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Look - we never "officially" had a Hydra that could scratch the paint off Flyers in the first place. It was only the FAQ that allowed them to. And when something gets FAQd, usually GW doesnt change points cost as well.

My guess is that a Hydra with Skyfire and ignores jink would be much costlier than the old Hydra that could only shoot at ground targets.

That being said, one thing people keep forgetting is that you can take 3 Hydras in 1 HS slot occupying battery. This is more anti-flyer firepower than most armies can field (except Tau). While 210 points worth of things that can only target Skimmers and Flyers might be a waste, I think two for 140 points is a fine middle ground and allows you to delete most flyers from the sky in 2 turns of firing and against armies like Eldar or Tau, continues to be a solid purchase.

With an enclosed crew compartment, the new Hydra is 10 points costlier than the old one and doesnt ignore jink, but has skyfire (giving it interceptor would have been overkill, I think - to the point where everybody would spam them)

FInally, we do not know what changes 7th edition will make to "skyfire" and "interceptor". The former might no longer require interceptor in addition, to be able to fire at ground targets at normal BS. If this becomes true, Hydras will be 100%ly viable.

In any case, the unit that still remains absolutely useless is the Leman Russ Exterminator - a weapon that is definitely worse than a Hydra's armament, mounted on a tank that is almost twice as costly and for the extra points you might be more survivable (this is arguable, since 2 Hydras have a total of 6HPs), but only have half the firepower and can still only target ground troops.

Hydras are just wastes of Leman Russ slots waiting to be swept off the board by the nearest doom scythe.

I will agree that the old hydra was too cheap for what it did. It cost the same as an autocannon HWS, and put down the same number of hits, but was vastly more durable, and passed its ignores cover saves order 100% of the time, instead of like half the time, and didn't need an order to do it. It probably should have cost more like 85 or 90 points.

Skip over 5th and FAQ 6th to the new codex. Now it does seem much more fairly priced. The same as the HWS, and still more durable (though not quite so absurdly so thanks to hull points and open top), and still puts the same number of hits against its prime target.

Yes, of course, it loses the ability to be good against non-skimmers and non-fliers, but that's sort of the point of skyfire. Meanwhile, they lost ignores cover, which is a real loss compared to infantry, who can still receive the order, but on the other hand, the HWSs lost the order that lets them twin-link against fliers, so the TL nature of the hydra is still important. Plus, the hydra gets a free heavy bolter, and can take a super cheap heavy stubber, both of which can engage ground targets just fine.

All in all, I think it's fairly priced for what it does.

The reason it's still terrible, though, is because it's stuck with autocannons and is only really great against fliers. The only reason people are finally beginning to realise that this is crappy is because they're finally starting to realise how crappy autocannons are, and how unnecessary dedicated anti-flier weapons are. Clear away the irrational fear of fliers, and hydras are shown clearly for what they are - appropriately costed, but ultimately not really necessary.

That and, of course, that the exterminator has just gotten so much cheaper, but russes in general got too cheaper in this codex anyways.

Not that I'd take them. Much of the reason hydras are crummy is why exterminators are crummy.

It is actually disappointing that there is no option to give it Skyfire, there's nothing in the AM codex with that I don't think and it's weird that there is not.

I think Hydras are fine, I mean it works on Skimmers as well as Flyers so I think it's well worth taking.

There is a lot of strange stuff in this thread.

The hydra is bad at it's job. It averages less than 1 HP a turn against a heldrake, jinking vendetta, vulture, valkyrie, or moving waveserpent. Against nightscythes it averages 1 HP...not great considering all of those will kill a hydra with ease and will get to shoot first unless you reserve the hydra.

Comparing Hydra's against HWS is pointless. When you make a comparison to try and state something is a good value you should compare it to something decent. A good comparison would be the hydra (70 pts) vs a quadd gunn+PCS (80 pts). Just in a comparison of the damage the PCS is better, it is much more survivable with a T7 weapon vs an open topped AV12 vehicle. The quadd gun has interceptor and can take orders to gain tank hunter (and thus actually be good at it's job).

