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I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.
Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.
Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!
Mutalith does NOT have an invul this was specifically mentioned in the stream.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
agreed that the Shaman will probably cost around 100 points.
Mutalith is probably 150-175
Shaman is probably 100
Enlightened are probably 12-14 PPM (108-126 points)
They said during the stream the only two units in the thousand sons list that did not have a invul save were the cultist and predator the mutalith has a invul save.
I love how people like you are allowed to throw insults and tell people to get bent, and not receive any warnings. But people who try to defend themselves or get mad because they were insulted and reply in kind get warnings.
It's also hilarious that you claim this means you were correct yet the next 3 or 4 posts agree with the op.
What insults have I thrown at people? I've said this thread is stupid. There's a difference between saying a thread is stupid and calling someone stupid, FYI. I've made stupid threads and posts in the past, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm stupid. Same situation here. I genuinely think this thread is hot garbage, I don't think Thousand Son Sorcerer is a moron for it. Another FYI, you were implying the opposite when discussing the functionality of the Skyfire bows in 40K which is probably what got you the warning, and I'm sorry to hear that.
As for your "the next 3 or 4 posts agree with the op" comment, firstly, that's incredibly childish, but sure I'll bite. Secondly, I'm not sure what post you're reading but unless my eyes deceive me, that is inaccurate. The one immediately after mine agrees with me, the next two agree with Thousand Sons Sorcerer's point about the Tzaangor to Rubric ratio but one of them notes that the army used in the game could have easily been the inverse with 40 Rubrics and 10 Tzaangors. Most of the rest posts afterwards follow the same line of thinking; it's just the army list they chose to show off today, demoing the new stuff, they could have easily taken a Rubric-heavy list instead and it's possible they still would have won. They got a win over an army that some in here (including you) said would steamroll them easily. And, based on my points extrapolation, it looks very likely that Rubrics and Scarab Occult got needed points drops, but we know for a fact they got the most important change; access to new psychic powers. That alone makes both units far more worthwhile, as does the ability to teleport Rubrics around.
The entire purpose of me posting in this thread has been to try and point out that going full "doom and gloom" mode when we had no information about the codex was a pretty silly way to pass the time. Given the stuff that's already been confirmed for us, we've gotten a host of changes everyone was desperate for - Aspiring/Occult Sorcerers getting new powers, for one - and we still don't know everything about the book. Declaring "Thousand Sons are dead" when they literally have the best model representation and support they've ever had as well as their own unique codex was and has been proven to be stupid. That's just how it is
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Mutalith does NOT have an invul this was specifically mentioned in the stream.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
agreed that the Shaman will probably cost around 100 points.
Mutalith is probably 150-175
Shaman is probably 100
Enlightened are probably 12-14 PPM (108-126 points)
You'll have to excuse me as I'm going off what everyone else has been reporting seeing as I can't be bothered subscribing to Warhammer TV, I've been checking what numerous people who watched the stream have been saying so if there are any mistakes, that's weird and unfortunate and I apologize.
From everything else I've read, the Mutalith has an invulnerable save. More than a few people have stated that the Cultists and Predator were explicitly the only units to lack an invulnerable save. Ergo, my prediction of it being 150-200+ is probably still on point. Compared to something like a Toxicrene (which is in that range), this thing sounds like it will be a lot harder to kill thanks to the invulnerable save (and extra wounds), have weaker but probably still decent melee, and have a buff aura.
The Enlightened having 2 wounds was obviously a guess of mine and if I'm wrong, that does change things obviously. The reason I assumed they would have 2 Wounds each is that no-one else had commented on the matter, there is a big precedent in AoS (I'll get to that in a moment), they are the "elite" Tzaangor unit, they are large, etc. I'm still not sure if they'll necessarily be in the 12-14 PPM range as their ability sounds pretty darned nasty, but we'll see. As for the AoS precedent, while regular Tzaangors are light infantry in 40K as opposed to the elite infantry role they fill in AoS, Skyfires and Enlightened explicitly aren't regular Tzaangors (they are the strongest of their kind and have magical gifts from Tzeentch) and have double the wounds of regular Tzaangors. Also, we don't have a precedent of disk-riding non-character models in 40K, just the actual Screamers themselves which have 2 Wounds each. Fair play, it sounds like the Enlightened are yet more cheap options for us.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/19 23:45:26
I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.
Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.
Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!
Mutalith does NOT have an invul this was specifically mentioned in the stream.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
agreed that the Shaman will probably cost around 100 points.
