Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If I assume that a regular 6" move would be about 12 paces, it would take about 6-10 seconds, plus 5 seconds of shooting, maybe 15 second for an assault (if they happen at all). Let's say about 45 seconds for a player turn. Assaults would all happen simultaneously, of course. With some overlap of player turns (the opposing army wouldn't sit there politely for their enemy to finish up what they're doing), about 80-90 seconds per game turn. So a full 6-turn game would take less than 10 minutes in real time. Does that sound like a reasonable estimate?

I think its not that they shoot for 5 seconds, its all supposed to be happening at the same time, its broken up into turns for the sake of understanding for the game.
Its be safe to assume its hours. Seeing as how after turn one night fight is no longer in effect. and if the game doesnt start with nightfight by the end of the game it is getting dark.
As a soldier irl who has been to afghanistan and back i can tell you firefights that last 3-12 hours are not unheard of or even really that rare. so yeah its an all day thing.

This is not a simulation game. Pretty much everything is abstract. No sense trying to apply real-world measurements on time or distance.

 pocketcanoe wrote:
Does that sound like a reasonable estimate?

It does not, because none of the events in the game are scaled to any particular time scale. it takes a tech-marine the same amount of time in-game to fix an immobilized vehicle as it does for a tac marine to rattle off a burst of fire.

Distance in game works the same way.

There are several ways of looking at it. For example, we could look at how long it would take certain units to move the full allowed distance:

infantry units - around 3 to 5 minutes of "real" life time. This is assuming they are hunkered down, trying to move forward while avoiding getting their butts shot off.

jets - Varies based on how long it takes to turn around for another pass. The current in game movement of 18" should be accomplished in about 1 to 2 seconds... but flying off the board and coming around would take at least a minute per pass.

tanks - maybe 90 seconds.

=====

If we are basing it off of number of shots fired over 6 turns, then it's certainly less than 2 minutes.. probably less than 60 seconds.

Watch the first 15 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. From coming in from the water (deployment) to landing (1st turn) to advance on beach (turn 2 & 3) to sand dune (turn 4) to attack uphill (turn 5) to final battle up top (turn 6) about 15 minutes 42 seconds in real life time.

The bridge scene too, about 15 minutes... set up of town, bait Germans (turn 1), first fight (turn 2), moving into city further (turn 3), HtH (turn 4), going over bridge (turn 5), aircraft save the day (turn 6).... just over 15 minutes....

Depending on what the scenario is, I imagine different lengths of time - anywhere form a few minutes, to an entire day worth of fighting.

It's all heavily abstracted, the better to let the players use their imagination (or... FORGE A NARRATIVE!)

Probably a few seconds.

Turn 1: Rhino rumbles onto the field.
Turn 2: Marine Flavius disembarks and fires a shot
Turn 3: Marine Flavius sprints over to the ruins, get jumped by a heretical Eldar. Flavius' armour takes the hit.
Opponent's turn 3: Eldar guy swings his sword again. Flavius dodges under the swing and thrusts with his combat knife, missing the slippery Eldar.
Turn 4: Marine Flavius reverses the grip on the knife and disembowels the Xenos. Takes a consolidating step into cover.
Turn 5: Marine Flavius paces ahead to the objective and shoots another double-tap.
Turn 6: Marine Flavius voxes to Sergeant Darius "Objective Epsilon secured".

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 pocketcanoe wrote:
Does that sound like a reasonable estimate?

It does not, because none of the events in the game are scaled to any particular time scale. it takes a tech-marine the same amount of time in-game to fix an immobilized vehicle as it does for a tac marine to rattle off a burst of fire.

Distance in game works the same way.

Maybe repairs in 40k work the same as they do in TF2.

"Just hit it with a wrench until it works!"

Most of the time measurements make sense, until you get to night fighting and general game length. Those CO's must have a very busy day planned if they insist on the battle being over in 5-7 turns, regardless of how close you were to winning. Even the Tyranids just pack up and go home.

I think one turn would last 10 minutes, therefore making a single battle 30-90 minutes long.

I always assumed the battles lasted fairly quickly, life isn't really valued in the 41st millennium and these 1500 point skirmishes are just a very small part of a huge battle. Unlike now when soldiers lives are valued, the 41st millennium has commissars ordering hundred's to charge forward in the open willing executing anyone on the spot who refuses, demons going to and from the void, and robots marching forward en-mass.

As for the techmarines repair, the servo-arms are like a natural extension of themselves and are able to make a flurry of movements with them and their arms without trying, and repairing hull points is just a matter of fixing crimped armor and slapping on more metal, as for the weapons, depending on the damage he could be just bending the ammo feeder back or even ripping off one side and using his hand to repair the parts manually.

