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Assassins are hardly ever used due to their high points cost/easy to kill. SO if we keep them the same points how can we make them better?

All assassins should have a 3+ save.

Vindicare assassin- Should have shrouded and stealth special rule and also his ranged attacks should ignore cover.

Callidus- should have psychotroke grenades and rad grenades. Should also have a special rule that it can arrive from reserve in turn 1.

Eversor- should have the infiltrate and scout special rule and should have psychtroke and rad grenades.

Culexus- Etherium special rule should be changed so instead of any unit wanting to fire at the assassin must pass a leadership test on 3d6 and if failed can shoot at other targets it should be if failed cannot shoot at anyone else. The ranged animus speculum should cause a peril of the warps along with any other effect when shooting at psykers.

I love the models, and have had them for years. But I think I've only ever played them once. I took an eversor who got shot to death by a bunch of space marine scouts with bolt pistols :(

I wish they were useful. Really I think they just need to cost fewer points, and have two or three custom missions.

Just make them cost less.
They are extremely pricy because they have the potential to eradicate pretty much anything they get a turn at, the price just forgets its not easy to get an assassin to do his job in the firstplace.

Making them more lethal is silly, they re already some of the must destructive units sub-apoc you can find, and even IN apoc they are quite destructive.

As for each individual suggestion you made, the reasons why NOT:

3+ save, wont change a thing. will still die if exposed for a second, just take a few bolters more. they are usually over-killed as it is.

Vindicare-so, you want to make him brain-dead by removing the only thing that gives you ANY defense against him?

Callidus-why? these grenades makes no sense for her, and arriving for reserves turn 1 beats the purpose and will even make her weaker.

Eversor-wont change a thing, he already blends anything he hits, and infiltrators/scouts cannot assault the first turn, leading to early grave when so fragile. he's job is to hide somewhere and make sure you wont come to him, not to go to you.

Culexus-already Find a better term here please. Reds8n psykers, why bother adding perils? and why would not seeing him make you suddenly not able to see anyone else, the who concept behind the Etherium is that you just CANT NOTICE HIM

champagne_socialist wrote:


Callidus- should have psychotroke grenades and rad grenades. Should also have a special rule that it can arrive from reserve in turn 1.

.

All she really needs is a return to the ability to assault on the turn she arrives.

I'd say the way to fix assassins would be to scale back their offensive capabilities and drop their points. Make them less attractive targets. They are ridiculously overpowered at the moment.

That said, if you want to increase their survivability...

Callidus assassins could gain the ability to merge into other units. At the very least they could have Independent Character so you can hide them in friendly units after revealing them or have an alternative method of deploying them.

Vindicare assassins could have some kind of defensive bonus so long as they don't move or shoot. Maybe disallow anyone further than 12" from shooting at them, or restricting all shots at them to snap shots?

For an Assassin, the Vindicaire is actually really bad at killing high value multiwound models. He can debuff them, but firing at anything with more than two wounds other than to take away their invulnerable save is a waste.

This also belongs to proposed rules.

The Vindicare doesn't really need to be made better, he's capable of one-shotting most vehicles fairly reliably.

The Callidus would be much, much better if she was placed in melee contact with the target squad on arriving instead of hitting them and landing some short distance away to get shot down. Maybe force her to pick landing and shooting with the neuro-flamer or landing in close combat?

Vindicare - Fine as he is.

Callidus - Let her assault the turn she arrives.

Eversor - Give him Infiltrate, and change the Neuro-Gauntlet back to Poisoned (4+).

Culexus - Give him Infiltrate, give back his special Psy-Grenades, and some sort of special ability vs Psykers.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Vindicare - Fine as he is.

Callidus - Let her assault the turn she arrives.

Eversor - Give him Infiltrate, and change the Neuro-Gauntlet back to Poisoned (4+).

Culexus - Give him Infiltrate, give back his special Psy-Grenades, and some sort of special ability vs Psykers.

Yeah the vindicare is powerful enough. Mostly for anti vehicle, slay the warlord, and picking out expensive upgrade models. No changes needed.