Mutalith is probably 150-175
Shaman is probably 100
Enlightened are probably 12-14 PPM (108-126 points)
They said during the stream the only two units in the thousand sons list that did not have a invul save were the cultist and predator the mutalith has a invul save.
Your right I heard Mutalith instead of Cultist. should have gone to bed sooner.
Ahriman21 wrote: citation for enlightened being 1 wound a piece? I didn't notice that.
Re watch the stream at 1:56:00 when the stormbolter could be a hurricane bolter since 6 shots is firing at the Enlightened 6 shots 6 hits, 4 wounds (2s and 3s removed) S4 weapon, at least 1 save (6,4,3,3) 2 models removed. Hard to do with screen caps cause I would need like 6.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/20 01:03:05
Now that I have finished watching the Stream time to address this gak.
Caederes wrote: Poor old Thousand Sons Sorcerer had to bow out of this thread in shame for being proven so hilariously, utterly wrong Lesson learned; don't spout predictions as facts and don't be overwhelmingly negative with no evidence to back up your claims!
They've pretty much given us what many in here believed wouldn't happen, i.e. Aspiring Sorcerers and Scarab Occult Sorcerers gaining access to powers other than Smite which pretty much completely fixes them, not one but two ways to Deep Strike/teleport which in conjunction with Deep Striking Chaos Daemons will give Tzeentch players one of the meaner alpha strikes in the game, a legion trait that's actually pretty darned useful, etc.
Some oddities though that I'm really curious about now;
1) Magnus can't re-roll saves anymore, but presumably kept his re-roll 1s for to-hit rolls aura. Question; what does that mean for Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerers? Do they now give re-roll 1s to-hit like Magnus, or do they not provide any auras at all? EDIT: Sounds like Magnus didn't lose his aura but rather just can't re-roll saves himself. We'll see.
2) The wording of the Skyfire 6s to-hit rule is weird, if someone watched the game I'd appreciate some clarification on it. 6s to-hit bypass the to-wound roll and go straight to the Damage roll, does that mean they bypass saves or is that report just worded incorrectly? As they aren't mortal wounds, presumably they still allow saves but just give you easier wounds similar to how Warhammer Fantasy poison used to work.
3) Do you have to roll each turn for the Mutalith aura, or is it similar to some other abilities where once you've rolled you can keep the same aura until you want to re-roll it?
Other than that.....I'm happy as larry. I think people in here really need to think about the implications of Deep Striking Pink Horrors and a massive blob of Tzaangors (who can apparently go up to 40 models now?) in tandem, either simultaneously or one after the other. The Horrors will clear out infantry bubble wrap with ease provided you have a Herald supporting them, then the Tzaangors can surge forward with Warptime (which with the +6" range should be easy to get on them) and charge in. Buff them up with Weaver of Fates and other powers to taste and that's one hell of an alpha strike; less damage to bigger targets than Bloodletters, but they are much tougher to get rid of and their hitting power doesn't drop that much whereas Bloodletters tend to do all their damage in one round. Hell, teleport Rubric Marines with Warpflamers up, Warptime them forward and pop Veterans of the Long War for some absolute carnage!
1.) If they changed the wording to the same as exalted then Magnus would lose the ability to reroll 1s since hes not TS infantry
2.) Its basically auto wound on 6s to hit, no to wound roll strait to armor save.
3.) no indication of this in the video or the stream, all we know is 1 buff is re-roll charge, and they blow up.
Some tidbits as well based on some of the "predictions" we had in here;
Prediction: Tzaangors can't get +1 to-hit.
Reality: Tzaangors apparently get +1 to-hit in units of 20 or more, and some are saying they even go up to units of 40.
No one said this and it's also not true, nothing said in the stream nor any dice rolls reflect this. What I said was they wont give a +1 to hit aura for the Tzaangor Shaman because they wont tie it to something that can't be taken away easily, so I was right. Plus they already have a +1 to hit with Prescience.
Prediction: Aspiring/Scarab Occult Sorcerers won't get new powers.
Reality: They get access to at least the new Thousand Sons discipline.
Not sure who said they would not get new powers, I said if they did it would probably cause a point bump on the Sorcs, which we don't know the points cost yet.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will easily get steam-rolled in the game.
Reality: Thousand Sons won handily on objectives.
You should watch the stream then ask yourself if this is true. Eddie didn't win the game, Steve lost the game to dice rolls. It is even mentioned by the commentators in the stream
Prediction: Tzaangors will lack the Thousand Sons keyword.
Reality: They have it. Duh.
