Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
All I know is if that the Jink save rumor is correct, and Snap Shots are still the same as now, my Ravenwing army probably won't see much use.

Bike armies in general are probably going to start seeing some more dust. (Again, if it's true.)

 Xerics wrote:
Please read the post right above yours.

i see that, and i agree i did the same thing.

off topic question, you in the AF? i lived in rapid city a few years
when i was in. cool town, too cold for me though lol.

 Xerics wrote:


Ok this is how people run wave serpents

Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon Upgrade

The above total is 145 points. Eldar definitely pay for our transports. Everyone says they are undercosted but really they aren't. If the shield gets discharged then you go for that penetrating hit to blow it up as they don't have the 2+ reduce pen to glance effect when shield has been used as a weapon. I don't know how much a chimera costs but I feel like getting a "free" jink save for how many points it costs for our only transport (meaning we have to buy another unit to even have access) is acceptable.

What changed?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
All I know is if that the Jink save rumor is correct, and Snap Shots are still the same as now, my Ravenwing army probably won't see much use.

They will be toned down certainly. DA still have the PFG however, so it won't be the end of the world. I think bike armies did need a slight nerf. Will this be too far? I'm not sure.

Will this cause a rise in the number of players using Iron Hands bikes? The white scars jink advantage won't have as much impact, but bikes almost always get their FNP save.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
All I know is if that the Jink save rumor is correct, and Snap Shots are still the same as now, my Ravenwing army probably won't see much use.

They will be toned down certainly. DA still have the PFG however, so it won't be the end of the world. I think bike armies did need a slight nerf. Will this be too far? I'm not sure.

Will this cause a rise in the number of players using Iron Hands bikes? The white scars jink advantage won't have as much impact, but bikes almost always get their FNP save.

WS get hit & run too which is arguably just as good (or better if you build you army to support it).

 Xerics wrote:
. Units cannot start inside of it at the start of the game.

Just so you know, this has no basis in the rules. Perhaps you should reread the deployment rules?

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
All I know is if that the Jink save rumor is correct, and Snap Shots are still the same as now, my Ravenwing army probably won't see much use.

They will be toned down certainly. DA still have the PFG however, so it won't be the end of the world. I think bike armies did need a slight nerf. Will this be too far? I'm not sure.

Will this cause a rise in the number of players using Iron Hands bikes? The white scars jink advantage won't have as much impact, but bikes almost always get their FNP save.

WS get hit & run too which is arguably just as good (or better if you build you army to support it).

No argument about this from me. WS chapter tactics and Khan still have definite advantages.

Jimsolo wrote:I like that they can weave back and forth, ending near their starting point, and still get the Jink.

Sure, but then it would only make sense to reduce their shooting to snap firing. For most things, especially in the world of 40k, where everyone uses iron sights, making yourself harder to hit means making it harder to hit something else yourself.

Jimsolo wrote:And Ailaros, I think you're wrong. Sorry, but the Raider is not the god-machine you seem to imply.

The difference between a front armor of 12 and one of 10 is gigantic. Simply huge.

Oh yeah, they've got flimsy front armor, no doubt about it, and my point wasn't that they're the best transport in the entire game.

The point is more that it's really easy for people to see their own stuff as crappy because they see it killed all the time, and often don't need to attempt to return the favor (especially DE, how often does a DE player play against another DE player, especially relative to, say, space marines).

It is really easy to get sucked into their one main problem and cause you to overlook the many, many benefits. It's easy to see "I don't use" as "not very good" and "hasn't worked for me yet" as "is unworkable".

Really, if anything, it's the other way around. Spend some time with a slow, treaded vehicle that doesn't get all the stuff raiders do. You'd enjoy the likely better armor, but you would immediately miss everything else. There's a reason you see roughly 0 rhino SM armies while practically all DE players pack in raiders and practically all eldar players rush to wave serpent spam. Fast skimmer transports are really good.

I mean, do a gut check. Would you take rhinos in your DE army? They have better armor, after all, and they lose the extra flimsiness of open topped, and they're even much cheaper than a raider to boot. Would you really take rhinos over venoms?

