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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So How are Kroot? Someone recommended get 15 kroot and 10 hounds so i can have 75 attacks on the charge. with hounds going before SM in initiative.

Kroot are okay. In the past they were great as a meat shield, but since our mobility went up and their cover quality went down, they lost usefulness. I ended up shifting the points I used to use for kroot to firewarriors that shoot better than kroot.

Someone also said Tau is bad for a new player like me, To be good at them i need t be a veteran.

Tau was my first army and the army I learned to play the game with. They're not the easiest but there is no army strictly for "veterans". That player sounds like they're just trying to tout their experience over you. Ignore it and work hard to become a strong supporter of the greater good.

Tau are not "bad" for new players, they are just hard for new players, as they require a lot of delicate work and pinpoint precision on time, and errors will cost you dearly, yet good moves can yield intense rewards.

They are far more complex then most armies, but that makes them in a way a good practice and quicker to get skill.


As for kroot, dont like them. too squishy.

They've actually become better in 6th, so now I'd say they are better than they were before for beginners.

Tau are great for a starting army. We don't have any crutches to lean on. We can't spam hordes of cheap infantry or tanks, we can't rely on above average stat-lines and massively powerful wargear.

All we've got is force multipliers in the form of Markerlights and some powerful guns, which all cost points. Some of the points costs are too high. Our Plasma Rifle, only carried by our elite soldiers, costs twice as much as a Plasma Gun for a basic Tactical Marine squad. To add insult to injury those basic marines are more accurate with their cheaper plasma gun than our elite infantry are with our more expensive rifle.

How do Tau handle Grey Knights?

Tau handle GK the same waythey handle everything.

Shoot them. Lots. With pulse / rail / plasma / missile weaponry till they fall over, or die trying. :p

Rakeeb wrote:How do Tau handle Grey Knights?

Ovion wrote:Tau handle GK the same waythey handle everything.

Shoot them. Lots. With pulse / rail / plasma / missile weaponry till they fall over, or die trying. :p

Exactly, and now that they lost their "we're all characters" status, it's even easier. Shoot them with AP2-1 weapons to make them take invuln saves and they'll eventually dissapear. They're a small model count army so your target choices are small. Focus them down one at a time. Also, rail guns ID them so broadsides with plasma rifles are a great addition to any heavy terminator meta.

So - in terms of cutting down their infantry, mass pulse rifle is viable, then? There are only so many Broadsides to go around and I figure they'll sight on Dreadknights first and foremost.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So How are Kroot? Someone recommended get 15 kroot and 10 hounds so i can have 75 attacks on the charge. with hounds going before SM in initiative.
Someone also said Tau is bad for a new player like me, To be good at them i need t be a veteran.

In 6th it's pretty much never a good idea for Kroot to charge anything that isn't a vehicle, especially against opponents in cover or with higher initiative because you lose a lot of models before you get to strike. You're better off rapid-firing rifles, then taking the charge (overwatch plus your 2 attacks for everybody who survives). You nearly always get more attacks that way.

That's also why hounds are less worthwhile now, because you almost never charge anything (except vehicles where kroot are just as good as hounds) and you lose the rifle shot.

I routinely use 2 units of 10 kroot with no upgrades. If I know my opponent will be running at me trying to assault, the kroot can make a suicide screen or bubble wrap and give me a couple of extra turns of shooting.

There used to be some youtube videos on how to do this, but I can't find one at the moment.

If my opponent won't be trying to overrun me, I outflank the kroot, especially in the short table edge deployment scenarios where you have that huge long edge to outflank on (and also especially if my warlord rolls a 3 on the strategic table, which gives the kroot acute senses). They are really good at popping onto the table, shooting up backfield troops or a long-range shooty tank that were trying to hide, and sometimes even surviving. Or you can always outflank into some convenient woods in your opponent's DZ and then go to ground for the linebreaker point in most scenarios.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroot in woods are actually quite durable, with a base 4+ save or a 2+ if they go to ground--really hard to displace. Their biggest weakness is the low leadership.

