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With the rumors of the impending rules change for Jink (Snap shots after electing to do a jink save for all units, not just fliers) re eldar jetbikes, jetseer council and tanks still going to be the way to go for Eldar or will it be moved to more infiltrate/deepstrike/outflank?

 Xerics wrote:
With the rumors of the impending rules change for Jink (Snap shots after electing to do a jink save for all units, not just fliers) re eldar jetbikes, jetseer council and tanks still going to be the way to go for Eldar or will it be moved to more infiltrate/deepstrike/outflank?

It's impossible to know what they way to go will be for ANY codex right now.

At the very least, it makes serpent-spam a little less invulnerable.

Glad my Heldrakes still have a 5+ invun, unless they change the daemon rule.

It makes sense, if you are going fast enough to avoid being hit, it should lower your own accuracy.

But that also means my CM on a bike can again tank for cents

I am sure people will stop playing certain units as if they were indestructable.

There is a pretty big balance gap between:
Regular vehicles
Jink vehicles
Jink vehicles that can take +1 to cover saves

Without it necessarily being reflected in their points cost.

apparently it would come with a change to snap shots. wait and see, wait and see

wtnind wrote:
There is a pretty big balance gap between:
Regular vehicles
Jink vehicles
Jink vehicles that can take +1 to cover saves

Without it necessarily being reflected in their points cost.

Dark Eldar boats just got better with their 5++, no need to jink.

Tau have a tough decision but markerlights make up for it. Disruption Pods turn that 4+ into a 3+ and markerlight support means you're firing at full BS or better with hammerheads.

I think this makes perfect sense. But maybe they will give the Skilled Rider USR the ability to fire at full BS even if electing to take a jink save.

Although Ork Bikers still get their exhaust cloud cover save!!

 Icculus wrote:
I think this makes perfect sense. But maybe they will give the Skilled Rider USR the ability to fire at full BS even if electing to take a jink save.

Although Ork Bikers still get their exhaust cloud cover save!!

and orks firing twinlinked big shootas as snapshots are only slightly less effect than at full Ork BS.



yay for speculation!

Personally, I'd rather they bring back 4th ed's "the model must end its movement phase at least so far from where it started" restriction. It's been two editions now that a skimmer can basically just shimmy in place, but LOOK HOW HARD THEY ARE TO SHOOT!!!

The move or shoot mechanic would be somewhat less ideal, but it would be nice to give them something that made jinking a decision rather than a just-because free save.

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Hardly a surprise, just makes jink save universal for flyers (which already have that rule) and everyone else.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

I find bikes getting it to be the craziest thing. With their massive point drop in 6th they get the jink save for free for just moving a half inch.

But the save is hardly the only part of the cost. There's the AV, the weapons options (which can be nasty), the kind of passengers it can carry and the fact that it's a transport at all. And that most skimmers are also fast, and they can move through impassable terrain and never take dangerous terrain tests if the player doesn't want them to.

Take all of that, and throw in their magic shield of nullification/twin-liking zapmaster, and yeah, I'd certainly argue that a wave serpent should cost twice as much as a chimera, even without being able to take a cover save with them just by scooting over a fraction of an inch in the movement phase.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Wave serpent.
Serpent shield with defense or offense option (both ridiculously good options), a st6 high rof gun to twinlink it, fast skimmer (which is massive by itself), holofields which can still combine with cover for a 3+ cover, transport capacity, dedicated transport, av12. 145pts.


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Landspeeder with dual mm. Ot is a sucicide unit anyway, has a 12" melta range, 24" st8 ap1 range, deepstrikes and is therefore very likely to destroy what it was sent into destroy in the first place. Still worth the cost without the jink. 80pts.


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Fire prism.
Extensive range. Incredibly strong AT gun. Can still get 3+ cover with holofields, which it usually will get with its range and no need to transport.

I wouldn't say jink saves are destroyed, but they appear to be more of a tactical tool now, rather than a given.

Bike armies will be hit quite hard by this, as will wave serpents.

Of course this is speculation, as there may be changes to snapfire. However thus far it seems reasonable, white scar bikes getting a 4+ cover save when sitting in the middle of a field is a but much.

However on the other side of things, weaker skimmers like the landspeeder will suffer unnecessarily.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Annihilation Barges. You are now required to put them behind terrain just as usual vehicles.

Also, Ghost Arks now got a 4++

Hmmm, well still just a rumour but I think that's kind of silly.

Wave Serpent spam breaks games so instead of nerfing the serpent shield we'll mess with jink saves? Give an inch, take a mile much anyone?

Seems almost like true blue, dyed in the wool democracy to me!

Its not going to affect serps too much either as most eldar players use them to hang back (behind cover) and pour on the firepower anyway (unless transporting fragons or wraiths), and only advance them upfield to objective capture once threats to them have been dealt with. So they will still get a 3+ with holofields anyhow.

 agnosto wrote:
Dark Eldar boats just got better with their 5++, no need to jink.

Tau have a tough decision but markerlights make up for it. Disruption Pods turn that 4+ into a 3+ and markerlight support means you're firing at full BS or better with hammerheads.

