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So I've had a look at Severin loth, and he adds a lot for 175 points.

I currently use tigurius, and I think Severin Loth might be the logical next step.

So I have a couple questions.

What is the Red Scorpions Chapter Tactics?
Does the fact that Severin Loth has Chapter tactics means he's a C:SM character and thus, uses C:SM ally rules
If so, is severin loth therefore allowed to join my farsight bomb?

Assuming all of this, can he take Enfeeble, Endurance and Gate of Infinity? Or must he trade out enfeeble for one of the telepathy powers?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
So I've had a look at Severin loth, and he adds a lot for 175 points.

I currently use tigurius, and I think Severin Loth might be the logical next step.

So I have a couple questions.

What is the Red Scorpions Chapter Tactics?
Does the fact that Severin Loth has Chapter tactics means he's a C:SM character and thus, uses C:SM ally rules
If so, is severin loth therefore allowed to join my farsight bomb?

Assuming all of this, can he take Enfeeble, Endurance and Gate of Infinity? Or must he trade out enfeeble for one of the telepathy powers?

He picks all his powers from one discipline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Scorpions:
Tactical Sergeants can be upgraded to Apothecaries for free

Army wide:
No Going to ground
No Camo Cloaks
Re-roll failed pinning tests.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
So I've had a look at Severin loth, and he adds a lot for 175 points.

I currently use tigurius, and I think Severin Loth might be the logical next step.

So I have a couple questions.

What is the Red Scorpions Chapter Tactics?
Does the fact that Severin Loth has Chapter tactics means he's a C:SM character and thus, uses C:SM ally rules
If so, is severin loth therefore allowed to join my farsight bomb?

Assuming all of this, can he take Enfeeble, Endurance and Gate of Infinity? Or must he trade out enfeeble for one of the telepathy powers?

He picks all his powers from one discipline.

Ah. You're quite right, I misread that.

But everything else is cool, right?

Yep HQ for a Codex: Space Marines army and the Red Scorpion Tactics don't alter the ally matrix.

isn't Loth and Tau one of the tired and overused net lists?

Yep, why a lot of places limit allies to convenience only

viewfinder wrote:
isn't Loth and Tau one of the tired and overused net lists?

I wouldn't describe my list as a "Net list", because most lists use the farsight bomb as something of a markerlight/firesupport unit. Running a farsight bomb correctly calls for quite a bit of a points sink and this means the benefits are bigger, and the risks are worse. If you'd like to know more about an AP1/2 Farsight Bomb. My list hardly falls under "Net list", As a category. If it does, then that would mean I pioneered it.

I saw it played 6 months ago in Virginia. ot's been a netlist sonce the Space Marine Chapter Tactics FW update.

viewfinder wrote:
I saw it played 6 months ago in Virginia. ot's been a netlist sonce the Space Marine Chapter Tactics FW update.

What is OT? I can't think of a single acronym related to this topic that uses those letters.

Also this army has been played long since before The Current Marine Codex, more importantly, since the drop of the update to BW books. Admittedly, I could do something with the old Marine Codex, given that Null Zone and Gate of Infinity were available powers for a normal SM libby.

Also I'd look at a date or two, the post I referred you to is not 6 months old, it's from june of last year - about ten months ago.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
What is OT? I can't think of a single acronym related to this topic that uses those letters.

Ot is a misspelling of "It" caused by the proximity of the letters "O" and "I".

 Happyjew wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
What is OT? I can't think of a single acronym related to this topic that uses those letters.

Ot is a misspelling of "It" caused by the proximity of the letters "O" and "I".

Ah, Okay. I could've guessed that, but it didn't cross my mind that it's just a typo.

yup. fat fingers...

but this is why I am not a fan of FW lists. the TO (who ran this list) never informed anyone of what he had made legal, and completely sandbagged the travelers with a unit no one had ever heard of. his locals just rolled their eyes. since then, not a fan of FW stuff in tournaments.

viewfinder wrote:
yup. fat fingers...

but this is why I am not a fan of FW lists. the TO (who ran this list) never informed anyone of what he had made legal, and completely sandbagged the travelers with a unit no one had ever heard of. his locals just rolled their eyes. since then, not a fan of FW stuff in tournaments.

Fair enough on that. FW can be a real pain sometimes. The Addition of the R'varna and Now Severin Loth basically means that there is not an effective counter to my Farsight bomb, as I get the power I need with 100% accuracy and my one true weakness - tough beast packs (Dark eldar, Khorne Flesh Hounds) are covered by FW.