... no. Because raiders are great, and venoms are also pretty good, and rhinos are just awful, despite being more durable.

Jimsolo wrote:An IG army doesn't benefit hugely from having an Assault Vehicle for its troops (or for the majority of the army, really), so it's a little disingenuous to act like it's such a huge discrepancy.

If I could put bullgryn in a raider, oh you better believe that I would in a heartbeat. Well, and they didn't just downgrade to "extra bulky"

If anything, though, it cuts the other direction too. Being an assault vehicle is extra good for DE because they DO have lots of good CC options.

Jimsolo wrote:The chimera is actually one of the better transports available. (I'd trade my Rhinos out of the SM codex for them in a heartbeat.)

Yeah, a chimera is a fine transport. It's certainly not the flimsiest transport, but neither is it most survivable, and it's tied for the slowest transport in the game, and that AV12 sits right next to that 10/10. Its reasonably cheap, but it also lacks in firepower, being stuck with only anti-infantry weapons with no upgrade options to lance weapons/melta/etc. Its upgrades are cheap, but they're also pretty crappy (as in, you pay points to very poorly emulate some of the things skimmers can already do). And there are a couple of cute special rules, like amphibious and command aura.

They're fine, but they're not exactly extra awesome. All they do is provide some cover for some very squishy models, but that's sort of it. Nothing special.

Of course I would upgrade from rhinos to chimeras in a heartbeat as well, but that's not because chimeras are awesomesauce so much as rhinos are so extremely, excessively, awfully terrible that I wouldn't even take them if they were free. Just because a rhino is bad, though, doesn't elevate chimeras up to the level of drop pods or land raiders or wave serpents.

Jimsolo wrote:Bike armies in general are probably going to start seeing some more dust. (Again, if it's true.)

Yeah, I'm still thinking about bikes on this one. They'll be hurt, of course, but I don't know if they're going to become unplayably awful. I mean, bikes still have a lot of other advantages other than jink.

Yeah, I'm still thinking about bikes on this one. They'll be hurt, of course, but I don't know if they're going to become unplayably awful. I mean, bikes still have a lot of other advantages other than jink.

I agree. I play bike armies, and I wouldn't mind losing jink, as they are slightly too good at the moment.

At the same time however, I hope they will attempt to bring the other powerful armies into line. I don't want the bikes to become shelved.

 Ailaros wrote:
The point is more that it's really easy for people to see their own stuff as crappy because they see it killed all the time, and often don't need to attempt to return the favor (especially DE, how often does a DE player play against another DE player, especially relative to, say, space marines).

It is really easy to get sucked into their one main problem and cause you to overlook the many, many benefits. It's easy to see "I don't use" as "not very good" and "hasn't worked for me yet" as "is unworkable".

Really, if anything, it's the other way around. Spend some time with a slow, treaded vehicle that doesn't get all the stuff raiders do. You'd enjoy the likely better armor, but you would immediately miss everything else. There's a reason you see roughly 0 rhino SM armies while practically all DE players pack in raiders and practically all eldar players rush to wave serpent spam. Fast skimmer transports are really good.

I mean, do a gut check. Would you take rhinos in your DE army? They have better armor, after all, and they lose the extra flimsiness of open topped, and they're even much cheaper than a raider to boot. Would you really take rhinos over venoms?

... no. Because raiders are great, and venoms are also pretty good, and rhinos are just awful, despite being more durable.

Okay, I can definitely see your point on that one. I have had a limited experience with Chimeras, and wasn't impressed with them. (In point of fact, my Henchmen no longer use them, in favor of just hunkering down behind some cover.)

However, I think that the Imperial Guard get more use out of the limited fire points on a Chimera than the DE do on the open-topped nature of the Raider. (Venoms, on the other hand, see small Trueborn squads used to great effect with that rule. But that's about it.)

Jimsolo wrote:An IG army doesn't benefit hugely from having an Assault Vehicle for its troops (or for the majority of the army, really), so it's a little disingenuous to act like it's such a huge discrepancy.

If I could put bullgryn in a raider, oh you better believe that I would in a heartbeat. Well, and they didn't just downgrade to "extra bulky"

If anything, though, it cuts the other direction too. Being an assault vehicle is extra good for DE because they DO have lots of good CC options.