The only thing I can think of against this has already been brought up, which is night fighting. But seeing as it doesnt keep going back and forth from night fighting and not every other turn, its safe to assume that the night fighting is a single anomaly of turn/time relation that could be explained a few ways. Maybe everyone is moving slow because even the commanders dont know what to order since they can't see anything, maybe its just getting dawn, so its hard to see but still possible so that the dug in troops are finally moving around since they can see, maybe the planet has multiple suns, so night doesnt last or even happen unless there is an eclipse from one of the many moons, maybe it is an accurate representation of turn/time relations and that battles in 40k are a lot slower, or maybe, just maybe, its a board game that has demons coming out of the twilight zone with giant dinosaurs trying to take over the universe and the makers didn't care about explaining the passage of time in the game.

Who knows! ^.^

 spartanlegion wrote:
Watch the first 15 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. From coming in from the water (deployment) to landing (1st turn) to advance on beach (turn 2 & 3) to sand dune (turn 4) to attack uphill (turn 5) to final battle up top (turn 6) about 15 minutes 42 seconds in real life time.

The bridge scene too, about 15 minutes... set up of town, bait Germans (turn 1), first fight (turn 2), moving into city further (turn 3), HtH (turn 4), going over bridge (turn 5), aircraft save the day (turn 6).... just over 15 minutes....

Interesting thought to bring up. I would have never considered looking at that. Nice

 Ryan_A wrote:
I always assumed the battles lasted fairly quickly, life isn't really valued in the 41st millennium and these 1500 point skirmishes are just a very small part of a huge battle. Unlike now when soldiers lives are valued, the 41st millennium has commissars ordering hundred's to charge forward in the open willing executing anyone on the spot who refuses, demons going to and from the void, and robots marching forward en-mass.

As for the techmarines repair, the servo-arms are like a natural extension of themselves and are able to make a flurry of movements with them and their arms without trying, and repairing hull points is just a matter of fixing crimped armor and slapping on more metal, as for the weapons, depending on the damage he could be just bending the ammo feeder back or even ripping off one side and using his hand to repair the parts manually.

The only thing I can think of against this has already been brought up, which is night fighting. But seeing as it doesnt keep going back and forth from night fighting and not every other turn, its safe to assume that the night fighting is a single anomaly of turn/time relation that could be explained a few ways. Maybe everyone is moving slow because even the commanders dont know what to order since they can't see anything, maybe its just getting dawn, so its hard to see but still possible so that the dug in troops are finally moving around since they can see, maybe the planet has multiple suns, so night doesnt last or even happen unless there is an eclipse from one of the many moons, maybe it is an accurate representation of turn/time relations and that battles in 40k are a lot slower, or maybe, just maybe, its a board game that has demons coming out of the twilight zone with giant dinosaurs trying to take over the universe and the makers didn't care about explaining the passage of time in the game.

Who knows! ^.^

Everything about that last paragraph was a win!

The average engagement of a modern military force of platoon-sized elements is over in about 2 minutes from the first shot.

Obviously, sieges or attacks on a dug-in position can be much longer, but in nothing more than "area terrain", if Platoon A meets Platoon B of the Op-For, it takes about 2 minutes for one side to kill or route the other.

I agree, it will take a few minutes. Like 3-5, maybe.

Firefights in real life are super short. Especially, you know, when one side is charging out into the open, and everyone has a machine gun or flamethrower, like 40k.

The only firefight I was in was about 120 insurgents attacking an entrentched, fortified US FOB. From first mortar round to the last rocket fired by an Apache, it took about an hour. However, a typical 40K game is much smaller, closer proximity and both sides advancing. Im guessing about 5 minutes top.

 Musashi363 wrote:
The only firefight I was in was about 120 insurgents attacking an entrentched, fortified US FOB. From first mortar round to the last rocket fired by an Apache, it took about an hour. However, a typical 40K game is much smaller, closer proximity and both sides advancing. Im guessing about 5 minutes top.

LOL sounds about right. When we got hit on our worst it rained hell for 13 hours straight, mortars, chinese 107's, dishka and recoiless all day long. Our 777's, 81's and 120's where going non stop. we had kfiowa's and apache's on station and F-15 checked in and out of our AO all day. gak was real. Thats how i imagine 40k. Not an hour or 15 minutes but contact from before sun up till noon (night fight at the beginning of the game) or contact from after lunch until dark (night fight at the end of the game)

 spartanlegion wrote:
Watch the first 15 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. From coming in from the water (deployment) to landing (1st turn) to advance on beach (turn 2 & 3) to sand dune (turn 4) to attack uphill (turn 5) to final battle up top (turn 6) about 15 minutes 42 seconds in real life time.

