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Rhino and psyrazor spam just to boost your psychic dice, along with cheap inquisitors, and then whatever to utilize those dice (seen deamon allies, yuck). Not even 2 weeks in and I am not a fan of these combos.

Are you talking about a bound list?

Coteaz along with very very small henchmen squads (two acolytes and a henchmen psyker) in razorbacks, gets you two warp dice per squad (1 from the razor, 1 from the henchman psyker) for 68 points. So 500 ish points gets you 14 warp dice (12 from the 6 squads, 2 from Coteaz).

If Grey Knights and Daemons are in the same list they should immediately have to start murdering each other and ignore the opposing player. There should be a level well beyond come the apocalypse just for that combo.

Pysback spam was also already a thing, and honestly I'm not sure why this type of army even needs 30+ dice in the psychic phase unless it's trying to shut down a daemon factory or something like that. What are you gonna do, give all your vehicles a 6++ from sanctuary? Your psykers can't cast anything but a witchfire from inside a transport now right, and razors don't even have fire points...

 rabidguineapig wrote:
If Grey Knights and Daemons are in the same list they should immediately have to start murdering each other and ignore the opposing player. There should be a level well beyond come the apocalypse just for that combo.

Pysback spam was also already a thing, and honestly I'm not sure why this type of army even needs 30+ dice in the psychic phase unless it's trying to shut down a daemon factory or something like that. What are you gonna do, give all your vehicles a 6++ from sanctuary? Your psykers can't cast anything but a witchfire from inside a transport now right, and razors don't even have fire points...

My point is you spend only 508 points to get 14 warp charges and 6 razorbacks which score. Along with Coteaz! The rest of the army, be it GK or some other ally or whatever (NOT demons lol) does some nasty stuff with those warp charges. I'm not a power gamer and rarely can come up with an overpowered combo by thinking about it, but I'm assuming someone is going to come up with a crazy strong list that relies on a backbone of MSU and warp charges from Grey Knights.

Yes so for roughly 1k points since you dont pay for corteaz twice, you get 28 warp tokens. Then you take 1k deamons, for another 12 or so tokens. Then you spend those tokens to summon more deamons, and by the end of the game you have like 1k more points than you started with. Utter garbage. Also watching grey knights and deamons working together made me want to forge my narrative right into the backside of jervis johnson.

Is Jervis Johnson worse than Mat Ward? Since he is largely responsible for 7th

 Sir Arun wrote:
Is Jervis Johnson worse than Mat Ward? Since he is largely responsible for 7th

They're both alright.



There, I said it.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Is Jervis Johnson worse than Mat Ward? Since he is largely responsible for 7th

If Mat Ward rocked 7th edition we would have got a story about Grey Knights fighting daemons, then tyranids appear so naturally the grey knights and daemons stop fighting each other so they can join forces to kill the bugs

Anyone who puts GKs and Daemons in the same list should be forced to eat their codexes.

There's fluff heresy, and then there's fluff EXTRA HERESY.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Is Jervis Johnson worse than Mat Ward? Since he is largely responsible for 7th

I rather like the 7th edition rules. Great flexibility and ability for gamers to play with all of their model collections. All it requires is for the players to exercise some restraint and not be morons. Competitive play will, as always, be mediated by the tourney organisers.

 Flinty wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Is Jervis Johnson worse than Mat Ward? Since he is largely responsible for 7th

I rather like the 7th edition rules. Great flexibility and ability for gamers to play with all of their model collections. All it requires is for the players to exercise some restraint and not be morons. Competitive play will, as always, be mediated by the tourney organisers.

Restraint is subjective. Good luck with that. Emperor forbird the company concerns itself with making a flexible AND competative ruleset.

New USR - If a player fields both Grey Knights and Demons in the same army you are allowed to reach over the table, slap him in face, and declare an automatic victory for yourself.

 Kain wrote:
Anyone who puts GKs and Daemons in the same list should be forced to eat their codexes.

There's fluff heresy, and then there's fluff EXTRA HERESY.

Well I saw it last night, and about wanted to throw my models in an incinerator. His new plan for next months tournament (they are trying out anything but unbound, and no forgeworld still) Is coteaz, 13 psyrazors, 13 inquisitor squads, and he is undecided on his 1k deamons so far. His goal is 40 dice. He wants to by the end of the game have had 4k points of models on his side during the game, argueing that sheer weight of numbers will win him any scenario not filled with lords of war, and he is probably right.

He asked if it was allowed, but all I heard was "is it ok if I single handedly drop the participation in the tournament after this one to two guys?"