Two? Two-and-a-half? I count Incubi, Grotesques, and maybe Wracks. And the conventional tactical manual on Wracks only views assault as something to do with them once you can no longer run around Liquifier Gunning everyone. Obviously not counting the CC units that can't take a Raider. (Hellions, MCs, etc.)

And while I'm sure you would put Bullgryn in a raider, which would you rather have for your IG veteran troopers? It seems like the Chimera would be the better choice to me...

Jimsolo wrote:The chimera is actually one of the better transports available. (I'd trade my Rhinos out of the SM codex for them in a heartbeat.)

Yeah, a chimera is a fine transport. It's certainly not the flimsiest transport, but neither is it most survivable, and it's tied for the slowest transport in the game, and that AV12 sits right next to that 10/10. Its reasonably cheap, but it also lacks in firepower, being stuck with only anti-infantry weapons with no upgrade options to lance weapons/melta/etc. Its upgrades are cheap, but they're also pretty crappy (as in, you pay points to very poorly emulate some of the things skimmers can already do). And there are a couple of cute special rules, like amphibious and command aura.

I'm not saying the Raider is bad (that's ludicrous) but it's got its downsides too. No anti-infantry weapons, for one. When it comes to anti-infantry firepower, I'm pretty sure a squad of troops plus their chimera is putting out a fierce amount of dakka. I don't do intense mathhammer, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the IG slightly ahead for the points. I certainly don't think there's enough of a discrepancy to justify nerfing the Raider so hard that the crew will (essentially) never again fire anything but Snap Shots.

They're fine, but they're not exactly extra awesome. All they do is provide some cover for some very squishy models, but that's sort of it. Nothing special.

Of course I would upgrade from rhinos to chimeras in a heartbeat as well, but that's not because chimeras are awesomesauce so much as rhinos are so extremely, excessively, awfully terrible that I wouldn't even take them if they were free. Just because a rhino is bad, though, doesn't elevate chimeras up to the level of drop pods or land raiders or wave serpents.

I don't think those are fair comparisons. Despite both being Dedicated Transports, Drop Pods are so utterly different that any comparison is going to break down when you throw them in the mix. And of course Chimeras don't measure up to Land Raiders. (Neither do skimmer Raiders!) The Land Raider costs over four times as much! And as has already been established, the Wave Serpent is overpowered by admission. If the problem really comes down to the Wave Serpent being overpowered (and it does, in my opinion) then it doesn't make any sense to take the nerf-bat to every army that uses Jink just to fix one broken vehicle.

Jimsolo wrote:Bike armies in general are probably going to start seeing some more dust. (Again, if it's true.)

Yeah, I'm still thinking about bikes on this one. They'll be hurt, of course, but I don't know if they're going to become unplayably awful. I mean, bikes still have a lot of other advantages other than jink.

Yeah, but I think putting the Snap Shot whammy on them (or taking Jink away) would severely impact their utility, and they weren't far-and-away the best choices as they were.

Jimsolo wrote:However, I think that the Imperial Guard get more use out of the limited fire points on a Chimera than the DE do on the open-topped nature of the Raider.

How is two better than ten?

Jimsolo wrote:which would you rather have for your IG veteran troopers? It seems like the Chimera would be the better choice to me...

Honestly, I'd take the raider.

Being able to shoot all three plasma guns, plasma pistol and lascannon out the top at the same time would be good, and the defensive nature of vet special weapons would be greatly improved by a fast skimmer. I'd change tactics a bit, of course, starting them in reserves, but it would still be better.

Plus, being able to deepstrike a vet squad? Yes, please.

Jimsolo wrote:No anti-infantry weapons, for one.

Yeah, but a pair of heavy bolters isn't exactly good anti-infantry. Plus, a raider full of warriors is going to be MUCH better against infantry targets (especially with splinter racks) than a chimera full of veterans.

Plus, anti-infantry is hardly something that either army lacks. You don't really need that much more.

Once again, do a gut check. Let's say you could swap out the dark lance for a twin-linked splinter cannon on a raider. Would you do it? Probably not.