The bridge scene too, about 15 minutes... set up of town, bait Germans (turn 1), first fight (turn 2), moving into city further (turn 3), HtH (turn 4), going over bridge (turn 5), aircraft save the day (turn 6).... just over 15 minutes....

Watch the wh40k Dawn of war trailer here(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-E1RcRvny8)

T1 SM: Tank shoots (0:14) Random bolter Fire from SM
T1 Orks: Blow up tank (0:17) / run into assualt range(0:26)
T2 SM: CC(0:26) Dreadnought incoming(0:30-0:32)
T2 Orks: Assuming Orks move into position (0:35)
T3 SM: Run at the orks (0:35-0:44)
T4 Orks: CHARGE TO MEET THEM (0:44 - 0:50) Engage in Assault- Blow up Dreadnought (1:12)
T4 SM: Get to the top of the hill (1:21)
T5 Orks: Murder the remaining Captain(1:31-1:41)
T5 SM: Deep Strike/Steel Rehn(1:47-end)

If I broke up the turns wrong, or you think the turns are broken up wrong, watch the video, and draw your own conclusions! Reply or quote with your opinion!

If we take the leap of faith and ignore the range restrictions of the weapons in game and assume a 40k game is roughly proportional to the models used and use real world equivalents to judge stuff by? A 40k battle is a few minutes at most, probably less, I'd say certainly no more than 5 minutes, probably closer to 2-3, perhaps even as little as 60-90 seconds.

40k battles really are sort of focal points, not really intended to portray the entirety of a real major battle but either a small skirmish at close quarters or the ultimate central focus of a larger pitched battle at a critical point.

Musashi363 wrote:The only firefight I was in was about 120 insurgents attacking an entrentched, fortified US FOB. From first mortar round to the last rocket fired by an Apache, it took about an hour. However, a typical 40K game is much smaller, closer proximity and both sides advancing. Im guessing about 5 minutes top.

Yeah, I mean, I guess one could technically say that the Somme was a firefight that took 16 months. But yeah, look at the nature of combat in 40k.

It's not where a few insurgents creep forward and lob a few mortars for awhile until they're discovered and then chased away by angry helicopter pilots, it's where they full-frontal suicide charge, and the battle only takes about as long as it takes to mow them down.

More like the end of the last samurai, which is what I can imagine it would have looked like if those 120 bad guys had been stupid enough to break cover and attempt a bayonet charge or to get into a sword fight.

 Ailaros wrote:

Musashi363 wrote:The only firefight I was in was about 120 insurgents attacking an entrentched, fortified US FOB. From first mortar round to the last rocket fired by an Apache, it took about an hour. However, a typical 40K game is much smaller, closer proximity and both sides advancing. Im guessing about 5 minutes top.

Yeah, I mean, I guess one could technically say that the Somme was a firefight that took 16 months. But yeah, look at the nature of combat in 40k.

It's not where a few insurgents creep forward and lob a few mortars for awhile until they're discovered and then chased away by angry helicopter pilots, it's where they full-frontal suicide charge, and the battle only takes about as long as it takes to mow them down.

More like the end of the last samurai, which is what I can imagine it would have looked like if those 120 bad guys had been stupid enough to break cover and attempt a bayonet charge or to get into a sword fight.

You're not making your point clear. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?
I was in Iraq and the way I view 40k is highly abstract. During battle certain parts seem to slow down to the point of reloading a rifle feels like it take an hour and sometimes everything happens all in the same instant. But generally I get the feeling that these battles are fairly short bursts of action in a much larger engagement. Like the second poster said, sometimes these kind of fights can take longer than you think, but sometimes they can take much shorter.

Here's the problem with this discussion. I'm guessing we are talking about something small, not an apocalypse game, but like two people playing the Dark Vengeance box set. In that case, Can we clarify the size of the game.

MWHistorian wrote:You're not making your point clear. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

I'm agreeing.

He said that the combat he was in took an hour, but it wasn't similar to the way that combat is done in 40k. Likewise, there are other ways combat is done that takes longer than 5 minutes, but they're also ways that are dissimilar to 40k.

If the poster's Iraq experience had been like a 40k experience, I assume that the firefight would have taken much shorter, as it would have been a hundred bad guys charging into a couple of dudes with SAWs and it would have taken about as long for the firefight to take place as it would to put bullets into all of them, which wouldn't take that long.