The others are just going to suffer, basically no matter what you do. They do most of their damage in close combat, and close combat sucks in 6th.

 Exergy wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Vindicare - Fine as he is.

Callidus - Let her assault the turn she arrives.

Eversor - Give him Infiltrate, and change the Neuro-Gauntlet back to Poisoned (4+).

Culexus - Give him Infiltrate, give back his special Psy-Grenades, and some sort of special ability vs Psykers.

Yeah the vindicare is powerful enough. Mostly for anti vehicle, slay the warlord, and picking out expensive upgrade models. No changes needed.

The others are just going to suffer, basically no matter what you do. They do most of their damage in close combat, and close combat sucks in 6th.

the vindicare does need some improvements but the least out of the 4. He is not worth the 145 points hence why he is hardly ever used. Yes his sniper is good but it is only 36 inch range, he can't join units so he is just a sitting target with a 4+ save. He just needs the shrouded and stealth special rule and that his weapon ignores cover. 2 very minor changes but will make him a lot more survivable.

I'd prefer the Vindicaire's 2+ to wound sniper rifle gets instant death so he can actually assassinate high value models rather than just be a vehicle cracker and invulnerable save stripper.

He should still permit cover saves though.

 Kain wrote:
I'd prefer the Vindicaire's 2+ to wound sniper rifle gets instant death so he can actually assassinate high value models rather than just be a vehicle cracker and invulnerable save stripper.

He should still permit cover saves though.

Give him a force sniper rifle and soul blaze. Boom, problem solved.

I redid the Assassins for 6th Edition in my Codex Sisters of Battle. I reigned in their ridiculous stats and gave them back their unique special rules.

I made it so the Callidus Assassin can assault the turn she arrives and can't be overwatched.

I gave the Eversor Deepstrike to match it's fluff of arriving in a 1 man drop pod/stasis coffin.

The Vindicare has an Auspex, Stealth, and Infiltrate.

They're largely based off of their 3rd edition incarnations with some influence from 5th edition.

 J3f wrote:
I redid the Assassins for 6th Edition in my Codex Sisters of Battle. I reigned in their ridiculous stats and gave them back their unique special rules.

I made it so the Callidus Assassin can assault the turn she arrives and can't be overwatched.

I gave the Eversor Deepstrike to match it's fluff of arriving in a 1 man drop pod/stasis coffin.

The Vindicare has an Auspex, Stealth, and Infiltrate.

They're largely based off of their 3rd edition incarnations with some influence from 5th edition.

Remember when the stats came in a handy $10 Assassins Codex instead of a $60 Grey Knights book?

 TheSilo wrote:

 J3f wrote:
I redid the Assassins for 6th Edition in my Codex Sisters of Battle. I reigned in their ridiculous stats and gave them back their unique special rules.

I made it so the Callidus Assassin can assault the turn she arrives and can't be overwatched.

I gave the Eversor Deepstrike to match it's fluff of arriving in a 1 man drop pod/stasis coffin.

The Vindicare has an Auspex, Stealth, and Infiltrate.

They're largely based off of their 3rd edition incarnations with some influence from 5th edition.

Remember when the stats came in a handy $10 Assassins Codex instead of a $60 Grey Knights book?

Remember when the Legion of the Damned came in a handy LOTD codex instead of-

(Too soon?)

Instead of a FW thing, I think that's the closest thing to the LOTD.

Legion of the Damned, Bob, not Lost and the Damned.

Oooh, that'll teach me to post on alcohol...

Assassins coulld reasonably be 35 points a pop. They're dangerous, sure, but flimsy like a dark eldar raider

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Assassins coulld reasonably be 35 points a pop. They're dangerous, sure, but flimsy like a dark eldar raider

Thirty-five points for a man that can Infiltrate into the best position on the battlefield and then one-shot a Land Raider is slightly absurd. Assassins are a high risk/high reward sort of unit.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Assassins coulld reasonably be 35 points a pop. They're dangerous, sure, but flimsy like a dark eldar raider

Thirty-five points for a man that can Infiltrate into the best position on the battlefield and then one-shot a Land Raider is slightly absurd. Assassins are a high risk/high reward sort of unit.

