How to make terminators worthwhile?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bharring wrote:
But can't any given Vet deploy as either a VV or Sternie depending on which squad he's currently in? Bob the Vet Marine could be a Sternie today, a VV tomorrow, and a Termie on Sunday (the last one only if he has the Crux Terminatus)?

Certain members are going to have more of an aptitude for that task at hand. These guys aren't just Company Vets. They're THE top of the line for that task. Then anyone better than that gets the Terminator suits, which have advanced systems.

**Bharring**

Some chapters might have dedicated Vets who are VV or Sternies, sure. Homebrews can do whatever. But in most chapters, aren't you required to be an all-around badass to be a Vet? Not just a good shot or good with a sword?

Most chapters can deploy some squads as either Termies or Vets. Why would they lose skill when they deploy as Vets?

I'm not sure I've seen any fluff that puts Termie armor targetting systems on a whole level above Power Armor. Otherwise, wouldn't a Termie-armored Captain have better BS than a PA Captain?

**fraser1191**

Bharring wrote:
But can't any given Vet deploy as either a VV or Sternie depending on which squad he's currently in? Bob the Vet Marine could be a Sternie today, a VV tomorrow, and a Termie on Sunday (the last one only if he has the Crux Terminatus)?

But I don't wanna pay points for a VV to have 2 lightning claws and a 2+ BS

**Bharring**

(As for balance, would anyone really *care* that VV had BS2+, or Sternies had WS2+? This should be driven almost entirely by fluff, as it has almost no balance impact.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fraser - don't you "pay points" for a CCW Termie as is? And the thought is to be giving it a 2+BS despite not using it?

Besides, Tac Termies are the only unit here (Tac Termies, CCW Termies, VV, Sternies) that would reasonably use both skills. I'm sure the others should each pay nearly 0ppm for the 2+ skill they don't use.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bharring wrote:
(As for balance, would anyone really *care* that VV had BS2+, or Sternies had WS2+? This should be driven almost entirely by fluff, as it has almost no balance impact.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fraser - don't you "pay points" for a CCW Termie as is? And the thought is to be giving it a 2+BS despite not using it?

Besides, Tac Termies are the only unit here (Tac Termies, CCW Termies, VV, Sternies) that would reasonably use both skills. I'm sure the others should each pay nearly 0ppm for the 2+ skill they don't use.

Most people are in favor of removing the distinct Tactical and Assault entries because it's stupid.

**fraser1191**

BS 2+ storm bolters are more worthwhile than a BS 2+ bolt pistol on a VV when I buy them with melee in mind (2x LC, sure I can buy them plasma pistols but a Sternguard can buy a full rifle)

Also yeah "normal" and assault termies should be blended together sorta like tartaros and cataphract termies, more or less

**Djangomatic82**

Ice_can wrote:
Spectral Ceramite wrote:
Doesn't terminator armour make them more survivable (is the entire point). It's not gunna increase your skill, just your survivability and maybe strength etc (Cause was for close quarters, etc a few guys taking a butt tonne of damage but surviving and pushing through with some combat ability).

Fluff aside, the change has to be to the armour not any weapons etc (So can carry across all factions SM and alt chapters, DW, GK, Inquisition and Chaos. You can't give them special storm bolters or anything cause conflicts to much with DW ammo etc).

Terminator armour atm gives them +1 W, 2+ arm, 5+invul and DS, to any SM chapter available (units/characters), characters (inquis) and Chaos (units/characters). I think an increase to WS/BS is totally against what they are suppose to be and makes it almost redundant for characters (and how many people take Terminator characters atm, unless playing fluffy or GK's etc. I can't comment to much on Chaos I don't play them in 40k).

If looking at fluff, maybe no passive negative to hit from weapons (like T.hammer/p.fist etc). But that doesn't make them more survivable (Their other big role). The upgrade has to make them points efficient and make them to their role/persona/character (I think that is a survivable aspect with some combat prowess, but survivable is the key, to hold out and still do damage).

Must be déjà vu I think have read this before in the last 19 pages about WS/BS etc.

EDIT:
I just started to play AoS and I think how they have their system (-2 or -3 AP is rare or is super good) is how 40k should model (though is combat over shooting). Maybe they will go towards that? This mech bay thing that Orks are getting sound so much like the Heardstone/Idoneth Ship/ Sylvannia woods etc maybe they are going towards that model eventually.

Terminator armour is supposed to be extremely difficult to produce hence limited in number and hence only issued to the best of the veterans of a chapter etc right now one of the problems with terminators(and vanguard and sternguard) is stat wise they are no better than tactical marines, they lack a meaningful difference from non vet marines.

