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I made my mind up to vote Leave a decade ago, when I was still a teenager. No negative campaigning and scare mongering from the Stay campaign will persuade me to change my mind. In fact, its only going to deepen my contempt for the European Union.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But the EU is more than happy to turn a blind eye to wide-spread human rights abuses in Belarus.

By an amazing coincidence, the main oil pipeline from Russia flows through Belarus before it hits Europe...

Belarus is not an EU member.

Yes, I'd like EU to take a tougher stance on Belarus, but this is not a comparable situation.

Ukraine is not a member of the EU, but the EU was happy to get involved in Ukrainian politics.

Even going so far as to send senior EU bureaucrats to Kiev at the height of the Maiden protests to express official approval and support for the revolution. That was a gross violation of national sovereignty and diplomacy.

I remember when this happened, lots of people pointed that out, but were shouted down as being Putin puppets.

The EU wanted revolution which meant they could continue to pull the tigers tail. Russia decided to continue playing their own game. Are the Ukranians any closer to EU membership?

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

France now threatening that border controls in Calais will go if we leave, despite them not being reliant on EU membership. The situation in Calais has no business coming to british shores, if the French don't like it they should not be allowing illegal immigrants to enter their country and instead deport them. Somehow they get all the way across France and pile up in Calais and start trying to force their way through.

From the linked article:

France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron ... said France would limit access to the single market

So the first maneuvers and threats of economic Brinkmanship begins. For those who vote Leave Beware

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I made my mind up to vote Leave a decade ago, when I was still a teenager. No negative campaigning and scare mongering from the Stay campaign will persuade me to change my mind. In fact, its only going to deepen my contempt for the European Union.

I have fence sat on the issue for a number of years. I have always felt part of Europe but not of the EU. If that makes sense.

It's very much based on scare tactics, threats to block access to their markets, landing us with fees, tempt away bankers and businesses, and drop any pretence of taking responsibility for migrants in their country from illegally crossing into ours. How about some good reasons to stay instead of all these underhanded scare tactics?

I've still not made up my mind. But these tactics of threatening to cane us for leaving as a lesson to other countries that feel similarly exposes just how ugly the intentions of those controlling the EU are.

In that case I think the British government should seriously consider and threaten to re-nationalize British companies and industries that are owned by foreign European governments/companies. Aren't a few of our utility companies owned by European governments?

If they can play at brinkmanship, so can we.

Go for it! *Grabs popcorn*

 Da Boss wrote:
Go for it! *Grabs popcorn*

Ugh, no thanks. I'd rate economic brinkmanship as a kind of MAD. No one really wins and lots of people on both sides loose money and jobs.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I made my mind up to vote Leave a decade ago, when I was still a teenager. No negative campaigning and scare mongering from the Stay campaign will persuade me to change my mind. In fact, its only going to deepen my contempt for the European Union.

I have fence sat on the issue for a number of years. I have always felt part of Europe but not of the EU. If that makes sense.

Absolutely. I like Europe, I've traveled through Europe extensively - annual holidays to France with my parents until I came of age and had to start paying my own way , my parents have a small holiday villa in Spain, I've visited Germany on an exchange trip in school, some of my favourite holidays involved visits to museums, castles and WW2 battlefields in France.

But I don't want a shared government with Europe. Different cultures, different and competing priorities and interests, different and conflicting values. I don't want a foreign politician who does no care for Britain and British interests, in a position of power over Britain. And I expect many French and German voters feel the same way.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I made my mind up to vote Leave a decade ago, when I was still a teenager. No negative campaigning and scare mongering from the Stay campaign will persuade me to change my mind. In fact, its only going to deepen my contempt for the European Union.

I have fence sat on the issue for a number of years. I have always felt part of Europe but not of the EU. If that makes sense.

Absolutely. I like Europe, I've traveled through Europe extensively - annual holidays to France with my parents until I came of age and had to start paying my own way, my parents have a small holiday villa in Spain, I've visited Germany on an exchange trip in school, some of my favourite holidays involved visits to museums, castles and WW2 battlefields in France.

But I don't want a shared government with Europe. Different cultures, different and competing priorities and interests, different and conflicting values. I don't want a foreign politician who does no care for Britain and British interests, in a position of power over Britain. And I expect many French and German voters feel the same way.

Love Europe. Hate the EU.

That's my motto.