Jimsolo wrote:The Land Raider costs over four times as much!

Yeah, but I was accounting for that. Land raiders are awesome, even at their big price tag.

Jimsolo wrote:. If the problem really comes down to the Wave Serpent being overpowered (and it does, in my opinion)

Well, and that's my point. It's not just wave serpents. All fast skimmer transports are of outsized utility for their cost.

Because of that huge pile of stuff that they get from being both skimmers and fast.

You can build strong lists out of spamming wave serpents and raiders. Meanwhile, razorbacks and chimeras are vehicles that you bring as few of as you can get away with while spending the rest of your points on better stuff. I don't think I've ever seen a list that was just infantry units and chimeras, or just infantry units and rhinos.

Jimsolo wrote:Yeah, but I think putting the Snap Shot whammy on them (or taking Jink away) would severely impact their utility

... when they'd be jinking.

Bikes are fast enough to be able to dart from cover to cover. Jink only helps curb some of the damage when you drive your bikes straight at your opponent out in the open. That's not the only way to use bikes.

 Ailaros wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:However, I think that the Imperial Guard get more use out of the limited fire points on a Chimera than the DE do on the open-topped nature of the Raider.

How is two better than ten?

The IG troops units have access to better weapons than their Dark Eldar equivalents. One big nasty, assuming we didn't bring an HQ. The IG vets, on the other hand, can take 3 plasma guns, not to mention a heavy weapon and a special pistol on the sergeant.

And that's not even counting the (four? six?) side mounted lasgun turret/port things that chimeras have. And didn't those bad boys essentially get split fire for free now? Forgive me, haven't read the new 'dex.

Jimsolo wrote:which would you rather have for your IG veteran troopers? It seems like the Chimera would be the better choice to me...

Honestly, I'd take the raider.

Being able to shoot all three plasma guns, plasma pistol and lascannon out the top at the same time would be good, and the defensive nature of vet special weapons would be greatly improved by a fast skimmer. I'd change tactics a bit, of course, starting them in reserves, but it would still be better.

Plus, being able to deepstrike a vet squad? Yes, please.

Do you play Dark Eldar? If so, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If not, I think you might be on the reverse side of the 'greener pastures' coin you were talking about earlier.

Jimsolo wrote:No anti-infantry weapons, for one.

Yeah, but a pair of heavy bolters isn't exactly good anti-infantry. Plus, a raider full of warriors is going to be MUCH better against infantry targets (especially with splinter racks) than a chimera full of veterans.

Plus, anti-infantry is hardly something that either army lacks. You don't really need that much more.

No, but it still has to be included, and letting the basic troops choices do the heavy lifting on the anti-infantry front seems like a wise idea to me. And while a single heavy bolter may not be ideal, a heavy bolter AND a multilaser on a 12 man tank for 55 points is pretty sweet. (Again, feel free to correct me for edition changes.)

Once again, do a gut check. Let's say you could swap out the dark lance for a twin-linked splinter cannon on a raider. Would you do it? Probably not.

Hell no. Because the Dark Eldar have a shortage of anti-vehicle whatnots. The Guard, on the other hand, are almost never caught without either melta-happy veterans (or special weapon teams) -- usually in chimeras -- or the army's signature piece, the Leman Russ. Between their tank squadrons and their artillery squadrons, the Guard can shred vehicles like they were toilet paper. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, struggle to make up that ground

Jimsolo wrote:The Land Raider costs over four times as much!

Yeah, but I was accounting for that. Land raiders are awesome, even at their big price tag.

Hell yeah they are! (I wish I had a Space Marine player here to high-five. )

Jimsolo wrote:. If the problem really comes down to the Wave Serpent being overpowered (and it does, in my opinion)

Well, and that's my point. It's not just wave serpents. All fast skimmer transports are of outsized utility for their cost.

Because of that huge pile of stuff that they get from being both skimmers and fast.

You can build strong lists out of spamming wave serpents and raiders. Meanwhile, razorbacks and chimeras are vehicles that you bring as few of as you can get away with while spending the rest of your points on better stuff. I don't think I've ever seen a list that was just infantry units and chimeras, or just infantry units and rhinos.