Giving them boosted stats allows them to be more impacting on the game and being blits by MW, mass gunfired to death etc becomes less of an issue if you can use them to force your opponents to have to deal with them or pay a meaningful price. Right now they are slow and do little damage, they are irrelevant bar drops onto an objective but thats too many points just to clear 1 objective and hold it.

They either need to be a shock unit which hits hard and doesn't go down easy or they go down in points appropriately.
My issue with the second is at sone point really it's no longer 40k it's playing epic in 28mm scale.

I'll just restate my previous comment ,because I really do think that upping terminators to T6 would help them against all of the weapons everyone in this thread keeps naming as being too effective against them.
-T6 means plasma, whether overcharged or not is only wounding on 3's instead of 2's. Dissintegrators and heavy bolters wound on 5's instead of 3's. It even helps against massed FRF,SRF lasgun barrages as only 6 will wound, though volume is still going to down them as it currently does.
Regarding boosting their offensive power, I have come to the same position as others that reducing their points cost is the best way to make them more killey. Reducing their cost to 16ppm + wargear, would mean that you could field a 5man squad with a cyclone missile launcher for the same 192 points that right now only get you a bare bones squad.

**NurglesR0T**

I've seen the idea floated around a bit before, but giving them an ability to reduce all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1 would help against the plethora of D2 weapons that they are most susceptible towards.

In fact, give all marines this rule! What's it called in Kill Team? Transhuman Physiology?

**mchammadad**

NurglesR0T wrote:
I've seen the idea floated around a bit before, but giving them an ability to reduce all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1 would help against the plethora of D2 weapons that they are most susceptible towards.

In fact, give all marines this rule! What's it called in Kill Team? Transhuman Physiology?

Transhuman physiology makes them ignore the first flesh wound in regards to it's negative modifiers in kill team, apart from the injury roll

**vict0988**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You didn't actually show how it makes characters less important. So I have no idea what you want to prove.

Also Terminator Characters do get use, albeit in Special Character form (Chaos gets use from it, Calgar, , Draigo, etc), and then the occasional generic ones get used. That proves a problem with the generic entry than anything. Marine characters are heavily coated compared to other armies and you know that, all on top of the codex being priced like it'll have at minimum one of the rerolls available when we know that's not the case.

Never said it did. I said they are equally important.

Never heard of or seen a generic Termi char or Calgar, seen one Abbadon in a small local tournament, played one game against a list with Belial, one against Typhus, Draigo is the only one that is really popular, GK don't really get many options beyond Termi chars, the popularity of Dreadknight GMs proves my point,

NurglesR0T wrote:
I've seen the idea floated around a bit before, but giving them an ability to reduce all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1 would help against the plethora of D2 weapons that they are most susceptible towards.

In fact, give all marines this rule! What's it called in Kill Team? Transhuman Physiology?

Why not give them M8 while you are at it? Big legs = bi steps no? You know Marine can probably shut he pain of y no also fel no pan klo gah bib bub krrrrr.

**Ice_can**

Djangomatic82 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Spectral Ceramite wrote:
Doesn't terminator armour make them more survivable (is the entire point). It's not gunna increase your skill, just your survivability and maybe strength etc (Cause was for close quarters, etc a few guys taking a butt tonne of damage but surviving and pushing through with some combat ability).

Fluff aside, the change has to be to the armour not any weapons etc (So can carry across all factions SM and alt chapters, DW, GK, Inquisition and Chaos. You can't give them special storm bolters or anything cause conflicts to much with DW ammo etc).

Terminator armour atm gives them +1 W, 2+ arm, 5+invul and DS, to any SM chapter available (units/characters), characters (inquis) and Chaos (units/characters). I think an increase to WS/BS is totally against what they are suppose to be and makes it almost redundant for characters (and how many people take Terminator characters atm, unless playing fluffy or GK's etc. I can't comment to much on Chaos I don't play them in 40k).

If looking at fluff, maybe no passive negative to hit from weapons (like T.hammer/p.fist etc). But that doesn't make them more survivable (Their other big role). The upgrade has to make them points efficient and make them to their role/persona/character (I think that is a survivable aspect with some combat prowess, but survivable is the key, to hold out and still do damage).

Must be déjà vu I think have read this before in the last 19 pages about WS/BS etc.

EDIT:
I just started to play AoS and I think how they have their system (-2 or -3 AP is rare or is super good) is how 40k should model (though is combat over shooting). Maybe they will go towards that? This mech bay thing that Orks are getting sound so much like the Heardstone/Idoneth Ship/ Sylvannia woods etc maybe they are going towards that model eventually.

