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This is a multiple choice poll.

Bear in mind that the more things you pick, the costlier each Rough Rider will get. So its best if you rather prioritize one of the above and say "THAT is what they desperately need", or choose 2-3 at most.

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Rough Riders were never really the bee's knees in previous edition(s). However, ever since 6th they have started to seriously suck. Okay they can move twice as fast now, and got HoW attacks, but thats not what we bought them for now, did we? With a one-use only lance, at least in 5th they could take down terminators with their charge. Now their lances are crap. They suck at shooting, they suck at being survivable, they suck at staying in close combat, they really are a mobile waste of points now.

And while 6th edition boosted bikers to kingdom come, Beasts and Cavalry didnt get the same treatment. So, what idea do you have as proposed rules that would make Rough Riders a viable and competitive choice?


Personally I'd make their lances AP4 (after all, when was the last time you've seen a terminator or even a space marine get gored by something as ordinary as a cavalry charge?), but make them reusable, and give them outflank, jink and frag nades to make them a viable charge/counter charge/surprise unit at decent strength and initiative.

Hit & Run, reload lances after escaping combatr only.

As I am intending to use a significant amount of rough riders in my custom planets army I would like to see them improved in some way, however I only have the older version of the codex whicn doesnt do much justice explaning how rough riders work etc I take it the latest edition of the codex has not done it justic either?

It had made them worse by 1 point

Add a variant that has Outflank, lasguns, two special weapons per five models, and the ability to make a bonus move in the Assault phase if they don't charge and aren't locked in combat. Under the current meta an assault-focused unit is never really going to be playable no matter how much you tweak it since it gets focused down and dies early, though Outflank, Hit and Run, and reusable lances would go a fair way towards making assault Rough Riders better.

They need Mogal Kimar back. He made them worth taking with Rage and FC. Even loosing their +1 from specialist weapons, if he was still in the codex, his 2 rules would have made them still worth taking. I fielded 2 ten strong squads in the 5th codex and they were always worth taking with that he gave (plus Creed's special rule).

The DKOK rough riders are pretty much spot on. T4 with 2 wounds and 4+ save makes them actually seem like horses.

I've never ever understood how a friggin 800 pound warhorse gives absolutely no stat changes to a guardsman.

They're T3 in the Krieg codex, however they also have that rule that makes them immune to fear and to morale check vs shoot as well as platoon rules,which mean that they'll get into assault.

They also have a 6+ FNP, which while minor, is alright

Oh! And WS4

How to fix rough riders...

Get rid of the horses, and make them bear cavalry. Problem solved.

Its not listed, but I think 2 wounds

Nix the horses and put them on dirt bikes. Give them Move Through Cover and Scout. Give them binoculars or some ability that lets them be eyes on the enemy for artillery, sort of like Pathfinders for Tau.

Dont giev them re usable lances. Lances tend to shatter on horse charges (let alone explosive ones), Instead give them another weapon to use afterwards, like a sabre which can act like a power sword on the charge. That way they can still be useful on the charge just not as useful as before.

WS4 too.

Thats all I wish for.

None needed, perfectly viable unit.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
None needed, perfectly viable unit.

Yea... once every few months if you play weekly....

But that generally means they suck.

I mean, im not one for dismissing units very often, but they suck, a lot.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
None needed, perfectly viable unit.

you must be trolling. Look at the Shining Spears and then tell me that GW isnt racist

A ground-up rebuild for me, personally, with gobs of options to allow you to build a cavalry unit that you want. Also, an option to make a mounted command squad, just 'cause.

So, we start with Bob the Trooper.
WS 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, A 1, LD 7, SV 5+

Hi Bob!

With a lasgun, he's 5 points, but we'll be taking that away from him, Yoink! We'll go ahead and give him a CCW, however and call him 4 pts.

He's on a horse, so we give him Cavalry rules (12" movement, ignore difficult terrain, fall back 3d6", Fleet, and Hammer of Wrath). We'll also give him +1 Toughness for having a mount like a biker. Know what? Let's give him +1A for the mount as well.

We'll call all of this 4 points of upgrades for him, so he's currently a 8 pt model, with a base unit being five models for 40 pts, and up to five additional models for 8 pts each.

This is where the fun starts.

First, we give some options. Upgrade to a veteran sergeant for 10 points as standard. The vet sarge can replace his ccw with a power weapon for 10 points and can take a plasma pistol for 10 points as well.

Any model in the unit can take a laspistol for 1 point.
Any model in the unit can be given a lascarbine for 1 point.
Any model in the unit can be given a standard lance for 1 point. (Lance is S+1, AP 4, only when charging, "special issue")
Any model in the unit can be given an explosive lance for 3 points per model. (Explosive lance is +2 S, AP 3, one use only, with... nuts. Special issue? The one that keeps you from getting +1 A for two CCW.)

One model in the unit may be given a flamer for +5 pts, a plasma gun for +10 pts, or a melta gun for +15 pts.
If the unit = 10 models, a secodn may be given a special weapon as well.

The entire unit may be given any one of the following doctrines.

Outriders: The unit gains Scout for +1 pts/model
Medium Cavalry: The unit gains a 4+ Sv for +2 pts/model
Heavy cavalry: The unit gains a 3+ Sv but cannot be given lasweapons or special weapons for +4 pts/model

(There should be a sort of Mongol Archer option, but.)

At that point, you can build the Rough Riders in different ways, from light scouts to medium cav lasgunners to heavy cavalry Empire-style to disposable special weapons platforms to stuck-in melee fighters.

Top it off with allowing command squads to buy horses for a squad that has no heavy weapon team for +5 pts per model, granting Cavalry rules, +1T, and +1W.