As for playing the models, I think the onus is on the player to not be a gak opponent and make sure that the other player knows what's going on. I'll check that my opponent knows the nature of what he's doing, and my capabilities. (for example, making sure my opponent knows the farsight bomb has hit and run). It's also important, especially with Forgeworld, to make sure that your opponent can get a good grasp on what the unit does. However, I wouldn't run tau in a friendly tournament. For that, I have my awful Guard army and my Completely countered by flyers Daemon rush list.

There is a weakness to your list Scipio. By putting the support gear on a bodyguard rather than a Commander he can get nailed by barrage snipers and the unit loses its efficacy. The Gravstar and GraVesastar also match up well to the bomb as they put out far more AP2 wounds and ignore cover and have a wound Tank with a 3++ or two.

Yes the Farsight bomb with Loth has been around since the SM codex came out and is one of the Netlists.

 FlingitNow wrote:
There is a weakness to your list Scipio. By putting the support gear on a bodyguard rather than a Commander he can get nailed by barrage snipers and the unit loses its efficacy. The Gravstar and GraVesastar also match up well to the bomb as they put out far more AP2 wounds and ignore cover and have a wound Tank with a 3++ or two.

Yes the Farsight bomb with Loth has been around since the SM codex came out and is one of the Netlists.

I haven't been running Loth as of yet, but I've been running this bomb since the old SM codex. It isn't really a counter. It's a hard game, but I can beat a Gravcent star very comfortably, and O'Vesastar presents an issue only in the form of a rules debate about Monster Hunter.

Can you show me a Grav/vesa star? Is it what it sounds like, also how does it get definite ignores cover? Is it Torchstar, Farsight, O'vesa and Tigurius? Because that's an even larger pointsink than my army is.

Yeah the GraVesastar star is O'Vesa Loth Farsight and Torchstar in a Grav Centurion squad. It is a massively expensive deathstar but all considered still the best there is.

The Farsight bomb could also struggle to 5 Knights. You'll kill perhaps 2 (even that is unlikely, depends if you're running 2 Skyrays or not) then lose most of your drones to shooting and the bomb to combat.

The Gravstar is also still favourite against farsight bomb. It has a little further max threat range (he sits 45" from you and you've only single shot plasma at him where ashe would get his full shooting at you) and is as stated better at killing you than you are at killing it. It would most likely come down to who played it better and dice but the Gravstar is a marginal favourite.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah the GraVesastar star is O'Vesa Loth Farsight and Torchstar in a Grav Centurion squad. It is a massively expensive deathstar but all considered still the best there is.

The Farsight bomb could also struggle to 5 Knights. You'll kill perhaps 2 (even that is unlikely, depends if you're running 2 Skyrays or not) then lose most of your drones to shooting and the bomb to combat.

The Gravstar is also still favourite against farsight bomb. It has a little further max threat range (he sits 45" from you and you've only single shot plasma at him where ashe would get his full shooting at you) and is as stated better at killing you than you are at killing it. It would most likely come down to who played it better and dice but the Gravstar is a marginal favourite.

What're you assuming I'm running on a farsight bomb? I can kill most things in a 9" range. Loth gives me a disadvantage against knights because I can't go on pyromancy, but otherwise I should be fine. It's a game of shoot and tag with knights.

Knights are no different. I do a pen Vs. AV12 35/36 of the time, so I need about 8 hits to bring on down in terms of hull points. (shadowsun + 6 fusion blasters), assuming 4 pens (4 HP), I just need two 4+ (not unreasonable with AP1) to ensure I knock off all 6 hull points. Then, I just need to stay away from anything close to assault range and I should be good. My plasmas are a little bit of a sadder story. I should do about 3 glancing hits with 14 plasma gun shots (11 hit, about 1.83 hits then re-rolls to get about 1.5 more, so 3.33.) Over the course of 2 turns I should bring down 2 knights assuming I can hide on area terrain and don't eat a charge.

That said, I don't plan on playing in tournaments that allow Knights or Superheavies in standard 40k. Strength D should stay in Apocalypse as far as I am concerned.

Knights are fine for normal 40k, in fact they balance a lot of the dumb deathstars, and move 12" so if you're within 9" after your jump back you're likely to be in assault range of several Knights and that's game. Your odds of penetrating against AV12 are not 35/36 they are less than 5/6 and you can't guarantee side armour. I have no reason to come to you.