Pretty sure what was said is they shouldn't have it but too lazy to look cause I don't agree.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will either lose Dark Hereticus or keep it but not get a new discipline...
Reality: They have access to at least two disciplines, possibly three.
I figured at least 2 maybe 3 depending on how frisky they were feeling, and just gave us access to Tzeentch, HA list and a new TS list.
Caederes wrote: Prediction: Thousand Sons are dead.
Reality: Stupidest thread I've read in a while.
Declaring yourself right when you know nothing about the stream at all or what it actually revealed.
Caederes wrote: What insults have I thrown at people? I've said this thread is stupid. There's a difference between saying a thread is stupid and calling someone stupid, FYI. I've made stupid threads and posts in the past, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm stupid. Same situation here. I genuinely think this thread is hot garbage, I don't think Thousand Son Sorcerer is a moron for it. Another FYI, you were implying the opposite when discussing the functionality of the Skyfire bows in 40K which is probably what got you the warning, and I'm sorry to hear that.
Threads are driven by people, calling a thread stupid is calling everyone in the thread stupid, but everyone knows what you mean. At the very least the person that started it.
Caederes wrote: As for your "the next 3 or 4 posts agree with the op" comment, firstly, that's incredibly childish, but sure I'll bite. Secondly, I'm not sure what post you're reading but unless my eyes deceive me, that is inaccurate. The one immediately after mine agrees with me, the next two agree with Thousand Sons Sorcerer's point about the Tzaangor to Rubric ratio but one of them notes that the army used in the game could have easily been the inverse with 40 Rubrics and 10 Tzaangors. Most of the rest posts afterwards follow the same line of thinking; it's just the army list they chose to show off today, demoing the new stuff, they could have easily taken a Rubric-heavy list instead and it's possible they still would have won. They got a win over an army that some in here (including you) said would steamroll them easily. And, based on my points extrapolation, it looks very likely that Rubrics and Scarab Occult got needed points drops, but we know for a fact they got the most important change; access to new psychic powers. That alone makes both units far more worthwhile, as does the ability to teleport Rubrics around.
The entire purpose of me posting in this thread has been to try and point out that going full "doom and gloom" mode when we had no information about the codex was a pretty silly way to pass the time. Given the stuff that's already been confirmed for us, we've gotten a host of changes everyone was desperate for - Aspiring/Occult Sorcerers getting new powers, for one - and we still don't know everything about the book. Declaring "Thousand Sons are dead" when they literally have the best model representation and support they've ever had as well as their own unique codex was and has been proven to be stupid. That's just how it is
30 Tzzangors cost 280 points
40 Rubrics cost 814 points minimum
Bullet proof argument, Guess those enlightened are more expensive then we thought.
to the Doom and Gloom statement read Seneca.
Have you seen the game? unless Magnus and Tzaangors (NOT enlightened just plane jane Tzaangors) are new they didnt demo anything.
Again, your calling me stupid but just remember you said it was PROVEN to be false.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Mutalith does NOT have an invul this was specifically mentioned in the stream.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
agreed that the Shaman will probably cost around 100 points.
Mutalith is probably 150-175
Shaman is probably 100
Enlightened are probably 12-14 PPM (108-126 points)
You'll have to excuse me as I'm going off what everyone else has been reporting seeing as I can't be bothered subscribing to Warhammer TV, I've been checking what numerous people who watched the stream have been saying so if there are any mistakes, that's weird and unfortunate and I apologize.
From everything else I've read, the Mutalith has an invulnerable save. More than a few people have stated that the Cultists and Predator were explicitly the only units to lack an invulnerable save. Ergo, my prediction of it being 150-200+ is probably still on point. Compared to something like a Toxicrene (which is in that range), this thing sounds like it will be a lot harder to kill thanks to the invulnerable save (and extra wounds), have weaker but probably still decent melee, and have a buff aura.
The Enlightened having 2 wounds was obviously a guess of mine and if I'm wrong, that does change things obviously. The reason I assumed they would have 2 Wounds each is that no-one else had commented on the matter, there is a big precedent in AoS (I'll get to that in a moment), they are the "elite" Tzaangor unit, they are large, etc. I'm still not sure if they'll necessarily be in the 12-14 PPM range as their ability sounds pretty darned nasty, but we'll see. As for the AoS precedent, while regular Tzaangors are light infantry in 40K as opposed to the elite infantry role they fill in AoS, Skyfires and Enlightened explicitly aren't regular Tzaangors (they are the strongest of their kind and have magical gifts from Tzeentch) and have double the wounds of regular Tzaangors. Also, we don't have a precedent of disk-riding non-character models in 40K, just the actual Screamers themselves which have 2 Wounds each. Fair play, it sounds like the Enlightened are yet more cheap options for us.