The Hydra used to be fairly useful as it ignore jink and thus was pretty good against skimmers and nightscythes. Now it is pretty bad (not ignoring jink reduced damage by 50% and 33% against these vehicles). Now it is not terrible (and has it's uses) but it is not good by any stretch. It is just too fragile, does mediocre damage, and lacks variety in it's targets. It is however a cheap source of Str 7 skyfire and can be taken in unit of 3. It is also a vehicle which can be a positive against some armies (ie DE).

ansacs wrote:Comparing Hydra's against HWS is pointless. When you make a comparison to try and state something is a good value you should compare it to something decent.

Both are fragile units that land three autocannon hits against their intended targets per turn for the exact same price. The comparison is more than apt.

Yeah, you could compare it to, say, a vendetta, which is decent at anti-air, but now we're comparing a flier against an open topped vehicle, and something to something that costs 2.5x its price.

The hydra isn't going to roflstomp fliers, but neither should it at its price tag.

ansacs wrote:A good comparison would be the hydra (70 pts) vs a quadd gunn+PCS (80 pts). Just in a comparison of the damage the PCS is better, it is much more survivable with a T7 weapon vs an open topped AV12 vehicle.

But you can only take exactly one quad gun, while that pretty serious restriction doesn't apply to a hydra. They also don't use the rules for gun-crew artillery, where the artillery can be killed, and it needs an active crew, neither of which is true for a hydra.

And the PISs have the same problem as the HWSs. You're comparing 240 points of infantry against 70 points of hydra. And then you're adding in orders, which means more cost, and the possibility of failed leadership tests that aren't being accounted for.

It's not even a remotely fair comparison.

Really, the only problem is that...

ansacs wrote:It is just too fragile, does mediocre damage, and lacks variety in it's targets.

Which is explained by...

Ailaros wrote:The only reason people are finally beginning to realise that this is crappy is because they're finally starting to realise how crappy autocannons are, and how unnecessary dedicated anti-flier weapons are. Clear away the irrational fear of fliers, and hydras are shown clearly for what they are - appropriately costed, but ultimately not really necessary.

noting that you can take 3 hydras is Important. that's the thing about the guard. individually they're, for the most part, NOT that great by themselves. but you can take THREE of them. that's what the Imperial guard is about. OVER WHELMING FIREPOWER

Hail Hydra

 Ailaros wrote:
Both are fragile units that land three autocannon hits against their intended targets per turn for the exact same price. The comparison is more than apt.

Yeah, you could compare it to, say, a vendetta, which is decent at anti-air, but now we're comparing a flier against an open topped vehicle, and something to something that costs 2.5x its price.

The hydra isn't going to roflstomp fliers, but neither should it at its price tag.

The problem is that HWS are not appropriately priced. They are overcosted by a fairly significant margin. If you take an assumption that is false and then build atop that assumption a chain of logic that the Hydra is fairly costed then the entire argument is false. There is also the fact that the HWS can at least become semi useful if you get tank hunter onto them. Tank hunter makes autocannons pretty good.

 Ailaros wrote:
But you can only take exactly one quad gun, while that pretty serious restriction doesn't apply to a hydra. They also don't use the rules for gun-crew artillery, where the artillery can be killed, and it needs an active crew, neither of which is true for a hydra.

And the PISs have the same problem as the HWSs. You're comparing 240 points of infantry against 70 points of hydra. And then you're adding in orders, which means more cost, and the possibility of failed leadership tests that aren't being accounted for.

It's not even a remotely fair comparison.

and the hydra has to take 2 troops and an HQ choice to even be taken...so I assume you are trying to talk carrier costs but I am talking about any troop choice (which you have to take anyways). None of this changes the fact that a quadd gun is an appropriately priced weapon that is just better in everyway than a hyrdra. You are also ignoring a bunch of rules which state you can take more than 1 quadd gun in a defense network.