10 kroot is a good number because it's cheap. 13 kroot is the other good number, because you have to lose 4 models before making a break test.

Rakeeb wrote:
So - in terms of cutting down their infantry, mass pulse rifle is viable, then? There are only so many Broadsides to go around and I figure they'll sight on Dreadknights first and foremost.

It is, but only if you have LOTS of it, meaning two whole squads worth at minimum. The more useful stuff is the AP1/2 weaponry that slices through any and all armor they have. A team of 3 broadsides with plasma rifles will be a nightmare for them because of the AP2 rapid fire they carry.

As for the dreadknight, only worry about it if it comes with a teleporter and makes a shunt move. Otherwise, keep your distance and cut away their troops first. Two wound termies in their Paladins are not fun to deal with and you want to get rid of those fast. You can kite around the dreadknight outside of his charge range because he's less of a threat. The reason why is dreadknights are MCs and not vehicles like their dreadnaught counterparts and can't be IDd by your broadsides. A pair of 88s will waste at least two turns trying to kill it, most likely three which is half the game where your 88s could have murdered much more points value in palidins and troop termies.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

All we've got is force multipliers in the form of Markerlights and some powerful guns, which all cost points. Some of the points costs are too high. Our Plasma Rifle, only carried by our elite soldiers, costs twice as much as a Plasma Gun for a basic Tactical Marine squad. To add insult to injury those basic marines are more accurate with their cheaper plasma gun than our elite infantry are with our more expensive rifle.

To be fair they tend to shoot another high-power gun at the same time, and got much more mobility so in the end result they are far more dangerous.

Just had a game where my helios command team spent turn 1 on reducing 5 close-combat scouts who inflitrating badly to 1 dude, then spend turn 2 to remove a bunch of marine bikers from reality. and left unscratched.

Just tried out the turbo boosting melta piranha with seeker missiles to get some nice rear and side AV seeker missile shots, and wouldn't you know it but I was paired up against Nids. Instead it zipped around being annoying and finished off the tervigon in base to base with my bastion. I forgot how fun those little skimmers are.

I want to stress again how awesome the Eldar allies are for Tau. Watching his zoanthropes perils themselves instead of lancing my tanks was a nice change of pace.

Finally, that 2D6 jump move AFTER DEEPSTRIKING is the most wonderful thing ever. Shadowsun now rocks, what with that, the pathfinder fish, and the epic cover save (and saves from dangerous terrain).

I was under the impression that stealth suits and XV-8's were still unable to make a jet pack move after deep striking, because it dictates as much in the Codex. Did that change quietly?

Rakeeb wrote:
I was under the impression that stealth suits and XV-8's were still unable to make a jet pack move after deep striking, because it dictates as much in the Codex. Did that change quietly?

Yes, the tau FAQ completely changed the codex entry to say crisis and stealth suits count as jet pack infantry. The BRB specifically mentions thrusting after deep strike as legal. So DS suits are better now.

I just looked it up and you are as usual right on the money.

That is fantastic, but I feel like it doesn't take certain models' point cost into account. Seems like the XV-9 units just lost some comparative value, and like everything else in this Codex they're overcosted.

Rakeeb wrote:
I just looked it up and you are as usual right on the money.

That is fantastic, but I feel like it doesn't take certain models' point cost into account. Seems like the XV-9 units just lost some comparative value, and like everything else in this Codex they're overcosted.

Let's be honest here, XV-9 suits are awesome and have killer weaponry, but they have always been overcosted from the beginning -They cost the same as a shas'o crisis commander before upgrades, but have no where near the same statline. BS4 for a Shas'vre isn't too much to ask for, i should think.

However My 47 point suicide-suits (twin linked fusion, flamer) can now drop in,. melta a land raider to death, then 2d6 thrust behind terrain and potentially not die automatically. Stealth suits can do similar - deep strike in 15-18" away from the target, rain down with BC firepower, then thrust into area terrain like a crater or ruin and claim a 2+ cover save in the ensuing shooting phase. Tau are officially the mobile gunline army.

