roll because accoring to you the removed model put a lasting effect on the unit? So the res orb sorks for the entire game, even long after the character with the orb has been removed? Really?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote: SA destroys the unit so be it. the EL token is not part of the unit.

So the model that the token represents can still use its res orb to aid the unit in its RP rolls, because the res orb affeects, "the model and its unit", but the model is not part of the unit for a sweeping advance.

Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it too!

If the character is part of the unit for the benefits of the res orb, then it is part of the unit for the results of a sweeping advance.

You can't have it both ways.

Happyjew wrote:Except, if you pass the EL roll you have "saved" the unit which goes against SA.

I think I can better explain why I think this 'saved/rescue' argument doesn't work.

Scenario: I'm running an Overlord attached to a unit of warriors and I lose the assault. the Overlord was removed as a casualty and the EL counter placed.

1.) Morale Check fails, fall back move made.
2.) RP counters (if any)are removed. EL counter remains
3.) Opponent attempts to SA my Necron unit. He succeeds on his roll.

At this point I'm am not saying something like, "wait, I'm going to roll for my EL and see if I can stop the SA.". I can't do that per the SA rules. The SA happens and destroys the rest of the unit present on the board (the Overlord has already been removed from play as a casualty). Now that SA has resolved I get to roll for the EL counter. The distinction I'm making is that when a SA happens you cannot, unless specifically allowed, respond to the SA. This is not what EL does. It is not a save that can be used to stop a SA from happening.

-Yad

time wizard wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote: no where does it say this token is part of the unit. this counter this object we are referring to as a RP/or EL token.

The token represents a model that is part of the unit.

I don't see this anywhere in the rules.

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote:The statement in the EL rule that says, "At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter.", does not mean that you use the full set of rules described in the RP section.

From the FAQ:

Is the roll for an Ever-living counter the same as a
Reanimation Protocol roll. . .? (p29)
A: Yes. . .

Yep, the roll is the same. EL uses the same dice rolling mechanic as spelled out in RP. I'm not sure why you think that this then extends to the entire RP rule section. Honestly, I'm not even sure why that question was in the FAQ. The EL rules are very clear about what portion(s) of the RP rules you are supposed to use.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Except, if you pass the EL roll you have "saved" the unit which goes against SA.

I think I can better explain why I think this 'saved/rescue' argument doesn't work.

Scenario: I'm running an Overlord attached to a unit of warriors and I lose the assault. the Overlord was removed as a casualty and the EL counter placed.

1.) Morale Check fails, fall back move made.
2.) RP counters (if any)are removed. EL counter remains
3.) Opponent attempts to SA my Necron unit. He succeeds on his roll.

At this point I'm am not saying something like, "wait, I'm going to roll for my EL and see if I can stop the SA.". I can't do that per the SA rules. The SA happens and destroys the rest of the unit present on the board (the Overlord has already been removed from play as a casualty). Now that SA has resolved I get to roll for the EL counter. The distinction I'm making is that when a SA happens you cannot, unless specifically allowed, respond to the SA. This is not what EL does. It is not a save that can be used to stop a SA from happening.

-Yad

And if the EL roll is passed, then the unit has been rescued from destruction. Is the unit still on the table at the end of the phase? Yes. THerefore the unit was not in fact destroyed or there would not be a unit on the table.
Sa doesn't destroy part of the unit it destroys the unit..

Icemyn wrote:First, Jaws because its easier. Jaws does target the first unit in the line but it does not target the rest of the units of models who happen to be along that line. Additionally, for fun Dangerous Terrain. Your move holy man.

First, you can drop the sarcastic insults. I haven't thrown any your way. Thanks.

Fair enough for that example. It's irrelevant to my point, however - you cannot bring a model back without addressing the fact that the unit is being rescued. Unless you want to assert that a new unit is created, but that way lies madness.

Second, Your idomatic example is flawed and more proof of my point then yours. The word that allows the ongoing effect is not "At this point" it is "Start". With out the word Start : "my account will accrue overdraft charges at this point." Now you have a reference of one overdraft charge or charges without an ongoing effect happening at that moment. Again, the wording of SA does not lend itself to your idomatic reading.

Erm. No. "My account will accrue overdraft charges at this point." That is absolutely an ongoing reference by any common sense reading - without intervention, it will not stop.
"No save or special rule can rescue the unit at this [point]." is an absolute reference to an ongoing state - you can't intervene "unless otherwise specified"
The ball is rolling at this point. Your assertion is that the ball has stopped rolling an instant after it was declared rolling.
The shuttle was in space at this point. Your assertion is that the shuttle plummeted down to the ground after that point.

Happyjew wrote:

Yad wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Except, if you pass the EL roll you have "saved" the unit which goes against SA.

I think I can better explain why I think this 'saved/rescue' argument doesn't work.

Scenario: I'm running an Overlord attached to a unit of warriors and I lose the assault. the Overlord was removed as a casualty and the EL counter placed.

1.) Morale Check fails, fall back move made.
2.) RP counters (if any)are removed. EL counter remains
3.) Opponent attempts to SA my Necron unit. He succeeds on his roll.

At this point I'm am not saying something like, "wait, I'm going to roll for my EL and see if I can stop the SA.". I can't do that per the SA rules. The SA happens and destroys the rest of the unit present on the board (the Overlord has already been removed from play as a casualty). Now that SA has resolved I get to roll for the EL counter. The distinction I'm making is that when a SA happens you cannot, unless specifically allowed, respond to the SA. This is not what EL does. It is not a save that can be used to stop a SA from happening.

-Yad

And if the EL roll is passed, then the unit has been rescued from destruction. Is the unit still on the table at the end of the phase? Yes. THerefore the unit was not in fact destroyed or there would not be a unit on the table.

Should be no surprise that I disagree

When the SA is resolved the Unit has been destroyed and removed from the table. All the entrance and exit criteria for SA has been satisfied. The unit has been well and truly destroyed. Now, at the end of the phase, you roll for EL. That doesn't retroactively mean that SA has failed. You've followed the SA rules and done what you were supposed to do.

Happyjew wrote:Sa doesn't destroy part of the unit it destroys the unit..

Agreed.

-Yad

Yad wrote:The EL rules are very clear about what portion(s) of the RP rules you are supposed to use.

Agreed.
All of them, unless specified otherwise. Since EL is done "just as" RP.
Not "Here are the ways it is the same".

But do it just as that, but here are differences.