Hunting lance also give +2 init.

Are we looking at the same codex? Mine already says they have a pistol and close combat weapon, as well as frag and krak grenades.

My preferences are not listed:

Make their HoW attack use their lance profile. The attack auto hits, which solves their poor WS problem. Overall they get half the lance attacks on the charge, yet they automatically hit, so the damage output is the same. However, because they are not using the lance for their attacks, they can gain an extra attack for pistol and cc weapon. (This also stops the absurd image of the riders charging at an I6 model, only to be hit first, despite the 10 foot pole between them).

The lance profile itself should be buffed to +3 strength, at least let them wound marines on a 2+. I think AP3 is fine, as long as the weapon is reusable.
It would be re-usable.
If it were one use then it certainly should be ap2.
Give the unit Hit and run, then they can make better use of their new re-usable weapon.

Lower the points cost by 2. Even with power weapon lances, T3 5+ models who die when they run through cover and who are shot to bits when they are not in it should never cost more than 10 points. 9 points seems right to me.

Y'know, tying the lance in for a special Hamer of Wrath attack ain't a bad idea.

keep the lance ap3 on the charge.
make them reusable.
Give them the skilled rider special rule. (after all, they ride horse in the year 40000)

add 2-3 points to their cost

 mixer86 wrote:
keep the lance ap3 on the charge.
make them reusable.
Give them the skilled rider special rule. (after all, they ride horse in the year 40000)

add 2-3 points to their cost

wut?
Add points to their cost???
Why would you suggest that? They are already over costed.
Skilled rider helps them get through cover, but they get no jink save, so it will not help their survivability except with regards to running through cover. Reusable lances is fine, but with a 5+ save it will be a miracle if they even get to use them once.
And you want to make them 2-3 points more for these slight benefits? At least make them scoring units or something for that cost. Or let them shoot rainbows. Maybe that would justify spending 14 points on a T3 5+ model.

Add points to their cost???
Why would you suggest that? They are already over costed.

they are not that bad. they are a cheap quirky unit. can't have everything in the dex broken all to hell.

Skilled rider helps them get through cover, but they get no jink save, so it will not help their survivability except with regards to running through cover.

exactly my point.

Reusable lances is fine, but with a 5+ save it will be a miracle if they even get to use them once.

they going to be you only unit on the board then are they? going to be priority 1 for the enemy to kill over tanks, flyers etc?

And you want to make them 2-3 points more for these slight benefits?

Well, the options i stated ARE improvements. ergo a points cost is a reasonable expectation.

At least make them scoring units or something for that cost. Or let them shoot rainbows. Maybe that would justify spending 14 points on a T3 5+ model.

Guard in general are a 5+ save army, why should these guard be any different? toughness 4 seems a fair trade here.

they are not that bad. they are a cheap quirky unit.

You are right, they are not "that bad", they are actually terrible.

They should be different because these guard can't shoot at 24, receive orders, go to ground, hold objectives, be joined by characters who can move at the same speed or hide in cover.
They have the same save and toughness as a regular guardsman, but are nearly 2 times the cost.
They are designed for close combat, and whilst they have the speed to get there, they do not have the armour to survive even one round of shooting, let alone overwatch after that.
Even once they get to cc, they have mediocre weapon skill, and if they do not kill a target squad, then you should expect to receive casualties in return.

People always use the "they are not the only thing on the table" line to attempt to use bad units.
Rough riders are a melee assault squad who need to be in your opponents face to do any damage. They are too weak to actually achieve this, and too expensive to be a simple distraction.
I really don't see rough riders ever becoming broken, however it would be nice to see them actually be playable outside of novelty games.

They should be different because these guard can't shoot at 24, receive orders, go to ground, hold objectives, be joined by characters who can move at the same speed or hide in cover.

Your right, they have ap3 CC attacks and are faster than a guardsman, doesn't mean they should have the equivalent of power armour or terminator armour does it? can they take carapace armour? can't remember.

They have the same save and toughness as a regular guardsman, but are nearly 2 times the cost.

see above, as i said before i agreed T4 could be the compromise here.

AP2 close combat attacks makes them definitive, Sv4+ makes them reliable.

MY take is do that, then let ministorium priests become cavalry.

I just cannot believe in the technological age of riptides, wraithknights and Imperial Knights, people still ride horses into battle.

Every time they are fielded it must be like the charge of the light brigade.

thing is the unit isn't that bad at all.

a unit is 55 points for 5 models.

they are Initiative 5 on the charge, ap3, and should get the charge.

that vs marines is 11 attacks at str 5, going first.

5.5 hits
3.5 - 4 dead marines

that cripple a 5 man tac squad, which is more expensive.

i think skilled rider plus T4 would be fair.

 Imperator_Class wrote:
I just cannot believe in the technological age of riptides, wraithknights and Imperial Knights, people still ride horses into battle.

Every time they are fielded it must be like the charge of the light brigade.

That gave me am idea for something I would like and was mentioned earlier.

Rough Rider Command Squad (HQ) Most of the same options as normal CCS but no heavy weapons or named characters. Special Rule "Charge of the Light Brigade" Unlocks Rough Riders as Troops/scoring and allows Commissars/Priests/Psykers to upgrade to cavalry at +5 points. Can you imaging 60+ rough riders charging across the field! It would be epic! And I think making that a Rough Rider CCS would be used by many due to the increase in mobility it would offer even if the special rule was never used

Rough riders aren't unusable, they are just overpriced and unbalanced (too much offensive capability for a unit that will never survive to reach combat). Make them a bit cheaper and a little tougher, keep them the same cost and make them a lot tougher or nerf the lances and make them a lot cheaper.