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How about we ignore wave serpents for this conversation?

And on a side note - its not your only transport. I know most eldar players have forgotten about the humble falcon... but it exists - I promise :-p!

Poly Ranger wrote:
And on a side note - its not your only transport. I know most eldar players have forgotten about the humble falcon... but it exists - I promise :-p!

Falcon is not a transport. It is a HS tank that happens to have transport capability but it can't be taken as a transport. Units cannot start inside of it at the start of the game.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I pay 115 pts for an open-topped transport with terrible, borderline useless guns. Please, tell me how bad and undercosted your Wave Serpent is.

Transports should always be transports. (Dedicated) Transports should never have advanced weaponry that turns them into mobile battle platforms. Let alone that ridiculously OP shield.

Like necron breadplanes?
The normal one the bring can house a nasty gun, but the dedicated cannot and is more annoying as feth than anything else.

I hate eldar with a passion. And this is coming from a Tau player lol.
Wave serpents are so undercosted it isnt even funny. Anyone who argues they arent doesnt know the value of what they have apparently. My Devilfish are ~10-15pts cheaper depending on loadout and are NO WHERE NEAR as strong or durable. How does 10-15pts justify two nasty ROF guns with crazy range and anti-pen shieldings that are on a 2+ chance? It doesnt.

 Xerics wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I pay 115 pts for an open-topped transport with terrible, borderline useless guns. Please, tell me how bad and undercosted your Wave Serpent is.

Transports should always be transports. (Dedicated) Transports should never have advanced weaponry that turns them into mobile battle platforms. Let alone that ridiculously OP shield.

Don't you play Necrons? All yours are fliers... Please tell me how bad your non-open topped fliers are with their tesla weaponry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wave serpents are currently under costed. There is a reason almost all competitive eldar lists run them (and more often than not in some areas build entire armies based around them).
Serpents cost 80 points more than a Chima (About 2.3 Chimera)
Compared to a Chimera they have:
- More than 3x the damage output (When you consider amount of fire, + TL weapons)
- Fast skimmer movement (move 12 and still lay down fire. Fly over terrain.
- 4+ Cover save anywhere
- Ignore Penetrating hits on a 2+
- 2 better side armour

So much more damage, far higher survivability, and much more mobility. This is worth more than 80 points imo.

Even in the hands of new player, wave serpents can be challenging. In the hands of an experienced player they are a royal pain and worth their weight in gold.

Losing jink It might not be the nerf the waveserpent needs the most, but it is a nerf non the less, and this makes me happy.

Wrong. They only get that 2+ reduction to glances IF they don't fire their shields. You can't count it both as shooting and defending.

Yes and you have to decide which to use tactically. Dont moan that you can't have both. Having the choice is stupendous!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
And on a side note - its not your only transport. I know most eldar players have forgotten about the humble falcon... but it exists - I promise :-p!

Falcon is not a transport. It is a HS tank that happens to have transport capability but it can't be taken as a transport. Units cannot start inside of it at the start of the game.

I know but it still has transport capability. Therefore is actually a transport whether a tank or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hang on... units cant start inside it? Then how do ravens/valkaries/vendettas transport units?

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I pay 115 pts for an open-topped transport with terrible, borderline useless guns. Please, tell me how bad and undercosted your Wave Serpent is.

Transports should always be transports. (Dedicated) Transports should never have advanced weaponry that turns them into mobile battle platforms. Let alone that ridiculously OP shield.

Don't you play Necrons? All yours are fliers... Please tell me how bad your non-open topped fliers are with their tesla weaponry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wave serpents are currently under costed. There is a reason almost all competitive eldar lists run them (and more often than not in some areas build entire armies based around them).
Serpents cost 80 points more than a Chima (About 2.3 Chimera)
Compared to a Chimera they have:
- More than 3x the damage output (When you consider amount of fire, + TL weapons)
- Fast skimmer movement (move 12 and still lay down fire. Fly over terrain.
- 4+ Cover save anywhere
- Ignore Penetrating hits on a 2+
- 2 better side armour

So much more damage, far higher survivability, and much more mobility. This is worth more than 80 points imo.

Even in the hands of new player, wave serpents can be challenging. In the hands of an experienced player they are a royal pain and worth their weight in gold.