The Mutalith does have an invul i heard Mutalith instead of cultist.
Ahriman21 wrote: citation for enlightened being 1 wound a piece? I didn't notice that.
Re watch the stream at 1:56:00 when the stormbolter could be a hurricane bolter since 6 shots is firing at the Enlightened 6 shots 6 hits, 4 wounds (2s and 3s removed) S4 weapon, at least 1 save (6,4,3,3) 2 models removed. Hard to do with screen caps cause I would need like 6.
Do you know which unit was doing the shooting? The spears/axes that the infantry guys carry shoot for 2 damage per shot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/20 01:11:07
Ahriman21 wrote: citation for enlightened being 1 wound a piece? I didn't notice that.
Re watch the stream at 1:56:00 when the stormbolter could be a hurricane bolter since 6 shots is firing at the Enlightened 6 shots 6 hits, 4 wounds (2s and 3s removed) S4 weapon, at least 1 save (6,4,3,3) 2 models removed. Hard to do with screen caps cause I would need like 6.
Do you know which unit was doing the shooting? The spears/axes that the infantry guys carry shoot for 2 damage per shot.
The only unit which was close enough to shoot them was locked in combat with cultists. Termies were in the LR but they cant shoot out, Lascannons arent wounding them on 4s.
BoomWolf wrote: Well, we can assume quite a bit of them are copypasta from CSM stratagems.
CSM stratagems that will likely be copied over:
Daemon Shell
Blasphemous Machines
Chaos Boon
Veterans of the Long War
The Great Sorcerer
Linebreaker Bombardment
Killshot
Daemonforge
Chaos Familiar
Flakk Missile
Fire Frenzy
Not 100% positive on all of those (we might not get Daemonforge) and there may be a couple that get ported over that aren't on this list (Tide of Traitors is a possibility but I think we'll get an alternative stratagem that lets us refresh our tzaangors somehow like DG did with their poxwalkers) but that leaves give-or-take 10 more stratagems specific to us, including the obvious "extra relics" stratagem. Plenty of room for some interesting stuff there.
BoomWolf wrote: Well, we can assume quite a bit of them are copypasta from CSM stratagems.
CSM stratagems that will likely be copied over:
Daemon Shell
Blasphemous Machines
Chaos Boon
Veterans of the Long War
The Great Sorcerer
Linebreaker Bombardment
Killshot
Daemonforge
Chaos Familiar
Flakk Missile
Fire Frenzy
Not 100% positive on all of those (we might not get Daemonforge) and there may be a couple that get ported over that aren't on this list (Tide of Traitors is a possibility but I think we'll get an alternative stratagem that lets us refresh our tzaangors somehow like DG did with their poxwalkers) but that leaves give-or-take 10 more stratagems specific to us, including the obvious "extra relics" stratagem. Plenty of room for some interesting stuff there.
Daemonforge? I have to agree with Ahriman that one we will most likely get lots of options to use it with. Flakk Missile though only usable with a unit with a certain upgrade.
Also, what are the chances we get some of the Tzeentch Daemon strats
Ahriman21 wrote: citation for enlightened being 1 wound a piece? I didn't notice that.
Re watch the stream at 1:56:00 when the stormbolter could be a hurricane bolter since 6 shots is firing at the Enlightened 6 shots 6 hits, 4 wounds (2s and 3s removed) S4 weapon, at least 1 save (6,4,3,3) 2 models removed. Hard to do with screen caps cause I would need like 6.
Upon further review I think he was shooting the Skyfires with a twinlinked heavy bolter (6 shots). Which means still 1 wound but T 5.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/20 16:00:00
Some tidbits as well based on some of the "predictions" we had in here;
Prediction: Tzaangors can't get +1 to-hit.
Reality: Tzaangors apparently get +1 to-hit in units of 20 or more, and some are saying they even go up to units of 40.
No one said this and it's also not true, nothing said in the stream nor any dice rolls reflect this. What I said was they wont give a +1 to hit aura for the Tzaangor Shaman because they wont tie it to something that can't be taken away easily, so I was right. Plus they already have a +1 to hit with Prescience.
Prediction: Aspiring/Scarab Occult Sorcerers won't get new powers.
Reality: They get access to at least the new Thousand Sons discipline.