Or get Sensor Spines and park inside terrain

Poly Ranger wrote:
Its not going to affect serps too much either as most eldar players use them to hang back (behind cover) and pour on the firepower anyway (unless transporting fragons or wraiths), and only advance them upfield to objective capture once threats to them have been dealt with. So they will still get a 3+ with holofields anyhow.

It means they will be more limited in their movement though, as they will have to use cover more. They lose 50% durability when then are shot out in the open with weapons that do not usually ignore cover, this will stop them controlling the board so easily.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Wave Serpents

Good balancing I think, then change snap to allow blasts to be shot only auto scatter d6 and on miss scatter 3d6.

Templates I am just not sure how to balance with snap.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Wave Serpents

Ok this is how people run wave serpents

Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon Upgrade

The above total is 145 points. Eldar definitely pay for our transports. Everyone says they are undercosted but really they aren't. If the shield gets discharged then you go for that penetrating hit to blow it up as they don't have the 2+ reduce pen to glance effect when shield has been used as a weapon. I don't know how much a chimera costs but I feel like getting a "free" jink save for how many points it costs for our only transport (meaning we have to buy another unit to even have access) is acceptable.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Wave Serpent - hugely OP

145pts for a very powerful vehicle that is not only durable but deadily against a variety of enemies - especially its opposite numbers.

yes Eldar should have more choice in DTransports

The whole we have to buy scoring and not ieffective units to use them is very weak............

Everyone says they are undercosted but really they aren't.

So everyone but Eldar players who want to spam them?

 Xerics wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
-because free save.

That save is part of their cost. It's not free. Find me a non-flying skimmer that isn't outrageously overpriced without a save.

Wave Serpents

Ok this is how people run wave serpents

Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon Upgrade

The above total is 145 points. Eldar definitely pay for our transports. Everyone says they are undercosted but really they aren't. If the shield gets discharged then you go for that penetrating hit to blow it up as they don't have the 2+ reduce pen to glance effect when shield has been used as a weapon. I don't know how much a chimera costs but I feel like getting a "free" jink save for how many points it costs for our only transport (meaning we have to buy another unit to even have access) is acceptable.

You relise most other armies have to pay a lot more for both durability and firepower, right? and how most of those choices take up a slot?

I pay 115 pts for an open-topped transport with terrible, borderline useless guns. Please, tell me how bad and undercosted your Wave Serpent is.

Transports should always be transports. (Dedicated) Transports should never have advanced weaponry that turns them into mobile battle platforms. Let alone that ridiculously OP shield.

Wave serpents are currently under costed. There is a reason almost all competitive eldar lists run them (and more often than not in some areas build entire armies based around them).
Serpents cost 80 points more than a Chima (About 2.3 Chimera)
Compared to a Chimera they have:
- More than 3x the damage output (When you consider amount of fire, + TL weapons)
- Fast skimmer movement (move 12 and still lay down fire. Fly over terrain.
- 4+ Cover save anywhere
- Ignore Penetrating hits on a 2+
- 2 better side armour

So much more damage, far higher survivability, and much more mobility. This is worth more than 80 points imo.

Even in the hands of new player, wave serpents can be challenging. In the hands of an experienced player they are a royal pain and worth their weight in gold.

Losing jink It might not be the nerf the waveserpent needs the most, but it is a nerf non the less, and this makes me happy.

If the wave serpent was avaliable for ANY other army as a dedicated transport they would be taken over anything else. That by definition makes them undercosted in comparison to other dedicated transports.
The fact that you consider the units inside a 'tax' yet many eldar players still spam them shows this even further.
They have range, good strength, high rof, twin linked, (or almost immune to pens), fast, skimmer, transport, av12 front and side, 3+ cover behind cover, takes no FOC slot.
To put that in context, BA preds pay 30 to 40 pts just for fast.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I pay 115 pts for an open-topped transport with terrible, borderline useless guns. Please, tell me how bad and undercosted your Wave Serpent is.

Transports should always be transports. (Dedicated) Transports should never have advanced weaponry that turns them into mobile battle platforms. Let alone that ridiculously OP shield.

Don't you play Necrons? All yours are fliers... Please tell me how bad your non-open topped fliers are with their tesla weaponry.


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 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wave serpents are currently under costed. There is a reason almost all competitive eldar lists run them (and more often than not in some areas build entire armies based around them).
Serpents cost 80 points more than a Chima (About 2.3 Chimera)
Compared to a Chimera they have:
- More than 3x the damage output (When you consider amount of fire, + TL weapons)
- Fast skimmer movement (move 12 and still lay down fire. Fly over terrain.
- 4+ Cover save anywhere
- Ignore Penetrating hits on a 2+
- 2 better side armour

So much more damage, far higher survivability, and much more mobility. This is worth more than 80 points imo.

Even in the hands of new player, wave serpents can be challenging. In the hands of an experienced player they are a royal pain and worth their weight in gold.

Losing jink It might not be the nerf the waveserpent needs the most, but it is a nerf non the less, and this makes me happy.

Wrong. They only get that 2+ reduction to glances IF they don't fire their shields. You can't count it both as shooting and defending.