Terminator armour is supposed to be extremely difficult to produce hence limited in number and hence only issued to the best of the veterans of a chapter etc right now one of the problems with terminators(and vanguard and sternguard) is stat wise they are no better than tactical marines, they lack a meaningful difference from non vet marines.

Giving them boosted stats allows them to be more impacting on the game and being blits by MW, mass gunfired to death etc becomes less of an issue if you can use them to force your opponents to have to deal with them or pay a meaningful price. Right now they are slow and do little damage, they are irrelevant bar drops onto an objective but thats too many points just to clear 1 objective and hold it.

They either need to be a shock unit which hits hard and doesn't go down easy or they go down in points appropriately.
My issue with the second is at sone point really it's no longer 40k it's playing epic in 28mm scale.

I'll just restate my previous comment ,because I really do think that upping terminators to T6 would help them against all of the weapons everyone in this thread keeps naming as being too effective against them.
-T6 means plasma, whether overcharged or not is only wounding on 3's instead of 2's. Dissintegrators and heavy bolters wound on 5's instead of 3's. It even helps against massed FRF,SRF lasgun barrages as only 6 will wound, though volume is still going to down them as it currently does.
Regarding boosting their offensive power, I have come to the same position as others that reducing their points cost is the best way to make them more killey. Reducing their cost to 16ppm + wargear, would mean that you could field a 5man squad with a cyclone missile launcher for the same 192 points that right now only get you a bare bones squad.

T6 makes thek tougher than Custodes and as tough as a custodes biker. I can't see GW allowing them to overlap so heavily.
The other way you stop plasma being so insanely better than anything else is just make it S6 S7 overcharged.
I do suspect that it is a broken as it is because hellblasters as primaris marines primary heavy shooting from infantry.
Stupid primaris breaking the game.

**Bharring**

-Termies are weak. 2W doesn't mean enough because of all the D2 weapons out there.
-Primaris are weak. 2W... as above.
-Bikes are weak. 2W... as above.

Mayhaps the problem with the plethera of D2 weapons is the D2, not the 2W models?

**Galef**

Bharring wrote:
-Termies are weak. 2W doesn't mean enough because of all the D2 weapons out there.
-Primaris are weak. 2W... as above.
-Bikes are weak. 2W... as above.

Mayhaps the problem with the plethera of D2 weapons is the D2, not the 2W models?

Yeah, that's why I really REALLY want all MEQs and TEQ to just get +1W. Some units would clearly need to be 2-3ppm more, like Tacticals potentially. Although I'd keep Primaris at 2W, but give then T5 instead.
Overally you would get less models in an army (so things like WS/BS2+ on Termies, VV and SG would be even more needed) but the army would FEEL like you're playing "tough as nails" Marines.
D2 weapons at this point would be fine in their current multitude. Termies and Bike wouldn't get outright splatted by them, but Marines and Primaris still would

Another option is to play the Toughness game. With the change to the S vs T chart in 8E, increases in T are less dramatic. TEQs could be T5 (DG being T6) and Bikes also T6
For Termies, that would make a slight different vs Overcharged Plasma

-

**Spectral Ceramite**

Galef wrote:
Bharring wrote:
-Termies are weak. 2W doesn't mean enough because of all the D2 weapons out there.
-Primaris are weak. 2W... as above.
-Bikes are weak. 2W... as above.

Mayhaps the problem with the plethera of D2 weapons is the D2, not the 2W models?
Yeah, that's why I really REALLY want all MEQs and TEQ to just get +1W. Some units would clearly need to be 2-3ppm more, like Tacticals potentially. Although I'd keep Primaris at 2W, but give then T5 instead.
Overally you would get less models in an army (so things like WS/BS2+ on Termies, VV and SG would be even more needed) but the army would FEEL like you're playing "tough as nails" Marines.
D2 weapons at this point would be fine in their current multitude. Termies and Bike wouldn't get outright splatted by them, but Marines and Primaris still would

Another option is to play the Toughness game. With the change to the S vs T chart in 8E, increases in T are less dramatic. TEQs could be T5 (DG being T6) and Bikes also T6
For Termies, that would make a slight different vs Overcharged Plasma

-

DBZ complex/problem is all that gives

**Slayer-Fan123**

Galef wrote:
Bharring wrote:
-Termies are weak. 2W doesn't mean enough because of all the D2 weapons out there.
-Primaris are weak. 2W... as above.
-Bikes are weak. 2W... as above.