 Ailaros wrote:

MWHistorian wrote:You're not making your point clear. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

I assume that the firefight would have taken much shorter, as it would have been a hundred bad guys charging into a couple of dudes with SAWs and it would have taken about as long for the firefight to take place as it would to put bullets into all of them, which wouldn't take that long.

I've actually seen that happen and yes, its over remarkably quick.

Games of 40K are alot like combat scenes in roleplaying games, where turns can easily be just 5-10 seconds long.

I imagine about 15 minutes or less for the engagement that a 40K battlefield is portraying. Now fighting off-table could have been going on for hours, but an engagement firefight would be obscenely fast for an outside observer.

 Freytag93 wrote:

 spartanlegion wrote:
Watch the first 15 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. From coming in from the water (deployment) to landing (1st turn) to advance on beach (turn 2 & 3) to sand dune (turn 4) to attack uphill (turn 5) to final battle up top (turn 6) about 15 minutes 42 seconds in real life time.

The bridge scene too, about 15 minutes... set up of town, bait Germans (turn 1), first fight (turn 2), moving into city further (turn 3), HtH (turn 4), going over bridge (turn 5), aircraft save the day (turn 6).... just over 15 minutes....

Interesting thought to bring up. I would have never considered looking at that. Nice

Yeah, I have several tanks and several dozen men in my 2k Guard army. A 2k vs 2k game lasts an hour. Then I thought, in SPR, there were several tanks and several dozen germans against less Americans. Almost a 2k vs 1k game, but the 1k army got fortifications. So that scene was 15 to 16 minutes...

The start of the movie, you have arty bombing, troops in carriers, and troops. So again, several vehicles and several dozen men. Like in a game. The Germans were dug in, had arty, had heavy weapons teams, tanks up top, so more like a 2k vs 2k game.

You have to focus on a 1:1 real scenario in comparison to your model count really. That was my thinking.

Rogue Trade was originally modelled on the DnD turn sequence, which was about 10secs in "real time". 2nd restructured the game, and could be said to be more like a minute per game turn. Neither 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th have impacted the game turn in such a way to imply a longer amount of "real time" is occurring. I'd say the average game lasts about 5mins in "real time".

SJ

There is no correct answer to this question, and it really is a matter of personal preference. I think using the scale of movement is the least sensible approach, especially when you compare movement rates to the range of weapons or equipment like voxcasters. The two most appealing options to me are represented by these arguments:

Guilldog wrote:As a soldier irl who has been to afghanistan and back i can tell you firefights that last 3-12 hours are not unheard of or even really that rare. so yeah its an all day thing.

There you go. 3 to 12 hours, from someone who has actually been in a war. That sounds about right to me, as a campaign in Warhammer 40k is about the equivalent of a "battle" (such as the Battle for Iwo Jima or the Battle of Stalingrad), which generally last a few weeks (Iwo Jima) to a few months (Stalingrad), and are made numerous engagements (games) that tend to run all day as reserves are brought in and enemies try to hide and gain position on each other.

spartanlegion wrote:Watch the first 15 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. From coming in from the water (deployment) to landing (1st turn) to advance on beach (turn 2 & 3) to sand dune (turn 4) to attack uphill (turn 5) to final battle up top (turn 6) about 15 minutes 42 seconds in real life time....The bridge scene too, about 15 minutes... set up of town, bait Germans (turn 1), first fight (turn 2), moving into city further (turn 3), HtH (turn 4), going over bridge (turn 5), aircraft save the day (turn 6).... just over 15 minutes.

And this is essentially the other way to see it. As not a continuous flowing event, but as a series of decisive, cinematic moves or keynote scenes, in which most of the battle is edited out to focus on a few key moments. The first way abstracts the game as simulation, the second as a narrative.

Well the reason i say more than just a few seconds or minutes like most people isnt simply because ive been there before. But i know that it takes more than a few seconds to disembark from a vehicle and engage accurately. Also think about reserves. If the fight was only a few minutes the on ground commander wouldnt have time or the need to call in reinforcements and have his request confirmed and responded to. And everyone keeps saying that troops are in the open walking towards each other just shooting. Ive never played a game of 40k like this in my life. Most games i play are strategic and most player (myself included) hug cover, move carefully and most of the time make a mad dash at the end to claim the objective. The only time its an all out blood bath is kill points. So with those ideas in play i stand by that its an hour long engagement but i agree with the Iraq vet that posted earlier even in real life time seems to stretch due to adrenaline and other factors. At some points you are dashing for cover, dragging a buddy and calling in support all at once and then as he put it takes all day to reload and you can see the vapor trails of rounds and they wizz by so yeah. I would say the actions in the game are based on this abstract factor of time but the over all length of the engagement is a few hours.