Not sure who said they would not get new powers, I said if they did it would probably cause a point bump on the Sorcs, which we don't know the points cost yet.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will easily get steam-rolled in the game.
Reality: Thousand Sons won handily on objectives.
You should watch the stream then ask yourself if this is true. Eddie didn't win the game, Steve lost the game to dice rolls. It is even mentioned by the commentators in the stream
Prediction: Tzaangors will lack the Thousand Sons keyword.
Reality: They have it. Duh.
Pretty sure what was said is they shouldn't have it but too lazy to look cause I don't agree.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will either lose Dark Hereticus or keep it but not get a new discipline...
Reality: They have access to at least two disciplines, possibly three.
I figured at least 2 maybe 3 depending on how frisky they were feeling, and just gave us access to Tzeentch, HA list and a new TS list.
Caederes wrote: Prediction: Thousand Sons are dead.
Reality: Stupidest thread I've read in a while.
Declaring yourself right when you know nothing about the stream at all or what it actually revealed.
1) I’m speculating that maybe they removed re-roll 1s as our faction’s main aura to try and give us something else, as re-roll 1s for invulnerable saves is generally either a moot point (4+ and 5+) or obnoxious (3+). It was really only good for Ahriman and Magnus. It’s entirely possible they just didn’t want Magnus to have it and kept the aura for Ahriman and Exalteds, which would be disappointing. I’m well aware the Exalted buff only affects Infantry, trust me.
2) Thank you for the clarification. People who have been talking about it haven’t been clear about it and I was led to believe it bypassed saves.
3) This one is more speculation. If it’s random table functions similarly to the one Slaan from Age of Sigmar do, that would be very nice. If not, hopefully the rest of the buffs are decent too.
a) First up, these were general predictions from people in this thread, not specifically you. My original post stated this, I edited it out because I felt it unnecessary to point out.
b) No. You were stating that Tzaangors would not get any +1 to-hit aura because, in your own words, “your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 Ap-1 attacks and hits on 2”. You were claiming Tzaangors would not get the +1 to-hit because they would be too efficient with it, you didn’t mention anything about the Shaman being too easily taken away or anything of the sort. Your post history is right there buddy; “the Shaman will not add a +1 there is no way they are going to allow a mob of 30 guys that get 61 attacks to hit on 2s and reroll 1s”. Ergo, you did indeed say it and don’t try to backtrack out of it. As far as the +1 to-hit goes, the person that posted the info dump from the stream the other day mentioned it. The original version of my post specified that a lot of this is up for debate as WHTV streams aren’t always the best source of information as they tend to mess their rules up. So far, I’ve had zero reason not to trust that person.
c) I might have mistaken someone’s else’s words to mean something different. Doesn’t really matter, seeing as keeping both Dark Hereticus and getting at least one new discipline is easily the best outcome we could have had. Besides, I’m guessing a points drop – though likely minimal – is coming for Rubrics.
d) Are you serious? A whole bunch of people posting here and in the Thousand Sons thread said it wouldn’t end well for the Sons and they would get steam-rolled. Bad dice or not, they still pulled out a victory and showcased how effective the new stratagem and relic in particular can be for us. How is that not a good thing? Also, you don’t find it the least bit amusing that the narrative changes from “we’re gonna get smashed” to “bad dice won us the game”?
e) Nope. Someone in here outright predicted Tzaangors would lose the Thousand Sons keyword…to which everyone promptly roasted them for it. Page 10.
f) Again, this one wasn’t necessarily aimed at you unless I’m misremembering. This thread is a tide of junk so I’ve been doing my best to put it out of my mind, so I too can’t be bothered looking this up.
How do I “know nothing about the stream at all or what it actually revealed” when I have literally read every single bit of information posted about it by people that watched it both here and on other forums? Just because I’m getting the information second-hand doesn’t mean I’m wrong about it. You’ve messed up twice by misreporting that Mutaliths lack an invulnerable save and that it was hurricane bolters wounding the Skyfires, so it’s not like you are free from mistakes about the thing you actually watched in contrast to me who didn’t watch it. So far, the people I've been following haven't made any confirmed mistakes that I know of. I personally made the overzealous prediction that Enlightened would have at least 2 Wounds each, and it looks like I'm wrong. Fair play, but that was a prediction I made, not something someone reported. I'm extremely surprised that they have 1 Wound each, of course, which also brings my point pricing analysis into question. We'll see how that fares.