I rather use my stealth suits as infiltrators then deep striking, making a gun blob behind some heavy LoS blocker to JSJ them into and away from enemy forces and gain much zone control.

Did it yesterday against TAC marines in a rhino that attempted to deploy at my "weak flank" and get to my fire bases quickly only to discover they are alone against a stealth blob and needless to say the rhino did not survive turn 1, and the tactical got butchered over the game. (the stealth team left them alone after they reached a ration of 7 dead tacticals for 0 dead stealth or drones, and let the incoming kroot squad remove them for the objective)

 BoomWolf wrote:
I rather use my stealth suits as infiltrators then deep striking, making a gun blob behind some heavy LoS blocker to JSJ them into and away from enemy forces and gain much zone control.

Did it yesterday against TAC marines in a rhino that attempted to deploy at my "weak flank" and get to my fire bases quickly only to discover they are alone against a stealth blob and needless to say the rhino did not survive turn 1, and the tactical got butchered over the game. (the stealth team left them alone after they reached a ration of 7 dead tacticals for 0 dead stealth or drones, and let the incoming kroot squad remove them for the objective)

And this right here is exactly how I use them and exactly how they should be used. They provide an extra layer of deception during deployment as well as expand your potential deployment range. The only catch is, be careful of bikes. Stealth teams hate bikes because they can be caught incredibly easily.

So what is everyone's opinion on stealth suits? I am internally torn. On the one hand they are s5 ap5 shots that out army has tons of. They are close range and only really good in cover. Also they are not a scoring unit for objectives, but they can contest objectives at the end of the game by jumping, running and jumping again. They are also almost always on the enemies side of the board for line breaker. On the other hand firewarriors are the same number of shots for the same price but they are scoring units and if they get in 15'' of someone they have twice as many shots as the same priced stealth suits. So should someone take stealth suits and if so how many


Also some other food for thought. The tau only have 8 fingers so their counting system is base 8, 0-7. However because it is base 8 there is no actual number in tau for 8. 8 would be represented as 10. If you look at the transfer sheet you will see the numbers 0-7. So tau does not have a number for 8 but their crisis suit, the hallmark of their army is called the xv8. Should the suit really be called the xv10?

 lambsandlions wrote:
So what is everyone's opinion on stealth suits? I am internally torn. On the one hand they are s5 ap5 shots that out army has tons of. They are close range and only really good in cover. Also they are not a scoring unit for objectives, but they can contest objectives at the end of the game by jumping, running and jumping again. They are also almost always on the enemies side of the board for line breaker. On the other hand firewarriors are the same number of shots for the same price but they are scoring units and if they get in 15'' of someone they have twice as many shots as the same priced stealth suits. So should someone take stealth suits and if so how many

The cover save is a godsend. You don't have to be in cover to utilize it but being in cover maximizes it. Just a 4+ doubles as an invuln save when they hit you with AP3 or better weaponry.

Comparing them to firewarriors is awkward because of the inherent differences in unit mobility, survivability and range. The FOC difference as well means that stealth suits can only be really compared to crisis suits. Crisis suits carry more versatile weaponry for heavier firepower. Stealth teams carry weaker weaponry but are MUCH more survivable due to the cover save. It's a toss up on what is better, but I lean stealth because of the predominance of AP3 or better weaponry in my local meta.

Also some other food for thought. The tau only have 8 fingers so their counting system is base 8, 0-7. However because it is base 8 there is no actual number in tau for 8. 8 would be represented as 10. If you look at the transfer sheet you will see the numbers 0-7. So tau does not have a number for 8 but their crisis suit, the hallmark of their army is called the xv8. Should the suit really be called the xv10?

Just a point of note... Codexes are written in human english, not the tau language. Whatever base their culture uses as a numbering scheme is translated into human base 10. This is also evident in the XV-88 broadside battlesuits as well as the XV-9 forgeworld battlesuits.