As for the bomb I'm assuming a mix of plasma and melta but from what you've just said I'm guess mostly if not all fusion. So say you start your turn 45" away from a Gravstar how much damage would you do to the Gravstar in your shooting after you've moved 24" and are 21" away from them? How much because if you didn't jump and shoot them they put 24 AP2 ignoring cover wounds on you plus 8 ap5 ignoring cover wounds and an ignoring cover twin linked Orbital strike (S10 Ap2 largeblast).

 FlingitNow wrote:
Knights are fine for normal 40k, in fact they balance a lot of the dumb deathstars, and move 12" so if you're within 9" after your jump back you're likely to be in assault range of several Knights and that's game. Your odds of penetrating against AV12 are not 35/36 they are less than 5/6 and you can't guarantee side armour. I have no reason to come to you.

As for the bomb I'm assuming a mix of plasma and melta but from what you've just said I'm guess mostly if not all fusion. So say you start your turn 45" away from a Gravstar how much damage would you do to the Gravstar in your shooting after you've moved 24" and are 21" away from them? How much because if you didn't jump and shoot them they put 24 AP2 ignoring cover wounds on you plus 8 ap5 ignoring cover wounds and an ignoring cover twin linked Orbital strike (S10 Ap2 largeblast).

My chance of failing an Armour pen against AV12 basic is 1/6, or 30/36. My chance of failing an armour pen with tank hunters is 1/36. (By failing an armour pen I do include rolling a glance, but I wouldn't bother to re-roll a glance.) It's not all fusion, it's 6 fusion suits and 6 plasma suits. When I talk about it, I assume that farsight and shadowsun can hit at 97%, or I call the 2.7% chance negligible, so I treat it as two automatic hits. Also, why can't I guarantee side armour? Given that most tournaments in my area allow me to infiltrate the bomb (I'm not arguing on this point, I've already had that argument and It's annoying when people don't accept that it is the case here.) I can easily be within 9" of one and 12" of the other the first turn, but the fact is that I'm more likely to stay at 18" range and then jsj away from the knights. (at 18" range I get ~ 2.667 pens and 1.333 glances against a knight, so I should reasonably be able to knock off three hull points), along with plasma, I can get 1.67 + ~3 hull points as well as damage. I might not nuke the knight in one go (I would if it was not being protected by the fact that other knights are so close by.)

Finally, They should not need to introduce superheavies to counter deathstar lists, they need to repair their mockery of a rulesset.

Question, by the way, how does the grav-vesa star make itself more accurate? It seems to have no re-rolls to hit.

Sorry yeah went mental on the maths was doing based on AV14 I apologise for my dumbness there. Right so in your area you houserule that the bomb can infiltrate around here the consensus is to follow the RaW that you can't (I'm still on the fence on RaI leaning towards you can). It does have a massive impact on the effectiveness of the bomb but you're giving up Farsight and having Loth in the unit if you infiltrate. Having said that, infiltrating does not guarantee side armour a decent castle set up should deny you this without you be extremely close a good player will also make it so it is the 3++ Knight that you're shooting first.

I agree they need to fix the balance issue and that Super Heavies isn't the answer but I still think Knights are fine in normal 40k. Destroyer is OP but combat is very under powered so having it as combat only makes it OK IMHO. The easiest fix for 99% of the issues is battle brothers can't join BB units. It makes no sense that they can. I mean why would a marine commander lead a unit or guardsmen when on the field with marines, let alone a Tau commander chilling with Centurions hoping they have USB connections so his funky gear can work... Then FAQ the Grimoire to top out at 3++ and presto the system works again.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sorry yeah went mental on the maths was doing based on AV14 I apologise for my dumbness there. Right so in your area you houserule that the bomb can infiltrate around here the consensus is to follow the RaW that you can't (I'm still on the fence on RaI leaning towards you can). It does have a massive impact on the effectiveness of the bomb but you're giving up Farsight and having Loth in the unit if you infiltrate. Having said that, infiltrating does not guarantee side armour a decent castle set up should deny you this without you be extremely close a good player will also make it so it is the 3++ Knight that you're shooting first.

I agree they need to fix the balance issue and that Super Heavies isn't the answer but I still think Knights are fine in normal 40k. Destroyer is OP but combat is very under powered so having it as combat only makes it OK IMHO. The easiest fix for 99% of the issues is battle brothers can't join BB units. It makes no sense that they can. I mean why would a marine commander lead a unit or guardsmen when on the field with marines, let alone a Tau commander chilling with Centurions hoping they have USB connections so his funky gear can work... Then FAQ the Grimoire to top out at 3++ and presto the system works again.