Losing jink It might not be the nerf the waveserpent needs the most, but it is a nerf non the less, and this makes me happy.

Wrong. They only get that 2+ reduction to glances IF they don't fire their shields. You can't count it both as shooting and defending.

Yes and you have to decide which to use tactically. Dont moan that you can't have both. Having the choice is stupendous!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
And on a side note - its not your only transport. I know most eldar players have forgotten about the humble falcon... but it exists - I promise :-p!

Falcon is not a transport. It is a HS tank that happens to have transport capability but it can't be taken as a transport. Units cannot start inside of it at the start of the game.

I know but it still has transport capability. Therefore is actually a transport whether a tank or not.

It still takes up a Heavy Support slot. and only has a 6 model transport capacity, costs more, and doesn't have the survivability of the serpent. The Falcon may as well not even exist seeing as how the serpent does its job better. The falcon does get the Pulse Laser but it really isn't that good. If you want something to shoot at other tanks with just get a crimson hunter. For only a few more points you get 2x the firepower.

I agree. Totally. Im just pointing out it is there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was a side note after all. Not meant to derail the point that the serpent is insanely awesome for its points :-p.

Excuse me? You get the exact benefits I stated. So I am in no way wrong.
The eldar player also gets to chose when to shoot the shield, so if they need it for defense, they don't need to fire it. They still get their 6-7 str 6 hits. Eldar player still has the advantage.

Serpents are very powerful, this has been confirmed by so many people for so many reasons that by now it is basically a fact.
You won't find many (if any) people to support you. I hope this in some way makes you realize that your point here is wrong.

 Xerics wrote:


Don't you play Necrons? All yours are fliers... Please tell me how bad your non-open topped fliers are with their tesla weaponry.

Yes, Ghost Arks are flyers, correct

darkcloak wrote:
Hmmm, well still just a rumour but I think that's kind of silly.

Wave Serpent spam breaks games so instead of nerfing the serpent shield we'll mess with jink saves? Give an inch, take a mile much anyone?

Seems almost like true blue, dyed in the wool democracy to me!

It is silly to debate how rumars are going to influence tactics when we dont know the full effect of the rumors.

But I also agree that trying to nerf OP wave serpents by changing skimmers isn't the grandest of plans.

DE have three fast skimmers, the best of them, the venom with its OP 12 shot posion cannons has a built in 5++ and doesnt care about jinking.
Ravagers use to be awesome, but 105 points for 3 almost lascannons isn't as great as it use to be.
Raiders are ok, but not great. 60 points for an almost lascannon, not too bad. Perhaps if the things they carried were scary again they would seem better.

Xerics wrote:Ok this is how people run wave serpents

Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon Upgrade

The above total is 145 points. Eldar definitely pay for our transports.

Yes, and a chimera with...

Relic plating
Dozer blade
stubber
recovery gear
extra armor
fire barrels
HK missile
camo netting
augur array

... costs 153 points. So what? Does that mean chimeras are grossly overcosted just because you can make them really expensive by piling on upgrades? Voluntary upgrades? That also make the vehicle better?

Co'tor Shas wrote:How about we ignore wave serpents for this conversation?

Not that we should have to, but fine.

Let's talk raiders. They're a little cheaper than a chimera, and sure, they are definitely flimsier when you shoot them in the front arc (though the same from the rear and sides). Except that raiders...

- are an assault vehicle

- come with 10 fire ports

- have access to crazy upgrades for cheap (like an invul save, enemy range reducer, super ultra turbobooster, ability to make models twin-linked, etc.)

- are BS4

- ignore night fighting

- come with a DARK LANCE instead of a heavy bolter

- can pass through friendly and even enemy units

- can pass through impassable terrain, and even end their movement in it

- can completely avoid making dangerous terrain tests

- can dodge ramming attempts

- can transport their cargo 30" in a single turn (or farther with aethersails).

- can move 12" and still fire their anti-tank weapon at full BS4.

... and then you're going to tell me that on top of all of these other advantages, a person should be able to bump the table, and that's enough for them to get a 5+ cover save regardless of where they are on the board, even though a 5++, which is nearly the same, costs 10 points?

Skimmers makes a transport much stronger, as it allows the vehicle to be a transport better than non-skimmer vehicles. Making a transport into a fast skimmer makes them crazy better. Of course, the next step up is making a transport a flier, which is just dumb, but that's a different story.