3-6 Stealth Suits with 6-12 Gun Drones is fairly brutal.
The reason they're good now because of the +3 to cover which has been covered a lot, but I think the big one in the end is that they actually feel like they're worth their points cost now.

I just wish that stealth suits were harder to hit when it is dark as opposed to in the bright noon-day sun. It doesn't matter too much, but it annoys me. Same goes for the new disruption pods, and units that come with stealth.

So what if they dont get "better" at night?

They are terminator-hard to remove as it is.

So I am wondering at what point do markerlights become worth taking? With disruption pods devilfish are still over cost but they are not completely horrible. They are nice mobile terrain and can get your firewarriors to the other side of the board. One of the biggest disadvantages to pathfinders are the devil fish they must take but now that the devil fish is not that horrible are pathfinders worth a slot in a 1500point army?

Here is a list I am thinking of.

HQ

shas'el plasma rifle, missle-pod, multi-tracker, blacksun filter, drone controller 90
2 shield drones 30


elite

3 xv8 crisis suits plasma rifle, missle-pod, multi-tracker 186

3 xv25 stealth suits burst cannons 90
4 gun drones 40

troops

9 firewarriors 1 shas'ui 100
9 firewarriors 1 shas'ui 100
9 firewarriors 1 shas'ui 100

fast attack

5 pathfinders 60
devilfish disruption pod 85

heavy

3 xv88 broad side team leader, blacksun filter, advanced-stability system, drone controller 248
2 shield drones 30

1 hammerhead rail gun, burst cannons, disruption pod, blacksun filter, multi-tracker 170

1 hammerhead rail gun, burst cannons, disruption pod, blacksun filter, multi-tracker 170
-------------------------------------------------
total 1499

The big hole in the list I feel are the devil fish and pathfinders but maybe it is not that bad. I could replace that 145 points of pathfinders with 2 more crisis suits but would that be better than getting markerlights in the army?

5 Pathfinders isn't really that worth it, 2-3 markers on 1 target... not so amazing.. generally you want at least 6.

To be honest, I would use that 146pts (and a little reshufle) to have 4 squads of firewarriors with ui's and BSFs, 2 extra gun drones for the stealth suits (+team leader and a BSF).

That way the whole army ignores night-fighting, there's 2 more wounds and twin-linked shots on the stealth suits, and there's 4 troops to sit on objectives.

Aun's Teeth! Why on earth do you need so many Markerlights Ovion?

For the tactical tau luminaries:

One thing I've been toying with in my lists is decentralized markerlights. By that I mean avoiding the usual Fast Attack markerlight sources - Pathfinders, Tetras - and instead giving various units throughout the army that functionality along with Target Locks to let them point at other targets if necessary. The idea here is to retain markerlight presence in the army list while also adding more killy power to the army, since I'm not siphoning valuable points into a Pathfinder unit, which typically only carried pulse carbines (and if you're shooting them, something is likely amiss). This'll also allow for additional targeting flexibility for those markerlights, since they can be individually allocated. The examples of things I'm thinking about are Skyray use, Shas'ui units in Fire Warrior teams carrying them, Shas'vre Stealth Suits, Remote Sensor Towers, and possibly XV-84 units. Marker drones are unlikely for me, since they're so points-expensive.

The downsides I can think of are twofold; first, in the case of Fire Warriors, the fact that our designators are heavy weapons will throw things off. Availability of those units will be on a 1 to 1 basis. Second, this means that Markerlight use would play into actual targeting for units I'd like to use to shoot things. Since a unit nominates targets to shoot at as a unit, this means that shooting phases will have to be carefully planned in order to derive maximum benefit from those phases.... things like RST's and Skyrays would shoot first, and then we'd go from there, with networked markerlights being used almost specifically to enable that one unit's shooting.

What do you folks think?

Re: Ovion...I'm thinking Ovion is referring to the volume of Pathfinders, versus needing 5+ markers on one target. I'm guessing that's so that significant numbers of markerlights on a target can be reliably applied by one unit shooting.