Except I have seen rhino spam. And lost to it as a Dark Eldar player, in fact. (Not saying the rhinos were responsible--don't get that impression! It was the first time I'd played a mechanized list with my elves and I didn't have the experience to pull out a victory.) And razorspam is CERTAINLY still alive and well. In point of fact, with the changes to Combat Squads, I'd be shocked if we don't start seeing more rhinos creeping back into competitive play before the Space Marine codex has run its course.

I've also seen lists that were nothing but infantry and chimeras. I've also lost to one of those. (I was playing a gimmick list, though, so once again I'm not going to try and call that an actual tactical experience.) I see that sort of list (all infantry in chimeras or almost all of it composed of that) frequently from a couple of my opponents, actually, and while I've never lost to them, I've never lost a real game to ANY Imperial Guard list.

Jimsolo wrote:Yeah, but I think putting the Snap Shot whammy on them (or taking Jink away) would severely impact their utility

... when they'd be jinking.

Bikes are fast enough to be able to dart from cover to cover. Jink only helps curb some of the damage when you drive your bikes straight at your opponent out in the open. That's not the only way to use bikes.

This is one of those difference in experiences things, I guess. We have four players here who play bike armies of one type or another, and if there's a unifying experience I took away from my years of playing with them, it's that bikes used as mobile shooting platforms tend to do two things extraordinarily well: suck and die. The most effective strategy I've seen them used for has been a blitz rush, using their greater speed (and cover save) to get them up close to overwhelm the enemy before they knew what was happening. Guns are just there to soften the melee targets up before the lightning (or power) claws/klaws get there. Or to pot away at targets the bikes can't hurt in CC.

But If BA pay 30-40pts per vehicle for FAST. Then surely a FAST SKIMMER should come in at at least +50-60pts. That's if we assume game balance of course and everybody pays the same for the same advantages amd upgrades, if not, then a skimmer such as the serp is automatically undercosted in comparison.
So if we take fast skimmer off say, a serp, it becomes 85pts for an av12 side and front, trans cap10, high rof, good strength, serp shield benefits, holofields, shuri cannon. Only 20pts more than a naked chimera for all those benefits.

Rumor I heard is jink is improved to 4+, but snap fire only after jinking.

That's not going to effext gjb/windriders. They tend to hide out of los until they perform a last minute objective snatch. If anything the 4+ is better.

Would you seriously hide two of your most versatile and mobile combat squads of - say 2* 6 jetbikes with two cannons - until the end of the battle? The jink changes 1. are a massive nerf for all bikers and it hits DE the most and 2. fuel the playstyle you mentioned way further.

Well, they do need a nerf compared to 'normal' infantry and jumppacks.

Suite wrote:
Would you seriously hide two of your most versatile and mobile combat squads of - say 2* 6 jetbikes with two cannons - until the end of the battle? The jink changes 1. are a massive nerf for all bikers and it hits DE the most and 2. fuel the playstyle you mentioned way further.

Not a single thing in this statement makes sense. People don't use 6 man Jetbike units with Cannons (not that they are terrible units by any means), you run 3 man units, hide them in reserve and zoom to objectives late. For them the 4+ cover is a buff since they don't care about shooting.

For Marine Bike lists I don't think its a huge issue, the double Chapter Masters tanking at the front don't need cover and T5 and 3+ saves keep you pretty safe from small arms. The main reason the top bike lists are so strong (and by that I mean White Scars) is because they can be played very aggressively, pushing straight into assault turn 2ish (where snapping doesn't matter) and then completely control the game because they have Hit and Run (which if you had to pick a single special rule is definitely their biggest advantage).

Dark Eldar get hit the least by this by far. Their skimmers can all get 5+ invulnerables anyway (which were already a good idea with the amount of Ignores Cover around) and its a buff for their Jetbikes because they don't shoot people anyway, you can now zoom around and do slash attacks and you might actually live afterwards.