Also, you know for damned sure I’m right about this thread being stupid, to the point that people elsewhere on the forum are now starting to label Thousand Sons players as whiners. You made the statement and proceeded to double down on it before we had any evidence of the rules content of the codex and made blind assumptions that Tzaangor-heavy would be the main/only way to build the army. As much as the game revolved more around the Tzaangor units, that doesn’t necessarily signify that the Thousand Sons player would have fared worse if he had an alternate composition based around Rubric Marines. That’s the point we have been making; fleshing out the number of Tzaangor units from being solitary to numerous gives us new options, options which you do not have to use if you do not want to. Capiche?
With that aside, very nice catch on the stratagems. Having more than the Death Guard is extremely surprising to me, though I'm guessing we get more generic Chaos Space Marine stratagems than they do. Am I wrong in seeing that we have 7 more than the Death Guard? If so, that's deliciously ironic The more stratagems, the better, though the big one from where I'm standing that we share with Chaos Space Marines is still Veterans of the Long War. That stratagem is bonkers good.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/20 22:24:15
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/20 22:33:09
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
Was it wrong? Forget how many models, how many units of Tzaangors vs Rubrics?
I covered this in an earlier post, but I guess it bears repeating.
One game where new units are being tested =/= the reality of the codex. New Tzaangor units added to codex, WHTV shows off the new units. Logic. They could've easily gone Rubric heavy, there's nothing stopping people from doing that, as many in this thread echoed a few pages back.
Caederes wrote: I covered this in an earlier post, but I guess it bears repeating.
One game where new units are being tested =/= the reality of the codex. New Tzaangor units added to codex, WHTV shows off the new units. Logic. They could've easily gone Rubric heavy, there's nothing stopping people from doing that, as many in this thread echoed a few pages back.
Try again.
You try and make a point of it:
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....
This thread is like super dense black hole of pure whine. The immense pull of unrelenting negativity can easily pull you in, but beware: There is nothing here but darkness and endless complaining.
pismakron wrote: This thread is like super dense black hole of pure whine. The immense pull of unrelenting negativity can easily pull you in, but beware: There is nothing here but darkness and endless complaining.
While funny, the irony of your post does not go unnoticed.
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
Was it wrong? Forget how many models, how many units of Tzaangors vs Rubrics?
About 6 units of Thousand Sons marines (Magnus and the Demon Prince, who are "ascended", Ahriman is a Thousand Sons Marine, Occult Terminators, Rubric Marines, The predator is most likely piloted by a marine), 3 Tzaangor units (Shaman, Enlightened, Tzaangors), 1 unit of cultists (just humans), 1 mutalith (Idkwtf)
Now, if you mean specifically rubric, just one unit. Considering how a Rubric is a type of thousand son marine though, its not fair comparing a single type against an entire set (Tzaangors).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/20 23:50:01
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
Was it wrong? Forget how many models, how many units of Tzaangors vs Rubrics?
About 6 units of Thousand Sons marines (Magnus and the Demon Prince, who are "ascended", Ahriman is a Thousand Sons Marine, Occult Terminators, Rubric Marines, The predator is most likely piloted by a marine), 3 Tzaangor units (Shaman, Enlightened, Tzaangors), 1 unit of cultists (just humans), 1 mutalith (Idkwtf)
Now, if you mean specifically rubric, just one unit. Considering how a Rubric is a type of thousand son marine though, its not fair comparing a single type against an entire set (Tzaangors).
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
Was it wrong? Forget how many models, how many units of Tzaangors vs Rubrics?
About 6 units of Thousand Sons marines (Magnus and the Demon Prince, who are "ascended", Ahriman is a Thousand Sons Marine, Occult Terminators, Rubric Marines, The predator is most likely piloted by a marine), 3 Tzaangor units (Shaman, Enlightened, Tzaangors), 1 unit of cultists (just humans), 1 mutalith (Idkwtf)
Now, if you mean specifically rubric, just one unit. Considering how a Rubric is a type of thousand son marine though, its not fair comparing a single type against an entire set (Tzaangors).
Now you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
Does that have anything to do with the fact that CthulusSpy proved you wrong?
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
Was it wrong? Forget how many models, how many units of Tzaangors vs Rubrics?
About 6 units of Thousand Sons marines (Magnus and the Demon Prince, who are "ascended", Ahriman is a Thousand Sons Marine, Occult Terminators, Rubric Marines, The predator is most likely piloted by a marine), 3 Tzaangor units (Shaman, Enlightened, Tzaangors), 1 unit of cultists (just humans), 1 mutalith (Idkwtf)
Now, if you mean specifically rubric, just one unit. Considering how a Rubric is a type of thousand son marine though, its not fair comparing a single type against an entire set (Tzaangors).