If by "high risk, high reward" you mean "first blood bait"

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Assassins coulld reasonably be 35 points a pop. They're dangerous, sure, but flimsy like a dark eldar raider

Thirty-five points for a man that can Infiltrate into the best position on the battlefield and then one-shot a Land Raider is slightly absurd. Assassins are a high risk/high reward sort of unit.

If by "high risk, high reward" you mean "first blood bait"

It's the question of whether they get first blood of your hundred-and-fifty-point Vindicare or you get First Blood off their two-hundred-point Russ. Risk/reward.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


It's the question of whether they get first blood of your hundred-and-fifty-point Vindicare or you get First Blood off their two-hundred-point Russ. Risk/reward.

Who's got a 200 point russ?

The good ones only cost like 170 at the most if you take sponsons.

Also, do you mean the roughly 30% chance that you blow it up with a turbopenetrator round?

So you're paying 145 points for a 1/3 chance to make your points back and get first blood.

Okay.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


It's the question of whether they get first blood of your hundred-and-fifty-point Vindicare or you get First Blood off their two-hundred-point Russ. Risk/reward.

Who's got a 200 point russ?

The good ones only cost like 170 at the most if you take sponsons.

Also, do you mean the roughly 30% chance that you blow it up with a turbopenetrator round?

So you're paying 145 points for a 1/3 chance to make your points back and get first blood.

Okay.

I'm still working on the numbers (odds of getting X 6s on 4d6 is a weird problem I haven't figured out how to do properly yet) but yup, that's about the size of it. Also in practice with careful Infiltrate deployment it's possible to put the Vindicare somewhere he's not going to take a lot of return fire and people tend to underestimate him. I use one in every game, he's never failed to make his points back for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forty-five percent of a pen without factoring in Rending, by the way (translates roughly to twenty percent chance of a one-hit kill on AV14); factoring in Rending is where things start to get really complicated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Numbers done. About 34% chance of one-shotting an AV14 vehicle outright, higher chance of crippling it, eighty percent chance of removing at least one hull point. In my experience the Vindicare tends to get off two or three shots in a game, he's fairly effective at getting vehicles out of the way.

Did you use excel and a bunch of different spreadsheets? Because if you did, I feel your time and pain

 J3f wrote:

I made it so the Callidus Assassin can assault the turn she arrives and can't be overwatched.

I honestly would like something akin to the rules for Alpharius in reverse. So pretty much you mark down an opponent's unit without them knowing what unit it is before the game. Then at any one point you can reveal your Callidus assassin, placing them in base contact with the unit, starting in assault. Would make closing to assault with their target even easier if the Callidus could start inside the bodyguard of their target.

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:

I made it so the Callidus Assassin can assault the turn she arrives and can't be overwatched.

I honestly would like something akin to the rules for Alpharius in reverse. So pretty much you mark down an opponent's unit without them knowing what unit it is before the game. Then at any one point you can reveal your Callidus assassin, placing them in base contact with the unit, starting in assault. Would make closing to assault with their target even easier if the Callidus could start inside the bodyguard of their target.

That would limit the Callidus Assassin to having to appear next to an enemy unit and having to start in assault. The upside would be ignoring rules for reserves. Originally (and in my version) the Callidus could appear anywhere on the battlefield when reserves were available.

I don't like having to start the Callidus in an assault because you lose the use of the Neural Shredder.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Did you use excel and a bunch of different spreadsheets? Because if you did, I feel your time and pain

I ended up finding enough shortcuts mathing that it mostly turned into a copy-paste exercise. I saved the spreadsheet if you've got any other questions about the odds.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Did you use excel and a bunch of different spreadsheets? Because if you did, I feel your time and pain

I ended up finding enough shortcuts mathing that it mostly turned into a copy-paste exercise. I saved the spreadsheet if you've got any other questions about the odds.

we arrived at the same answer, actually. I'm just more skeptical about it than you are.