Funny enough you could compare 2.5 hydras to a vendetta pretty fairly. Both need to be reserved if you plan to use them against flyers (and not have them destroyed instantly). They are similar pts value, the vendetta is tougher, much more mobile, has a transport capacity, and does similar damage (1.7 HP vs 1 HP and 14% explode vs 25% explode).

 Ailaros wrote:
Really, the only problem is that...

ansacs wrote:It is just too fragile, does mediocre damage, and lacks variety in it's targets.

Which is explained by...

Ailaros wrote:The only reason people are finally beginning to realise that this is crappy is because they're finally starting to realise how crappy autocannons are, and how unnecessary dedicated anti-flier weapons are. Clear away the irrational fear of fliers, and hydras are shown clearly for what they are - appropriately costed, but ultimately not really necessary.

Some of the fliers are vital to remove. Heldrakes and nightscythes are both important flyers and can heavily tilt the game. Vendetta's and stormravens are good anti tank units but nothing that cannot be mitigated. I would agree that anti air is not the automatic loss that many of the players appear to assume it is. The problem is that the GW codex writers overvalue skyfire value and strength 7 weapons. This is a recurring trend in seen in flakk missiles and hydras where both are considerably overcosted.

The big benefit the previous version of the hydra had was ignoring jink saves on skimmers. This was huge as it is a 50%/33% increase in damage against moving skimmers.

ansacs wrote:There is also the fact that the HWS can at least become semi useful if you get tank hunter onto them. Tank hunter makes autocannons pretty good.

On the one hand "can", and on the other "pretty good"? Against fliers?

ansacs wrote:The problem is that HWS are not appropriately priced

Sure, if you believe this then the hydra is too expensive. I don't see why it is, though.

Guard already get lasgun and heavy bolter spam. I don't know if it should be known for hosting an everybody gets a free autocannon party.

ansacs wrote:and the hydra has to take 2 troops and an HQ choice to even be taken

I have never seen the carrier cost argument taken to this level of absurdity before.

Troops have no carrier cost whatsoever, while you have to include the price of troops into your HS slots?

No way.

ansacs wrote:Funny enough you could compare 2.5 hydras to a vendetta pretty fairly. Both need to be reserved if you plan to use them against flyers

Well, but the former is only true if the latter is.

And if you want to add in all the benefits of the vendetta, then you also need to add in the penalties, like being vulnerable to skyfire and interceptor, and MUST starting off the board, and making poorer use of cover, and never scoring, or being able to heavy flamer something off of an objective, etc. etc. etc. You can't just have it one way.

ansacs wrote:Some of the fliers are vital to remove.

Then having something that can cheaply and reliably take down fliers would be really useful, then. You know, like that 210 point unit that puts down 9 S7 hits per turn against fliers.

You sure the HWS is overcosted? I think they are a steal. T7, 2 wounds and 3+ armor save each - a squad of three can take more punishment than your average monstrous creature.

EDIT: never mind, they're not artillery, they are infantry. This really sucks.

Yeah, HWSs are just first blood fodder. The biggest problem with them is that you can't take more than 3 models in a squad, and when they're that insanely fragile, what winds up being 3 T3 wounds against S6+ is just begging to get wiped out.

Hydras, on the other hand, can throw down 9 HP of AV12. There are certainly things flimsier than that for 210 points.

And vehicles did get their extra-cheap camo netting now. It's not unreasonable to think of a small camouflaged AA bunker. At least, it wouldn't be if you needed an AA bunker, which you rather don't.

However keep in mind that HWS do have some redeeming value, in that they do relatively well behind cover (ruins, ADL, etc.)

Having a scoring unit for 75 points armed with 3 48" S7 AP4 Autocannons is arguably a far better troops choice than what you can get for these points as a SM player (5 space marines with bolters).