Not Houserule, Tournaments. Our Biggest state tournaments run it as you can. Also, on the same rules I've never been pulled up for having farsight in the bomb.

I didn't know there was a 3++, I'd have to pummel all my plasma/fusion into that to kill it, but I Could still do it.

I agree on most of the fixes you suggest. IF knights were a AV13/12/12 and 4++, with 6 HP I wouldn't mind. OR if they had the superheavy and destroyer rules (maybe 5 hullpoints?), and the GoTN was never ment to do the wacky 2++ re-rollable thing. It would be as simple as saying "Grimoire only works on the invulnerable save conferred by daemon.", so if you used Grimoire on Fateweaver, he'd get a 3++, and if it failed he'd still get his 4++ (because his 4++ is not given by the daemon rule.)

Not Houserule, Tournaments. Our Biggest state tournaments run it as you can. Also, on the same rules I've never been pulled up for having farsight in the bomb. 

Then you are flatout cheating. IC are specifically prohibited from joining infiltrators if they themselves do not have infiltrate page 38 Infiltrate last paragraph. So yes it is easy to win when cheating.

I didn't know there was a 3++, I'd have to pummel all my plasma/fusion into that to kill it, but I Could still do it. 

And then get charged by its 4 mates... So I think we've established that without cheating your list can't deal with Imperial knights or Gravstar.

I agree on most of the fixes you suggest. IF knights were a AV13/12/12 and 4++, with 6 HP I wouldn't mind. OR if they had the superheavy and destroyer rules (maybe 5 hullpoints?), and the GoTN was never ment to do the wacky 2++ re-rollable thing. It would be as simple as saying "Grimoire only works on the invulnerable save conferred by daemon.", so if you used Grimoire on Fateweaver, he'd get a 3++, and if it failed he'd still get his 4++ (because his 4++ is not given by the daemon rule.) 

Being a Super Heavy just puts them on a par with all the MCs running around these days. Consider them a Wraithknight that is T9 from the front T8 from the side/rear with a 4++ that only works from one angle and doesn't work in combat and has no armour save for 130 points more than a Wraithknight. Sure he can't be ID'd but there's not a lot that can ID a Wraithknight where as nearly every weapon capable of hurting the Knight has a potential to do an extra d3 wounds to him and Melta weapons and Haywire weapons are amazing against him... As I said I think the Knight is perfectly fair the potential for an all Knight army will shift the meta back towards more melta but with Guard on the horizon and I'm guessing all tank armies being possible that may happen anyway. Necrons still laugh at it all though...

 FlingitNow wrote:

Then you are flatout cheating. IC are specifically prohibited from joining infiltrators if they themselves do not have infiltrate page 38 Infiltrate last paragraph. So yes it is easy to win when cheating.

And then get charged by its 4 mates... So I think we've established that without cheating your list can't deal with Imperial knights or Gravstar.

Being a Super Heavy just puts them on a par with all the MCs running around these days. Consider them a Wraithknight that is T9 from the front T8 from the side/rear with a 4++ that only works from one angle and doesn't work in combat and has no armour save for 130 points more than a Wraithknight. Sure he can't be ID'd but there's not a lot that can ID a Wraithknight where as nearly every weapon capable of hurting the Knight has a potential to do an extra d3 wounds to him and Melta weapons and Haywire weapons are amazing against him... As I said I think the Knight is perfectly fair the potential for an all Knight army will shift the meta back towards more melta but with Guard on the horizon and I'm guessing all tank armies being possible that may happen anyway. Necrons still laugh at it all though...

Mate, you need to tone down what you're saying. I'm not saying I haven't had it argued against, I'm saying that It's been argued about and that I've (not just me, other people running similar lists) have been allowed to do such things. I really don't appreciate that tone. I wouldn't do it if I had not been given express permission from one authority or another and I wouldn't expressly cheat to win - winning with my man barbies isn't that important to me. I can still take on grav/vesa or standard grav star, even if I'm refused the power to infiltrate. I just need to go first and get gate - with loth I can definitely do this. I can take out O'vesa in my first volley, assuming the squad is majority Toughness 5 or 6, with four wounds to spare at AP1/2 and 2.675 wounds from AP5 (assuming a 2+ save and toughness 5).

Something I noted during the math there, how does monster hunter interact with O'vesa being in that squad? I mean, they are rolling to wound against a monstrous creature.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Something I noted during the math there, how does monster hunter interact with O'vesa being in that squad? I mean, they are rolling to wound against a monstrous creature.