Now you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
Does that have anything to do with the fact that CthulusSpy proved you wrong?
Proved wrong how? Please tell me. Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3. And not getting any new thousand sons marines units. In the game, there were 1 Rubric squad, 1 SoT. Yet tons of Tzaangors. Yes, it's a show case, but see the first half of this statement.
Caederes wrote: 1) I’m speculating that maybe they removed re-roll 1s as our faction’s main aura to try and give us something else, as re-roll 1s for invulnerable saves is generally either a moot point (4+ and 5+) or obnoxious (3+). It was really only good for Ahriman and Magnus. It’s entirely possible they just didn’t want Magnus to have it and kept the aura for Ahriman and Exalteds, which would be disappointing. I’m well aware the Exalted buff only affects Infantry, trust me.
2) Thank you for the clarification. People who have been talking about it haven’t been clear about it and I was led to believe it bypassed saves.
3) This one is more speculation. If it’s random table functions similarly to the one Slaan from Age of Sigmar do, that would be very nice. If not, hopefully the rest of the buffs are decent too.
a) First up, these were general predictions from people in this thread, not specifically you. My original post stated this, I edited it out because I felt it unnecessary to point out.
b) No. You were stating that Tzaangors would not get any +1 to-hit aura because, in your own words, “your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 Ap-1 attacks and hits on 2”. You were claiming Tzaangors would not get the +1 to-hit because they would be too efficient with it, you didn’t mention anything about the Shaman being too easily taken away or anything of the sort. Your post history is right there buddy; “the Shaman will not add a +1 there is no way they are going to allow a mob of 30 guys that get 61 attacks to hit on 2s and reroll 1s”. Ergo, you did indeed say it and don’t try to backtrack out of it. As far as the +1 to-hit goes, the person that posted the info dump from the stream the other day mentioned it. The original version of my post specified that a lot of this is up for debate as WHTV streams aren’t always the best source of information as they tend to mess their rules up. So far, I’ve had zero reason not to trust that person.
c) I might have mistaken someone’s else’s words to mean something different. Doesn’t really matter, seeing as keeping both Dark Hereticus and getting at least one new discipline is easily the best outcome we could have had. Besides, I’m guessing a points drop – though likely minimal – is coming for Rubrics.
d) Are you serious? A whole bunch of people posting here and in the Thousand Sons thread said it wouldn’t end well for the Sons and they would get steam-rolled. Bad dice or not, they still pulled out a victory and showcased how effective the new stratagem and relic in particular can be for us. How is that not a good thing? Also, you don’t find it the least bit amusing that the narrative changes from “we’re gonna get smashed” to “bad dice won us the game”?
e) Nope. Someone in here outright predicted Tzaangors would lose the Thousand Sons keyword…to which everyone promptly roasted them for it. Page 10.
f) Again, this one wasn’t necessarily aimed at you unless I’m misremembering. This thread is a tide of junk so I’ve been doing my best to put it out of my mind, so I too can’t be bothered looking this up.
How do I “know nothing about the stream at all or what it actually revealed” when I have literally read every single bit of information posted about it by people that watched it both here and on other forums? Just because I’m getting the information second-hand doesn’t mean I’m wrong about it. You’ve messed up twice by misreporting that Mutaliths lack an invulnerable save and that it was hurricane bolters wounding the Skyfires, so it’s not like you are free from mistakes about the thing you actually watched in contrast to me who didn’t watch it. So far, the people I've been following haven't made any confirmed mistakes that I know of. I personally made the overzealous prediction that Enlightened would have at least 2 Wounds each, and it looks like I'm wrong. Fair play, but that was a prediction I made, not something someone reported. I'm extremely surprised that they have 1 Wound each, of course, which also brings my point pricing analysis into question. We'll see how that fares.
Also, you know for damned sure I’m right about this thread being stupid, to the point that people elsewhere on the forum are now starting to label Thousand Sons players as whiners. You made the statement and proceeded to double down on it before we had any evidence of the rules content of the codex and made blind assumptions that Tzaangor-heavy would be the main/only way to build the army. As much as the game revolved more around the Tzaangor units, that doesn’t necessarily signify that the Thousand Sons player would have fared worse if he had an alternate composition based around Rubric Marines. That’s the point we have been making; fleshing out the number of Tzaangor units from being solitary to numerous gives us new options, options which you do not have to use if you do not want to. Capiche?