Rakeeb wrote:
For the tactical tau luminaries:

One thing I've been toying with in my lists is decentralized markerlights. By that I mean avoiding the usual Fast Attack markerlight sources - Pathfinders, Tetras - and instead giving various units throughout the army that functionality along with Target Locks to let them point at other targets if necessary. The idea here is to retain markerlight presence in the army list while also adding more killy power to the army, since I'm not siphoning valuable points into a Pathfinder unit, which typically only carried pulse carbines (and if you're shooting them, something is likely amiss). This'll also allow for additional targeting flexibility for those markerlights, since they can be individually allocated. The examples of things I'm thinking about are Skyray use, Shas'ui units in Fire Warrior teams carrying them, Shas'vre Stealth Suits, Remote Sensor Towers, and possibly XV-84 units. Marker drones are unlikely for me, since they're so points-expensive.

The downsides I can think of are twofold; first, in the case of Fire Warriors, the fact that our designators are heavy weapons will throw things off. Availability of those units will be on a 1 to 1 basis. Second, this means that Markerlight use would play into actual targeting for units I'd like to use to shoot things. Since a unit nominates targets to shoot at as a unit, this means that shooting phases will have to be carefully planned in order to derive maximum benefit from those phases.... things like RST's and Skyrays would shoot first, and then we'd go from there, with networked markerlights being used almost specifically to enable that one unit's shooting.

What do you folks think?

Re: Ovion...I'm thinking Ovion is referring to the volume of Pathfinders, versus needing 5+ markers on one target. I'm guessing that's so that significant numbers of markerlights on a target can be reliably applied by one unit shooting.

There are a few problems I have with putting marker lights on different unites. First, is mobility. Now that you can move and shoot a pulse rifle at 30'' you don't want to be standing still. And if you move you can only fire the marker light at snap shot. Second, is the point cost. a xv25 with marker lights costs at least 45 points, a shas'ui fire warrior with marker lights cost at least 30 points. marker drones cost 30 points per marker light. Those are all significantly more expensive than 12 point pathfinders. Finally marker light focus is an issue. When you have your marker lights spread out they don't really do much. And you have no guarantee that the unit you want dead will get the lights to kill it. I would much rather have a single source of marker lights.

What we need is a method of *survivable* markerlights at pathfinder costs - currently there isn't really anything we can do in that regard.

Pathfinders, while incredibly useful for +2 points per model over firewarriors, die incredibly quickly the moment any opponent with long-ranged weaponry fires on them (Hurricane bolters on storm ravens, too). What you end up with is a devilfish with a useful ability and 5-8 light infantry. For the same inherent points cost, because the devilfish is a mandatory purchase, you can get a stealth marker team. This too has trade-offs - it uses an elite slot, rather than fast attack, and only gets 3 marker light shots per turn (2 drones, 1 team leader at bs4). The benefits are that the team is mobile (relentless jet infantry), has +3 to cover saves so most usually a 2+ unless you're fighting in a desert, and again can JSJ to position the markerlights where they're most useful.

Given the fact I like to take HQ Shas'O and Shas'El with a unit of 3 Elite suits, i happen to usually have the spare elite slot in my army lists when I need a stealth marker team. If Shadowsun or some other HQ with a stealth field generator were allowed to deploy with pathfinders, their utility would suddenly get a huge boost. As it stands the positives and negatives of each markerlight source depend on your own personal style.


Note: I didn't comment on Tetra Scout Speeders because while they're on my ForgeWorld wishlist, i haven't pulled the trigger on ordering them yet. They seem to me to be the MOST efficient points-per-markerlight unit, and with the new disruption pod rules they get the same (or nearly the same) resilience to long range shooting as stealthsuits.

One thing I'd like to say is the fact that BSFs are almost useless on firewarrior teams. The problem is, unless you're shooting at an MSU army, their armor save is still going to be better than their cover they gain. Save yourself the points, on 4 squads that's enough for another upgrade that may be more useful. I'd only take BSFs on units that are going to be firing farther than 36" to see the enemy or with good AP to not allow cover saves.