I agree that this is a nerf to Serpents, but its not the nerf they needed. While it does make them easier to kill most of the time it does mean that if they are in survival mode they are basically untouchable - a 3+ cover save and ignoring pens on a 2+, so if people adapt and use them differently (i.e more as transports rather than as gunboats) they will still do fine. Serpents are interesting because imo they aren't as overpowered as people make them out. The Shield weapon is the only thing that makes them broken, for example if you dropped the Shield down to range 6" then to me they would be slightly overpriced - they would have battle tank price tags but without the firepower to back it up.

Screamers are also better. They never shoot so they basicly have a 4+ cover at all times now.

Powerguy wrote:
I agree that this is a nerf to Serpents,

Is it, though? If snap fire turns out to be -2BS as it is rumoured to be, I'd say the trade-off is a pretty decent one (from the Serpent player's perspective).

3+ jink saves for holofield serpents?

Like my wife's serpents needed to be harder to kill.

 Kain wrote:
3+ jink saves for holofield serpents?

Like my wife's serpents needed to be harder to kill.

with a possible 2+ if you flat out(?) or have the stealth warlord trait.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
3+ jink saves for holofield serpents?

Like my wife's serpents needed to be harder to kill.

with a possible 2+ if you flat out(?) or have the stealth warlord trait.

Gonna need more hive guard.

TL tesla weapons are not going to be hurt much shooting at bs2 from a jink. Annihilation barges would actually be in better shape with a 4+ jink that drops them to bs2, and the same goes for night scythes.

i imagine tau skimmers are gonna be hurting from this.

I'll probably still field the Skyray, probably wont even think about it when i bring a Hammerhead, but my piranhas are probably done for as their 12" speed being able to get them into shooting range as well as cock-block a unit from assaulting me is the main reason i bring them (bonus drone squad too)

Well, I never saw anywhere else anything about this, but IF this is true...

God I hope the disruption pod gets changed or tau armor turns really unplayable.
The devil is bad enough as it is, the piranha has nothing BUT cheap skimmer status for it (jinx included), the the skyrays and hammerheads rely on the defensive power of Dpod+jinx to live...
If I have to effectivly sacrifice shooting for jinxing, my tanks would turn from heavy-duty lifters (in form of a hard to remove threats) into cowardly glass cannons, where every shot aimed at them disables them for the next turn even if it didn't connect, and considering I run 2-3 hammers, it will spell doom for my army, and only push tau further to the clutches of the boring broadside gunlines...

My thoughts exactly.

Piranhas are easily the best vehicle of its type, since they technically cost 16pts for an AV11/10/10 fast skimmer with just enough firepower to be a threat to troops, and durable enough for common infantry guns to be ineffective. This forces an assault, thus an extra turn for my own guys before getting assaulted, or forces big guns to clear them up....which my opponents will never want to do since i usually field a hammerhead and skyray as well.

Hammerhead/skyrays are only comparable to AV14 because of the 4+ jink. I really dont want to play hide-and-seek with a massive TANK because the reason it was good to bring got neutered thanks to another codex causing the nerf to the USR.

This is seriously going to hurt my use of Piranha's and maybe even Tetra's. I don't see it altering my use of Skyray's, I generally only bring 1 for AA work, and it usually hangs out in some ruins with a D-pod and sensor spines.

It's going to make me seriously rethink using Hammerheads, but it may make me bring in Devilfish again, I think they are overpriced for what they bring, but jinking with a D-pod may make them survivable enough to get a squad up to grab objectives.

 Sihdhartha wrote:
This is seriously going to hurt my use of Piranha's and maybe even Tetra's. I don't see it altering my use of Skyray's, I generally only bring 1 for AA work, and it usually hangs out in some ruins with a D-pod and sensor spines.

It's going to make me seriously rethink using Hammerheads, but it may make me bring in Devilfish again, I think they are overpriced for what they bring, but jinking with a D-pod may make them survivable enough to get a squad up to grab objectives.

GOD I DIDNT EVEN THINK ABOUT MY POOR TETRAS

I use Predators. AV13 with no jink.

Sup.

Im so happy to see this. No longer will I have to watch as eldar players move and inch, claim a stupid save and fight at full efficiency! Now they can simply choose to live and do nothing, or choose to die and hurt me.

So glad. I like it when rules force choices on players. Choose between two benefits.