Mayhaps the problem with the plethera of D2 weapons is the D2, not the 2W models?
Yeah, that's why I really REALLY want all MEQs and TEQ to just get +1W. Some units would clearly need to be 2-3ppm more, like Tacticals potentially. Although I'd keep Primaris at 2W, but give then T5 instead.
Overally you would get less models in an army (so things like WS/BS2+ on Termies, VV and SG would be even more needed) but the army would FEEL like you're playing "tough as nails" Marines.
D2 weapons at this point would be fine in their current multitude. Termies and Bike wouldn't get outright splatted by them, but Marines and Primaris still would

Another option is to play the Toughness game. With the change to the S vs T chart in 8E, increases in T are less dramatic. TEQs could be T5 (DG being T6) and Bikes also T6
For Termies, that would make a slight different vs Overcharged Plasma

-

I do agree GW hasn't taken advantage of the new sounding chart. At all. They kept all the S/T stats the same and only changed wounds here and there.

**Galef**

Well, Nurglings being T2 is certainly some form of exploration of the new to-wound system, but yeah, they can really go a bit further by making things that USED to be T4, but supposedly tougher than Marines and make them....well TOUGHER than Marines

-

**Slayer-Fan123**

Galef wrote:
Well, Nurglings being T2 is certainly some form of exploration of the new to-wound system, but yeah, they can really go a bit further by making things that USED to be T4, but supposedly tougher than Marines and make them....well TOUGHER than Marines

-

Keeping a lot of the weapons the same Strength doesn't help either. I mean yeah it's cool Lascannons only wound my Rhinos on a 3+, but they're wounding Plague Marines at the same rate.

**Kcalehc**

Galef wrote:
Well, Nurglings being T2 is certainly some form of exploration of the new to-wound system, but yeah, they can really go a bit further by making things that USED to be T4, but supposedly tougher than Marines and make them....well TOUGHER than Marines

-

But a Terminator Marine, is still just a Marine. A somewhat more skilled and experienced one for sure, but the guy inside the armor is still a Space Marine. Its the armor that makes the difference - and while the abstraction in the rules can go either way, I think it'd makes more sense for it to be the armor that makes a Terminator tougher, not just the marine inside being tougher - otherwise why bother with more expensive armor?

The additional durability they need should somehow be reflected in that, somehow. A 1+ save, maybe allowing them to use the 5++ invulnerable as well as the armor save, -1W on hits, something to show that the armor is making them harder to kill.

On a related note, personally I've always felt that a storm bolter should be a bit more than essentially '2 bolters strapped together' and should be more powerful against some targets than others. E.g. allow the Storm bolter to have -1AP against INFANTRY targets only.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I dunno. This is the only edition I've played where I would actively take a Storm Bolter. This is the best it's been since 4th edition to me.

**Zelse**

Kcalehc wrote:
Galef wrote:
Well, Nurglings being T2 is certainly some form of exploration of the new to-wound system, but yeah, they can really go a bit further by making things that USED to be T4, but supposedly tougher than Marines and make them....well TOUGHER than Marines

-

But a Terminator Marine, is still just a Marine. A somewhat more skilled and experienced one for sure, but the guy inside the armor is still a Space Marine. Its the armor that makes the difference - and while the abstraction in the rules can go either way, I think it'd makes more sense for it to be the armor that makes a Terminator tougher, not just the marine inside being tougher - otherwise why bother with more expensive armor?

The additional durability they need should somehow be reflected in that, somehow. A 1+ save, maybe allowing them to use the 5++ invulnerable as well as the armor save, -1W on hits, something to show that the armor is making them harder to kill.

On a related note, personally I've always felt that a storm bolter should be a bit more than essentially '2 bolters strapped together' and should be more powerful against some targets than others. E.g. allow the Storm bolter to have -1AP against INFANTRY targets only.

Toughness represents more than the meat in the armor though.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Hence why Centurions and Aggressors have T5.

**Martel732**

Bharring wrote:
-Termies are weak. 2W doesn't mean enough because of all the D2 weapons out there.
-Primaris are weak. 2W... as above.
-Bikes are weak. 2W... as above.

Mayhaps the problem with the plethera of D2 weapons is the D2, not the 2W models?

Maybe, but that's not getting fixed.

**NurglesR0T**

vict0988 wrote:

NurglesR0T wrote:
I've seen the idea floated around a bit before, but giving them an ability to reduce all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1 would help against the plethora of D2 weapons that they are most susceptible towards.

In fact, give all marines this rule! What's it called in Kill Team? Transhuman Physiology?

Why not give them M8 while you are at it? Big legs = bi steps no? You know Marine can probably shut he pain of y no also fel no pan klo gah bib bub krrrrr.