Anyways, skimmers, especially fast ones are underpriced for what they give the player, even if you completely discarded jink. But that's not even what we're talking about, we're talking about still keeping jink, just making it require a little bit of meaningful player decision, rather than a free "that shot just didn't work" button.

Indeed we are talking about jink saves... but let me ask you... without any modification to the model, can a falcon chassis get a cover save from an ADL?

If the answer is Yes, then you would be right and Wave Serpents would have no right to a jink save, or any skimmer as they all have the same problem.

However, if the answer is No, then understand you have a double standard on your hands and think about the outcome of such a broad sweeping change to any type of skimmer.

What?

Is an ADL the one and only way that something can get a cover save anymore? Seems like kind of a waste to have written all those rules for terrain I guess that no one uses.

 Ailaros wrote:
What?

Is an ADL the one and only way that something can get a cover save anymore? Seems like kind of a waste to have written all those rules for terrain I guess that no one uses.

Of course not but it proves a point...

Any non skimmer can easily get a save if there is SOMETHING in front of it, up to and including foot troops. Skimmers cannot get that benefit as they are too high off the ground.

 Ailaros wrote:

Let's talk raiders. They're a little cheaper than a chimera, and sure, they are definitely flimsier when you shoot them in the front arc (though the same from the rear and sides). Except that raiders...

- are an assault vehicle
- come with 10 fire ports
- have access to crazy upgrades for cheap (like an invul save, enemy range reducer, super ultra turbobooster, ability to make models twin-linked, etc.)
- are BS4
- ignore night fighting
- come with a DARK LANCE instead of a heavy bolter
- can pass through friendly and even enemy units
- can pass through impassable terrain, and even end their movement in it
- can completely avoid making dangerous terrain tests
- can dodge ramming attempts
- can transport their cargo 30" in a single turn (or farther with aethersails).
- can move 12" and still fire their anti-tank weapon at full BS4.

... and then you're going to tell me that on top of all of these other advantages, a person should be able to bump the table, and that's enough for them to get a 5+ cover save regardless of where they are on the board, even though a 5++, which is nearly the same, costs 10 points?

A 5++ is much better than 5+ cover, with all the ignores cover out there and the 5++ works in assault

 Ailaros wrote:

- come with a DARK LANCE instead of a heavy bolter

They come with a Dark Lance instead of a Multilaser AND a heavy bolter. 6 shots to 1. The chimera also has the option to take other weapons, autocannons, dual heavy bolter, heavy flamers.

 Ailaros wrote:

- have access to crazy upgrades for cheap (like an invul save, enemy range reducer, super ultra turbobooster, ability to make models twin-linked, etc.)

What great upgrades? Other than the 2 defensive upgrades they have crap.
The ultra turbo booster isnt great, moving flat out is usually enough to get you where you are going
It's an ability to make only basic guns twinlinked, which isn't that great.
The ram lets you tank shock, which a chimera can already do as it is a tank.
The chimera also vehicle upgrades. Camo nets are ok, more weapons are at least an option.

 Ailaros wrote:

- are an assault vehicle
- come with 10 fire ports

Getting the 10 fireports and assault vehicle comes at the cost of +1 damage result on a penetrating hit, which is pretty common on AV10
10 fireports isn't great when what is being transported isn't all that awesome. Trueborn can take a lot of weapons, but they cost a ton. Otherwise you get 1 special and 1 heavy if anything. 2 fire points would be great. DE have no ultra cheap BS4 troop choice than can tote around 3 special weapons.
Whats more, the chimera can split fire with its lasgun array and the special weapons shooting out the hatch. DE either waste the splinters on tanks or waste the blasters on infantry, unless they are shooting at an MC.
Assault vehicle isnt that great if the assault units coming out of it aren't that great either.

Sure, a skimmer will have a harder time getting a cover save from one class of terrain. But it's not impossible, and that's not the only class of terrain.

I mean, if we were talking about fliers, which need lvl 3 ruins or equivalent to get cover saves, then that would be a different matter, as they don't get cover from anything except one type of terrain, rather than getting cover from everything except sometimes one type.

Is it a drawback? Yes, but it doesn't justify skimmers getting cover saves everywhere for free.