You still have 6 wounds and a 4+ cover save, and can use range to keep yourself safer. Plus you benefit quite a bit from Primaris Psykers making all 3 Autocannons twin-linked.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
But back to the original topic: I think a battery of 3 Hydras with Heavy Bolters is particularly nasty when prescienced by a primaris psyker.

A force multiplier that for example doesnt work with an ADL's quadgun.

I like hydras but I feel like the issue is that for the points I can get something else that is useful all the time and can make other things fill the role pretty easily.

That being said I am withholding judgement on a lot of things in the AM book and to a lesser extent the Tyranids book until we see the edition change over.

Hyrdas are already twin-linked.

And the redeeming value of HWS is that they're scoring, but you'd need more than that for the hydras. Like being always twin-linked, and having skyfire for free, and being vehicles.

Also you do get a minor discount, given that you have to compare three hydras to three autocannon HWSs and a heavy bolter HWS, the former costing 210 points, and the latter costing 300.

Of course, there's that weird barrier in the middle given their different target types. If you think that being able to handle fliers and skimmers is 2/3ds as valuable as handling everything else except fliers, then the two would be even.

If you think that it's even less valuable, like me, then, of course, the hydras would be a worse deal. If you really, really have to have AA, though, hydras are still going to look like a bargain.

HWS with auto cannons in a bunker are fantastic, makes their crappy T and armour value N/A and they still get good shooting (if they blow up the bunker you have bigger problems).

Also the hydra is a rather good AA unit, compare it to chaos mutalators who do on average 0 HP to a storm raven while a hydra does about 1 HP.

The main issue with Hydras is that they glance the most common fliers, their primary targets, on a 5+ and gain no bonus to penetration. You are better off taking Vendettas for your anti flier needs.

But you have to factor in vendettas being off the table, being more than twice the cost each. But naturally it depends on the rest of your army. If you have a lot of AV 12 then those hydras are going to be low on the list. However if you are running more infantry then the vendettas might be better simply because they wont be the only vehicle to shoot at.

I personally am not a fan of keeping the fire power off the table and would rather have it on. However that is based on my list. I would consider a skyshield at that point with hydras and wyverns on top.

No you don't, actually. Usually by the time the Hydra's prime targets are on the table your fliers will be too.

So, let's do some Math Hammer. We'll assume TL BS3 is mostly the same as BS4.

4*.66*.33=0.87 hullpoints lost in one turn of shooting for the Hydra.

3*.66*.66=1.3068 hullpoints lost per turn for the Vendetta. It's not that far off from having two Hydras. Plus the Vendetta can transport. And take out ground targets just as easily.

TheCustomLime wrote:Plus the Vendetta can transport. And take out ground targets just as easily.

If you add in the other benefits of the vendetta, you have to add in its drawbacks as well. It also doesn't set up a fair comparison when you further ignore the other benefits of a hydra.

Otherwise it's akin to saying that heavy bolter HWSs are way better than bolter boat punishers because HWSs are scoring and a punisher, while also S5, can be taken out by a single meltabomb. Of course, we both know that there is a lot more to the story than what's being presented.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:Plus the Vendetta can transport. And take out ground targets just as easily.

If you add in the other benefits of the vendetta, you have to add in its drawbacks as well. It also doesn't set up a fair comparison when you further ignore the other benefits of a hydra.

Otherwise it's akin to saying that heavy bolter HWSs are way better than bolter boat punishers because HWSs are scoring and a punisher, while also S5, can be taken out by a single meltabomb. Of course, we both know that there is a lot more to the story than what's being presented.

Hydras ignore jink saves, have higher damage potential and do not have to deal with being forced to move 18" each turn along a limited path. I guess they also can start shooting stuff first turn too but it is being done at BS1. If that is worth taking a pair of Hydras over the Vendetta to you then more power to you. Otherwise, I am not convinced that is a weapons platform that is optimal at defeating it's intended target with any efficiency. You have to sink in a lot points to get them to start working.