Similar to the Preferred Enemy debate I'd imagine. If O'vesa is an IC joined to a unit of non-MC, and counts as a member of that unit for "all rules purposes"...

No-one really knows, GW didn't feel like explaining how mixed units interact in many cases.

Using Shadowsun to infiltrate the bomb is debatable on RaI that's not what I'm claiming is cheating. But attaching non-infiltrating units is flat out a no as the rule I quoted states.

Monster hunter against mixed units is just a HYWPI argument as the rules literally give us no indication of how it should work with mixed units.

Your maths I have to question against the Gravstar. So you go first and I deploy my gravstar 45" away from Loth. You gate and are 21" away so how are you doing wounds with gun drones and fusion suits? You really kill O'Vesa with 4 wounds to spare with 6 shots. I want to see what maths you used for that?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Using Shadowsun to infiltrate the bomb is debatable on RaI that's not what I'm claiming is cheating. But attaching non-infiltrating units is flat out a no as the rule I quoted states.

Monster hunter against mixed units is just a HYWPI argument as the rules literally give us no indication of how it should work with mixed units.

Your maths I have to question against the Gravstar. So you go first and I deploy my gravstar 45" away from Loth. You gate and are 21" away so how are you doing wounds with gun drones and fusion suits? You really kill O'Vesa with 4 wounds to spare with 6 shots. I want to see what maths you used for that?

ah, you're quite right - I was assuming 12" range, actually. How does the grav star stay 45" away, by the way? I don't need to gate from Severin Loth, I can gate from any single model in the squad (re-read the Rulebook Gate of Infinity Rule. It differs from the old Space Marine Version of the rule.). Surely if I deploy along the deployment edge in a conga line, they can't be anywhere that is actually more than 36" away, assuming they're right on the boardedge? It's a *little* harder in Hammer and Anvil, yet both Vanguard and Pitched battle don't present an issue. In fact, if I use a large enough counter I can usually gate about 25", given that the rule tells me to place a marker next to the model I was going to gate from. but if I'm going to be out of range, I'll hide in the backfield all game if I have to - I don't have quite the ranged output of O'vesa, But I hide easier than he does.

As for the rules, as I said, Fling, I've been specifically allowed to do it. I Would not continue to do it if the tournaments I was going to did not give me a definite "Yes you can do it". That's why I feel you're being overly harsh in calling my use of infiltrate cheating.

Well you now know it is strictly forbidden in the rules continuing to do so in games is certainly cheating even if you can get away with it.

So if you go first in 1/3 missions then you'll get to do that...

I can't wait to find new uses for my Eldar now that I know I can change how Infiltrate works.

Yeah, I played in a tournament where the TO asked why I didn't infiltrate my Farsight Bomb. I pointed out the rule that doesn't allow non infiltrating ICs to join units of Infiltrators during deployment. He was unaware of the rule.

So, two points.

1. TOs can be wrong.
2. I would know I was breaking a rule even if it was allowed by the TO and I'm competitive enough that any victory would be meaningless as it would have no integrity in my mind.

 Kriswall wrote:
Yeah, I played in a tournament where the TO asked why I didn't infiltrate my Farsight Bomb. I pointed out the rule that doesn't allow non infiltrating ICs to join units of Infiltrators during deployment. He was unaware of the rule.

So, two points.

1. TOs can be wrong.
2. I would know I was breaking a rule even if it was allowed by the TO and I'm competitive enough that any victory would be meaningless as it would have no integrity in my mind.

TO's can only be wrong outside of their own tournament. I don't feel the same way. When you attend a tournament you are effectively signing away your right to protest with a TO, which means a TO takes precedence over the rulebook. I don't think it lacks integrity to play the way you're allowed to by the tournament, especially if others are fine to play it the same way. What I might do rather, is alert my regular tournament organisers to the fact that the rule reads like it does and see what they say, if they say it's cool to continue, then I will, if they say it isn't, then I won't.

Also I rarely need to infiltrate if I get gate of infinity for given reasons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well you now know it is strictly forbidden in the rules continuing to do so in games is certainly cheating even if you can get away with it.

So if you go first in 1/3 missions then you'll get to do that...

2/3 of missions I'm fine, but I think you mean a third of the time I'll get to do that which is correct. In Hammer and Anvil I just wait along my backline and shoot at them with my icarus cannons and R'varna. I don't need to kill them if they aren't threatening me, and if I'm hidden behind LOS blocking terrain or well enough behind my firestorm, I won't be in trouble. It's worth noting I'd relinquish first turn if this was the case.