Mine is "Consider the End", which seems appropriate in this situation too.

On economic damage if the UK leaves, well, it's to be expected isn't it? I mean, you can make your decisions but there are diplomatic consequences to them at the same time. Imagining you can do what you please with no consequence is hardly realistic.

 Da Boss wrote:
Mine is "Consider the End", which seems appropriate in this situation too.

On economic damage if the UK leaves, well, it's to be expected isn't it? I mean, you can make your decisions but there are diplomatic consequences to them at the same time. Imagining you can do what you please with no consequence is hardly realistic.

Asking us to pay the same fees for access to the single market as (for instance) Norway is a realistic consequence.

France threatening to restrict our access to the single market, shut down border controls and flood Britain with migrants is not realistic, it's a direct threat and going out of their way to exact a petty revenge.

There are natural consequences and then there's threats of deliberate acts of spite used to blackmail. So much for democracy - do as we want or we'll f- you up.

The sooner we get out of the stinking mess that is the eurozone the better.All the scare mongering from france etc is a joke,Today France threatened that the Calais jungle will be pushed onto British soil.What they never admit is that these so called refugees/migrants have got into their country(many illegally) and should be deported by them.The £55 million pounds a day the uk pays into brussels would be far better spent in Britain.The British people need to stand up and say no.

 shingouki wrote:
The sooner we get out of the stinking mess that is the eurozone the better.All the scare mongering from france etc is a joke,Today France threatened that the Calais jungle will be pushed onto British soil.What they never admit is that these so called refugees/migrants have got into their country(many illegally) and should be deported by them.The £55 million pounds a day the uk pays into brussels would be far better spent in Britain.The British people need to stand up and say no.

Well, we're not in the Eurozone. You mean the EU surely?

(INB4 all the In'ners use your obvious brain fart to discredit and mock you).

The Calais threat comes from some centre right French politicians. It's not Hollande threatening this.

And all they are suggesting is to move UK border controls to the UK, rather than doing the border checks in France as they are now.

But whatever, explaining this stuff to you guys is like pissing into the wind - you've already made up your minds.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Mine is "Consider the End", which seems appropriate in this situation too.

On economic damage if the UK leaves, well, it's to be expected isn't it? I mean, you can make your decisions but there are diplomatic consequences to them at the same time. Imagining you can do what you please with no consequence is hardly realistic.

Asking us to pay the same fees for access to the single market as (for instance) Norway is a realistic consequence.

France threatening to restrict our access to the single market, shut down border controls and flood Britain with migrants is not realistic, it's a direct threat and going out of their way to exact a petty revenge.

Lucky we can send them back without the EU being able to stop us. We could just blow up the channel tunnel, start the engines and float away to the equator.

 Da Boss wrote:
The Calais threat comes from some centre right French politicians. It's not Hollande threatening this.

And all they are suggesting is to move UK border controls to the UK, rather than doing the border checks in France as they are now.

But whatever, explaining this stuff to you guys is like pissing into the wind - you've already made up your minds.

Yes, you're right. It's only the French Minister of the Economy, Industry and Digital Affairs saying it.

What, so Gove or IDS never shoots their mouth off about anything?

*shrug*

We'll see if it gets confirmed by Hollande.

 Da Boss wrote:
What, so Gove or IDS never shoots their mouth off about anything?

*shrug*

We'll see if it gets confirmed by Hollande.

So you're back tracking nnow? First you said it was centre right politicians making empty threats, now you're admitting its a government minister.

 Da Boss wrote:
What, so Gove or IDS never shoots their mouth off about anything?

*shrug*

We'll see if it gets confirmed by Hollande.

What point are you trying to make? If Osbourne (the closest equivalent) made noises about sanctions against France, I think it'd be taken seriously. Emmanuel is in the position that has the power that can enact exactly the kind of thing he is threatening. Hardly the minor right wing troublemaker you make him out to be.

Hollande can confirm or deny the sabre rattling whenever, but considering he talked about consequences as well, I think it's fair to assume they both concur.

Well, nothing that has said so far convinces me that leaving the EU is anything other than a bad step.
If we do end up following the blinkered politics of Euroscepticism, I think I may have to move and apply for Scottish citizenship.

Ireland may be impacted adversely at first, but with luck, when Scotland cedes from the UK, and rejoins the EU, they maybe able to enjoy renewed and invigorated trading opportunities with one of the smallest members of OPEC.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
What, so Gove or IDS never shoots their mouth off about anything?