Exergy wrote:A 5++ is much better than 5+ cover, with all the ignores cover out there and the 5++ works in assault

With the exception of tau, few weapons have ignores cover. Against a vast majority of shooting attacks, they're the same.

And it is better against close combat, that is definitely true. I'd like to see the person who lets their 30" moving skimmer get stuck in a close combat that they care about, though.

Exergy wrote:They come with a Dark Lance instead of a Multilaser AND a heavy bolter. 6 shots to 1. The chimera also has the option to take other weapons, autocannons, dual heavy bolter, heavy flamers.

Yes, FORGEWORLD has expansion options, but if we're going there, then we can talk about forgeworld options for DE as well.

And really? 6 vs. 1?

I'll trade you 6 lasgun shots for one vortex grenade. Oh, actually, that's way unfair. I should get six vortex grenades. Per turn.

That's better.

Exergy wrote:What great upgrades?

All those ones that you're just completely dismissing as irrelevant because it would hurt the argument that raiders are good.

You know, the one that lets the transport mini-vector strike, or allows a transport to move infantry up to 42" in a single turn, or that shreds units trying to assault it, or passes out leadership buffs to nearby units, or the one that hurts enemy leadership, or lets the transport deepstrike or give the dudes inside guaranteed prescience.

But I'm sure there are plenty of non-skimmers that have access to stuff like that instead of being stuck with dozer blades and smoke launchers.

Exergy wrote:10 fireports isn't great when what is being transported isn't all that awesome.

You have got to be kidding.

Let's take imperial guard veterans and give them extra special weapons and the ability to shoot all of them instead of just 2. Or haywire grenade spam. Or small arms that can bring down a wraithknight.

You'd have to be pretty myopic to think that DE raiders are bad because the rest of DE are.

Plus, really, if everything you said were true, it's JINK that somehow fixes all of these problems?

 Ailaros wrote:

Exergy wrote:What great upgrades?

All those ones that you're just completely dismissing as irrelevant because it would hurt the argument that raiders are good.

You know, the one that lets the transport mini-vector strike, or allows a transport to move infantry up to 42" in a single turn, or that shreds units trying to assault it, or passes out leadership buffs to nearby units, or the one that hurts enemy leadership, or lets the transport deepstrike or give the dudes inside guaranteed prescience.

"mini vector strike," only when moving fast, only against infantry, and wont kill a SWS
"42" in a single turn," the board is how big? You cannot disembark, so you are going to need the move next turn. So it's 44-54" in 2 turns, rather than the normal 42" in two turns without the upgrade.
"shreds units that assault it," will do nothing against any unit that actually wants to assault it. I dont see too many 50 man guard blobs assaulting my raiders.
-1 enemy leadership is situational, if you like having your AV10 open topped vehicles within rapid fire and charge range of the enemy.
reroll leadership tests is also somewhat useful, but after your vehicle blows up, it cant help you from being pinned.
Deepstriking a large vehicle with uncontrolled scatter is unlikely to be better than moving in from the table edge 30".
"Guaranteed prescience" on their basic guns only. 10 warriors, 1 splinter cannon, 1 blaster, 8 rifles left. BS 4 you normally get 5.3 hits. With splinter racks you get 7.1. 10 points to get 1.8 more hits, double if rapid firing. Unless you are moving, in which case it doubles your firepower, but being snapshots you aren't talking about much.

A lot of these vehicle upgrades might be useful on different vehicles, but aren't of much use on a raider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

Exergy wrote:10 fireports isn't great when what is being transported isn't all that awesome.

You have got to be kidding.

Let's take imperial guard veterans and give them extra special weapons and the ability to shoot all of them instead of just 2. Or haywire grenade spam. Or small arms that can bring down a wraithknight.

Haywire grenade spam? you can only ever throw one grenade, so it matters not how many fireports you have. 10 wyches, all with haywire grenades can indeed kill most tanks in the game, but they cost 120 points and require to be in BTB with said tank to destroy it. on a unit with few other uses, i guess it works.
Small arms that can down a wraithknight. Perhaps hurt a wraithknight. It takes a lot of small arms to down a wraithknight. 54 splinter shots. Rather easy for the heavy weapons, that are packing 6 shots each, but difficult for the pistols and rifles, which come on bodies much more expensive than vets.