If only they had +1 S or something.

TheCustomLime wrote: I am not convinced that is a weapons platform that is optimal at defeating it's intended target with any efficiency.

Well, but you yourself showed that they were better than vendettas.

I mean, if your point is that it's not worth bothering with either for AA, then I'd agree, but I'm guessing that's not what you're saying.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:Plus the Vendetta can transport. And take out ground targets just as easily.

If you add in the other benefits of the vendetta, you have to add in its drawbacks as well. It also doesn't set up a fair comparison when you further ignore the other benefits of a hydra.

Otherwise it's akin to saying that heavy bolter HWSs are way better than bolter boat punishers because HWSs are scoring and a punisher, while also S5, can be taken out by a single meltabomb. Of course, we both know that there is a lot more to the story than what's being presented.

Hydras ignore jink saves, have higher damage potential and do not have to deal with being forced to move 18" each turn along a limited path. I guess they also can start shooting stuff first turn too but it is being done at BS1. If that is worth taking a pair of Hydras over the Vendetta to you then more power to you. Otherwise, I am not convinced that is a weapons platform that is optimal at defeating it's intended target with any efficiency. You have to sink in a lot points to get them to start working.

If only they had +1 S or something.

Hydras don't have ignores jink anymore.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote: I am not convinced that is a weapons platform that is optimal at defeating it's intended target with any efficiency.

Well, but you yourself showed that they were better than vendettas.

I mean, if your point is that it's not worth bothering with either for AA, then I'd agree, but I'm guessing that's not what you're saying.

You know what? You're right. They both aren't ideal for the task. I would take a Firestorm Redoubt for all AA needs.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote: I am not convinced that is a weapons platform that is optimal at defeating it's intended target with any efficiency.

Well, but you yourself showed that they were better than vendettas.

I mean, if your point is that it's not worth bothering with either for AA, then I'd agree, but I'm guessing that's not what you're saying.

You know what? You're right. They both aren't ideal for the task. I would take a Firestorm Redoubt for all AA needs.

Go for the Imperial strong point to have more quad-guns and Icarus lascannons than you'll ever need.

Or perhaps Sabre platforms.

Or, you know, don't bother with dedicated AA at all, and just use that huge pile of anti-tank/anti-MC weapons that you're already bringing to handle those occasional fliers that you'd rather be dead earlier than later.

I mean, that's the real problem. The hydra (not unlike the autocannons it carries) are just too much of a niche weapon. It would be like spending points and slots to take something that was really good at handling just multi-wound MEq. It's not to say that class of target doesn't exist, or can't be scary in the right circumstances, but odds are that by taking a balanced army you're already capable of handling that specific threat class without needing to spend extra points on specialists.

Scryers gaze is good for AA. Delpoy 2 objective 12" from each other in your deployment zone and stick a blob between them but not in 3". Now the blob has 6 chances to roll skyfire. It's not a sure thing but 2 or 3 heavy weapons with prescience, skyfire, and tank hunters will tear up a flyer.

I just giggled at the thought of my five lascannon blob getting skyfire.

There is always the FW hydra emplacement, (correct me if i am wrong with theses stats) at 50 points each, immobile, sky fire, intercept, AV 11 all round, 2 HP

new04db wrote:
There is always the FW hydra emplacement, (correct me if i am wrong with theses stats) at 50 points each, immobile, sky fire, intercept, AV 11 all round, 2 HP

It does not have interceptor anymore. That was just a temporary thing, likely due to the book being sent off for printing based on early speculation about the Hydra getting interceptor before GW made the 6th edition update FAQs final. It has since been reprinted with the previous codex Hydra guns. And I would expect it to be updated again with the current codex Hydra guns, as it is clearly meant to be the same weapon. Taking advantage of a temporary lack of an update is kind of TFG behavior.

Also, they're only AV 10, which makes them very easy to destroy. They're cheap for a reason.