*shrug*

We'll see if it gets confirmed by Hollande.

So you're back tracking nnow? First you said it was centre right politicians making empty threats, now you're admitting its a government minister.

Feth off. He's a politician is he not? A centre right one, if I'm not mistaken. It's pandering to the local government in Calais.

The French President said that there would be "consequences " for us leaving the EU. He says he is not trying to scare us. But bad things can happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EU referendum: Hollande warns of UK exit 'consequences'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

Linky

 welshhoppo wrote:
The French President said that there would be "consequences " for us leaving the EU. He says he is not trying to scare us. But bad things can happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EU referendum: Hollande warns of UK exit 'consequences'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

Linky

You beat me to it. No doubt Hollande was egged on by Call Me Dave, but if the EU has to resort to blackmail to try and scare the British public into staying, then the quicker we leave this wretched organisation, the better.

Thousands of British soldiers died in two world wars to liberate France, and the French response to Britain exercising its democratic principals is threats and blackmail!!!

I'd better quit this thread until tomorrow before I get a lifetime ban from dakka.

What Macron said was unhelpful, but what Hollande said seemed mostly reasonable. It was not a threat, it was statement of fact, there would be consequences. Pretending that there would be not is stupid.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The French President said that there would be "consequences " for us leaving the EU. He says he is not trying to scare us. But bad things can happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EU referendum: Hollande warns of UK exit 'consequences'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

Linky

You beat me to it. No doubt Hollande was egged on by Call Me Dave, but if the EU has to resort to blackmail to try and scare the British public into staying, then the quicker we leave this wretched organisation, the better.

Thousands of British soldiers died in two world wars to liberate France, and the French response to Britain exercising its democratic principals is threats and blackmail!!!

I'd better quit this thread until tomorrow before I get a lifetime ban from dakka.

I dont think Cameron egged the French on in this. Cameron is not actually an idiot.
French threats will make people bloody minded and more likely to vote out than they will frighten people to vote In. There is not a legal mechanism for the French to detect illegal immigrants in their own country and informally usher them into the UK, but then EU legislation doesn't matter to the French.

 Da Boss wrote:
But whatever, explaining this stuff to you guys is like pissing into the wind - you've already made up your minds.

I think it is more an issue of there being zero factual information being put forward by either side. Anyone can see that there will be consequences whether we stay or leave the EU. Unfortunately there is so much hot air coming from both sides that it seems to have dried up any genuine dialogue and debate... as always seems to happen in politics.

You can say more or less whatever you want about staying or going; the fact is there is almost nothing solid to back up what you say, vs what anyone else says.

I say this as someone who is voting to stay in the EU (even though I think the political and democratic structure needs to be almost entirely torn down and rebuilt to be more open and accountable) and largely agrees with what you have said - your aggressiveness in this thread, while partially understandable, is not exactly a positive showing for team "stay".

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
But whatever, explaining this stuff to you guys is like pissing into the wind - you've already made up your minds.

I think it is more an issue of there being zero factual information being put forward by either side. Anyone can see that there will be consequences whether we stay or leave the EU. Unfortunately there is so much hot air coming from both sides that it seems to have dried up any genuine dialogue and debate... as always seems to happen in politics.

You can say more or less whatever you want about staying or going; the fact is there is almost nothing solid to back up what you say, vs what anyone else says.

I say this as someone who is voting to stay in the EU (even though I think the political and democratic structure needs to be almost entirely torn down and rebuilt to be more open and accountable) and largely agrees with what you have said - your aggressiveness in this thread, while partially understandable, is not exactly a positive showing for team "stay".

I'm not trying to convince anyone one way or another. It's Britain's vote.

But I'm damned if I'm not going to defend the EU against lies, myths and false statements.

I got my first warning in a long while from this thread though, no doubt for my reply to Shadow Captain. So I'd better take a break from it.

Curious:

What does the EU do that the G8, G20, UN, NATO, etc doesn't already do?

I saw something today about the French president(?) discussing consequences and border issues...as well as affecting an exclusive French/UK agreement.

Thanks for the education.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To me, it sounds like the French are trying to intimidate/scare the UK into staying.

I mean, if the agreement is exclusive to UK and France, then it shouldn't involve the EU or UK being in or out of the EU...it shojld solely be an agreement between those two countries.