 Ailaros wrote:

Xerics wrote:Ok this is how people run wave serpents

Wave Serpent
Holo Fields
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon Upgrade

The above total is 145 points. Eldar definitely pay for our transports.

Yes, and a chimera with...

Relic plating
Dozer blade
stubber
recovery gear
extra armor
fire barrels
HK missile
camo netting
augur array

... costs 153 points. So what? Does that mean chimeras are grossly overcosted just because you can make them really expensive by piling on upgrades? Voluntary upgrades? That also make the vehicle better?

Co'tor Shas wrote:How about we ignore wave serpents for this conversation?

Not that we should have to, but fine.

Let's talk raiders. They're a little cheaper than a chimera, and sure, they are definitely flimsier when you shoot them in the front arc (though the same from the rear and sides). Except that raiders...

- are an assault vehicle

- come with 10 fire ports

- have access to crazy upgrades for cheap (like an invul save, enemy range reducer, super ultra turbobooster, ability to make models twin-linked, etc.)

- are BS4

- ignore night fighting

- come with a DARK LANCE instead of a heavy bolter

- can pass through friendly and even enemy units

- can pass through impassable terrain, and even end their movement in it

- can completely avoid making dangerous terrain tests

- can dodge ramming attempts

- can transport their cargo 30" in a single turn (or farther with aethersails).

- can move 12" and still fire their anti-tank weapon at full BS4.

... and then you're going to tell me that on top of all of these other advantages, a person should be able to bump the table, and that's enough for them to get a 5+ cover save regardless of where they are on the board, even though a 5++, which is nearly the same, costs 10 points?

Skimmers makes a transport much stronger, as it allows the vehicle to be a transport better than non-skimmer vehicles. Making a transport into a fast skimmer makes them crazy better. Of course, the next step up is making a transport a flier, which is just dumb, but that's a different story.

Anyways, skimmers, especially fast ones are underpriced for what they give the player, even if you completely discarded jink. But that's not even what we're talking about, we're talking about still keeping jink, just making it require a little bit of meaningful player decision, rather than a free "that shot just didn't work" button.

Ok so if you want to go max points bull then here you go.

Wave Serpent
Scatter laser
Shuriken Cannon upgrade
Holo Fields
Ghostwalk Matrix
Spirit Stones
Star Engines
Vectored Engines
Crystal targeting Matrix

220 points


I only listed the things that were commonly used Not every upgrade available.


Inappropriate text removed. --yakface

Dude, Xerics, over the line.

Its nothing many other haven't already said about him in various other threads I have read.

And Ailaros, I think you're wrong. Sorry, but the Raider is not the god-machine you seem to imply.

I'm not being ornery, but have you ever actually played with one? With the exception of Night Shields, Splinter Racks (sometimes), Retrofire Jets (sometimes), and Flicker Fields (again, sometimes), the upgrades aren't that good. In fact, they're pretty useless the majority of the time. Even Retrofire Jets are pretty worthless in most cases. I only include them because I have a grossly over-developed love for Deep Strike.

The Raider gets absolutely shredded by small arms fire, which a Chimera can largely ignore in the early game. The difference between a front armor of 12 and one of 10 is gigantic. Simply huge.

In addition, I don't think it gives a clear picture to compare vehicles to one another when the armies they come from are so different. An IG army doesn't benefit hugely from having an Assault Vehicle for its troops (or for the majority of the army, really), so it's a little disingenuous to act like it's such a huge discrepancy. Meanwhile, the lack of being open-topped provides far more benefits to the Guardsmen than negatives. (Like, not getting exploded as often, for instance.)

The chimera is actually one of the better transports available. (I'd trade my Rhinos out of the SM codex for them in a heartbeat.)

I think the reduction to 5+ was all the take-down the Jink rule needed. Anything else is excessively punitive to everyone who uses Jink.

That being said, if this wild rumor actually IS true, I predict that Flicker Fields become THE must-have summer fashion accessory for the Archon on the go!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:
Its nothing many other haven't already said about him in various other threads I have read.

Still a violation of the dakka terms of use.

Just because other people throw garbage in the street doesn't make throwing garbage in the street an acceptable activity. Personal attacks of that variety are verbal garbage in Dakka's streets. They make people who visit not want to hang around, and they make people who DO live here think about looking for a neighborhood with a better class of people. I too disagree strongly with users from time to time, but please don't litter.