With that aside, very nice catch on the stratagems. Having more than the Death Guard is extremely surprising to me, though I'm guessing we get more generic Chaos Space Marine stratagems than they do. Am I wrong in seeing that we have 7 more than the Death Guard? If so, that's deliciously ironic The more stratagems, the better, though the big one from where I'm standing that we share with Chaos Space Marines is still Veterans of the Long War. That stratagem is bonkers good.
This is what I said fully about the Shaman, next time try searching for everything and not just what makes you right.
the_scotsman wrote:....which is why it would be not at all as ridiculous as you claim for a buffing character to grant them 2+ to hit. Completely unsupported, Tzaangors are essentially worthless, the only reason they're quite useful right now is because they have access to pretty good defensive buffs through the ahriman/exalted reroll buff plus the psychic power that gives them a 4++.
They're really quite solid if you take a single unit of 30 in the army with the idea that you're going to give them that buff and in an emergency keep them from running with the Insane Bravery stratagem...but that's not using them as pure "fodder" - the whole point of them is that they perform a similar task to cultists but actually do kill things in melee quite effectively.
You have to look at effects as a whole, you give them a +1 with an aura and you free up a spell not to mention basically can get multiple instances of what is supposed to be limited. On top of that your going you end up with multiple squads being able to hit 97% of the time with 2 auras. 2 30 man squads will be able to kill 60+ Guard in a single turn, if you play your cards right you can snipe the Commisars with spells and Blam your talking upwards of 90 Guardsman a turn. Even SM will lose 400 points per turn, assuming a special in 1 of the 6 squads you will kill in a turn. But that's gotta cost like 8-9 hundred points nope might break 650 wont be above 700.
The're not fodder and never have been. They are 7 ppm they are almost double guardsman on their own. Not including HQs to buff them once you do that Guardsman will go up to 6 ppm Tzaangors on the other hand go up to 9 ppm if you include 1 Exalted for 60 Tzaangors. They have never been fodder.
If i had to venture a guess on the Aura i would say some sort of LD buff and reroll 1s to wound in CC. He will basically be a cross between an Exalted champion and a Dark Apostle.
Caederes wrote: How do I “know nothing about the stream at all or what it actually revealed” when I have literally read every single bit of information posted about it by people that watched it both here and on other forums?
Here is a lesson in logic.
1.) Everything is what it is (a=a)
2.) Everything is not what it isn't (a=/=b)
3.) Everything is never both nor neither (a=/= ~a and ~b)
Now you have READ things about the stream, that's great. Know, in this instance, means to have knowledge of in this sense. Knowledge means you have a justified, true, belief, (there are some problems there, but we wont get into that). You have no knowledge of the stream you have rumors about the stream, you don't know what happened on the stream you know what you have READ about the stream. You don't know that in the Second turn when Eddie should have lost his entire squad of Tzaangors he lost only 17 (out of 30), you don't know those 17 Tzaangors lasted until the end of game. You don't know that the Rubrics did all of feth the entire stream, that the SOT lasted exactly 2 rounds of combat against them killing only 2 models, you don't know that Magnus died in the second turn because He killed Valorium (or whatever the Characters name is for the Custodes) and he got his free I'm dying attack and killed Magnus with it. you don't know that the Pred sat in the back and did feth all the entire game.
After all that do you know what you know about the stream? Still nothing you know what someone wrote about the stream.
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
"Now we're getting 3 new units with the Codex 2 are Gor units one HQ and one fast attack and we're getting a giant spawn. Don't get me wrong these things fill slots which need to be filled. The problem comes from the underlying concepts of these units."
-Quote from Thousand Sons Sorcerer
Agian, you pulled only the thing that made you right. You aren't looking to find what is true your looking to find what makes you right.
When people said "11 TS and 40 Tzaangors but you could do the opposite", no you can't Rubrics cost almost 3x Tzaangors with NO upgrades, but you parroted it because it made you right, that requires zero thought.
You even said I was right once you just don't realize it. When you mentioned bringing Horrors or Tzzangors, and dropping them infront of the enemy army, then mentioned dropping a unit of Rubrics.
Now since you know so much about the stream and all, and how I am so wrong. Answer me this, Would Eddie have been better off if he had dropped the SOT squad and the cultist squad and brought 4 10 man units of Tzaangors instead?
Trajan his name is Trajan
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/21 03:25:04
Lesson learned; don't spout predictions as facts and don't be overwhelmingly negative with no evidence to back up your claims!
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
~4100
~1660