What an insightful contribution. Thank you.

**skchsan**

Kcalehc wrote:
But a Terminator Marine, is still just a Marine. A somewhat more skilled and experienced one for sure, but the guy inside the armor is still a Space Marine.

So they should be only somewhat more expensive than a marine, not 2x more before gear and 3, after gear.

Assuming marines will never get a point reduction because reasons, termie ppm should be 20 (~1.5x marine) to 23 (~1.75x marine). Termie base is NOT worh two marines.

**txaggieof08**

Makes me, as someone who ran pure deathwing to some pretty good success competitively many years ago, sad to see how badly they've destroyed the unit in this edition.

I would think a points reduction is definitely necessary. 1500pt tourney list was already only 18 or so models.... making them more expensive was not a good thing.

One thing I could see helping over all is a move back away from "power level". The way "power level" works, and it's correlation to points, does not seem to work well from what I'm seeing...stop trying to run two systems.

**fraser1191**

One thing I always wanted was guard at T3, a Sob at T4, a marine scout T4, a Tac marine T5 and finally a Termie at T6. But that would require an entire new edition...

I feel like if ap is supposed to represent the level of Armour penetration, then the Toughness value of the model should represent the entity as a whole.
Edit, The save value I would have represent more of the amours ability to shrug off the shot. Terminator Armour can clearly shrug off more than a flakk jacket

A scout has carapace Armour which more or less is modern body armour in style. A marines suit of Armour is totally enclosed with little to no gaps but he's still the same T as a scout? A Lasgun has equal odds of doing the same damage to say the shoulder?

**Slayer-Fan123**

txaggieof08 wrote:
Makes me, as someone who ran pure deathwing to some pretty good success competitively many years ago, sad to see how badly they've destroyed the unit in this edition.

I would think a points reduction is definitely necessary. 1500pt tourney list was already only 18 or so models.... making them more expensive was not a good thing.

One thing I could see helping over all is a move back away from "power level". The way "power level" works, and it's correlation to points, does not seem to work well from what I'm seeing...stop trying to run two systems.

LOL you did not. In fact this is the best they've been ever. They just need even more help.

**Not Online!!!**

fraser1191 wrote:
One thing I always wanted was guard at T3, a Sob at T4, a marine scout T4, a Tac marine T5 and finally a Termie at T6. But that would require an entire new edition...

I feel like if ap is supposed to represent the level of Armour penetration, then the Toughness value of the model should represent the entity as a whole.
Edit, The save value I would have represent more of the amours ability to shrug off the shot. Terminator Armour can clearly shrug off more than a flakk jacket

A scout has carapace Armour which more or less is modern body armour in style. A marines suit of Armour is totally enclosed with little to no gaps but he's still the same T as a scout? A Lasgun has equal odds of doing the same damage to say the shoulder?

And by consequence making everything but dedicated AT weaponry usefull against nurgle terminators?
I beg your pardon but that is a bad suggestion.

**txaggieof08**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
txaggieof08 wrote:
Makes me, as someone who ran pure deathwing to some pretty good success competitively many years ago, sad to see how badly they've destroyed the unit in this edition.

I would think a points reduction is definitely necessary. 1500pt tourney list was already only 18 or so models.... making them more expensive was not a good thing.

One thing I could see helping over all is a move back away from "power level". The way "power level" works, and it's correlation to points, does not seem to work well from what I'm seeing...stop trying to run two systems.

LOL you did not. In fact this is the best they've been ever. They just need even more help.

I'm glad you remember me from the 98-2000 period when I was playing a lot! It will be great to catch up with some of my old gaming group. Feel free to leave me contact information.

Or are you just talking out your rear end, pretending to know it all, seen it all, done it all?

**Slayer-Fan123**

txaggieof08 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
txaggieof08 wrote:
Makes me, as someone who ran pure deathwing to some pretty good success competitively many years ago, sad to see how badly they've destroyed the unit in this edition.

I would think a points reduction is definitely necessary. 1500pt tourney list was already only 18 or so models.... making them more expensive was not a good thing.

One thing I could see helping over all is a move back away from "power level". The way "power level" works, and it's correlation to points, does not seem to work well from what I'm seeing...stop trying to run two systems.

LOL you did not. In fact this is the best they've been ever. They just need even more help.

I'm glad you remember me from the 98-2000 period when I was playing a lot! It will be great to catch up with some of my old gaming group. Feel free to leave me contact information.

Or are you just talking out your rear end, pretending to know it all, seen it all, done it all?

Nobody ran Deathwing competitively and had success. Sorry. I'm calling you on your crap.