The difference between a front armor of 12 and one of 10 is gigantic. Simply huge.

Yet another reason why Serpenets are OP - AV 12 front AND sides

If you look at the construction of the Wave serpent it makes sense to have armor 12 on the sides. There really isnt anything different from the front to the sides. Weaker rear makes alot of sense due to the ramp where troops exit but the sides look alot like the front and since eldar dont rely on thickness and rather on the great material they use it makes sense for our armor to be better on the sides rather then with the imperials who use quantity (thickness) over quality (material).

 Xerics wrote:
If you look at the construction of the Wave serpent it makes sense to have armor 12 on the sides. There really isnt anything different from the front to the sides. Weaker rear makes alot of sense due to the ramp where troops exit but the sides look alot like the front and since eldar dont rely on thickness and rather on the great material they use it makes sense for our armor to be better on the sides rather then with the imperials who use quantity (thickness) over quality (material).

What has any of the fluff got to do with if it is a balanced unit - as a very very few player argue or an OP super durable gunship as pretty much everyone else thinks

If you are going to argue via the fluff - why is the "weapon of last resort" a 60" range uber gun that can be used very turn?

 Ailaros wrote:
Personally, I'd rather they bring back 4th ed's "the model must end its movement phase at least so far from where it started" restriction. It's been two editions now that a skimmer can basically just shimmy in place, but LOOK HOW HARD THEY ARE TO SHOOT!!!

The move or shoot mechanic would be somewhat less ideal, but it would be nice to give them something that made jinking a decision rather than a just-because free save.

Hey my hammerhead has some mad maneuvers, who says the 1 inch movement is not enough to matrix doge incoming fire.
Jokes aside this is scary for my armies. Looking forward to having the rules in my hand now.

 R3YNO wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Personally, I'd rather they bring back 4th ed's "the model must end its movement phase at least so far from where it started" restriction. It's been two editions now that a skimmer can basically just shimmy in place, but LOOK HOW HARD THEY ARE TO SHOOT!!!

The move or shoot mechanic would be somewhat less ideal, but it would be nice to give them something that made jinking a decision rather than a just-because free save.

Hey my hammerhead has some mad maneuvers, who says the 1 inch movement is not enough to matrix doge incoming fire.
Jokes aside this is scary for my armies. Looking forward to having the rules in my hand now.

I like that they can weave back and forth, ending near their starting point, and still get the Jink. Personally, I thought the justification of a Jink save was supposed to be agility more than speed (the raw speed component is reflected in the bonus for going faster). I think that a return to the older system wouldn't make much sense. However, turbo-boosting or flat-out movements I could see having to be straight-line, minimum distance affairs. That would make sense.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
If you look at the construction of the Wave serpent it makes sense to have armor 12 on the sides. There really isnt anything different from the front to the sides. Weaker rear makes alot of sense due to the ramp where troops exit but the sides look alot like the front and since eldar dont rely on thickness and rather on the great material they use it makes sense for our armor to be better on the sides rather then with the imperials who use quantity (thickness) over quality (material).

What has any of the fluff got to do with if it is a balanced unit - as a very very few player argue or an OP super durable gunship as pretty much everyone else thinks

If you are going to argue via the fluff - why is the "weapon of last resort" a 60" range uber gun that can be used very turn?

For the shield I'm not arguing for that. I personally went "WTF" when i first read it in my codex.

 Xerics wrote:
If you look at the construction of the Wave serpent it makes sense to have armor 12 on the sides. There really isnt anything different from the front to the sides. Weaker rear makes alot of sense due to the ramp where troops exit but the sides look alot like the front and since eldar dont rely on thickness and rather on the great material they use it makes sense for our armor to be better on the sides rather then with the imperials who use quantity (thickness) over quality (material).

you're defending the waveserpent like you made it, we understand what your trying to get across. you love the ws the way it is, and want nothing about it to change. in your view it's perfectly fluffy and balanced. but the guy across the table knows it's op for it's points cost, it needs to be changed. what it does versus what it costs are extremely out of ratio.

Please read the post right above yours.

All I know is if that the Jink save rumor is correct, and Snap Shots are still the same as now, my Ravenwing army probably won't see much use.