- Removed by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1 -

 AesSedai wrote:

 Flinty wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Is Jervis Johnson worse than Mat Ward? Since he is largely responsible for 7th

I rather like the 7th edition rules. Great flexibility and ability for gamers to play with all of their model collections. All it requires is for the players to exercise some restraint and not be morons. Competitive play will, as always, be mediated by the tourney organisers.

Restraint is subjective. Good luck with that. Emperor forbird the company concerns itself with making a flexible AND competative ruleset.

They have stated again and again they have no interest in creating a competitive game. Their ideal customer is the hobbyist/collector not the competitive gamer and they design their rules for him. Competitive gamers just really don't spend as much money on the hobby as the hobbyist/collector. Why would they waste their time and money making a competitively balanced rule set when they can make far more money giving the guy who loves to collect and paint cool models and game with his buddies more reason to BUY MORE COOL MODELS AND PLAY WITH HIS BUDDIES. You want a super competitive game, GW is more than happy to let you go play warmahordes, they quite frankly probably have no interest in dealing with such a group that breeds such negativity as what happened with the 'ard boyz tournaments where organizers would sell off the prizes and players would cheat and game the system to assure themselves free stuff. Saying warhammer 40k has pretty much always been meant as a beer and pretzel kinda game is not a cop out....its just fact that people who want a competitive game willfully ignore or pretend hasn't been repeated a billion times by GW. If you want a competitive 40k ruleset do what GW says to do on pg 6 I do believe.....use the rules as a framework and houserule em as you see fit to be the game you want it to be.

Really it's no different then them just getting to make a bunch of leadership 10 tests except now the perils is a helluva lot worse. That's the think about all this 30 dice crap...it's still harder to get powers off than last edition and even if it's incredibly hard to stop a blessing you have a better chance then you did last edition...and the more dice they roll the more likely they are to kill their psyker. It's harder to perils on a 2d6 leadership test than it is to drop a minimum of 6 dice to have a reasonable chance of summoning demons without getting a 6+. Honestly, even if they had a billion dice, the chances of failure are higher than the ol ld10 test it was. So yeah, I'd play it no different than any other army...other than every time a psyker stepped out of a transport to cast powers I'd gun them down like the north side irish on the saint valentines day massacre.

This was brought up on another thread:
While you are summoning your 1k of deamons, who is killing the enemy while blast you into the stone age?

 Anpu42 wrote:
This was brought up on another thread:
While you are summoning your 1k of deamons, who is killing the enemy while blast you into the stone age?

the psychic phase is before shooting. How is summoning pink horrors to add to your psyrazorback spam shooting bad at all. Its free bodies to absorb fire, block lanes, and cause casualties the round they land in shooting.

 Anpu42 wrote:
This was brought up on another thread:
While you are summoning your 1k of deamons, who is killing the enemy while blast you into the stone age?

I played a game against sisters and only killed two units because my psychic phase consisted of me summoning more daemons and then doing a small amount of shooting. I won by grabbing a ton of objectives with my summoned daemons.

Not everyone has the amount of tanks to spam. it all sounds good on paper until it costs $ to build

teban wrote:
Not everyone has the amount of tanks to spam. it all sounds good on paper until it costs $ to build

We allow proxying models where we play. We cant just say nah feth that now just in the hopes it discourages someone from dropping 50 space marines as pink horrors and breaking the game farther than GW already has.

the game is not 'broken' - people break the game. I have yet to face more than 1 guy over here that tries too hard to break the game. And the other day i managed to table him with rhinos and flamers (necrons vs sisters of battle, 1.5k) ... and some meltas and a ton of luck (he failed his reroll for seizing the initiative)

Either way, Only a few people actually have lots of tanks to spam or proxy. Cheer up, the game is always about having fun!

If you allow that many Proxies then it's not the games rules fault but your own houserules you have to deal with that kinda crap. Game rules clearly state you need the appropriate models as per WYSIWYG, if you are dropping that you can't really blame it all on GW when problems like this come up.

Orktavius wrote:
If you allow that many Proxies then it's not the games rules fault but your own houserules you have to deal with that kinda crap. Game rules clearly state you need the appropriate models as per WYSIWYG, if you are dropping that you can't really blame it all on GW when problems like this come up.

hold on, are you trying to tell me, that by letting someone proxy chaos rhinos or sister of battle rhinos as space marine or grey knight rhinos, somehow its the players fault that the rules are now full of loopholes. Or that using terminators for the base sizes to represent chaos obliterators somehow frees GW from the responsibility of even trying to balance a game sorely in need of it?

Orktavius wrote:
If you allow that many Proxies then it's not the games rules fault but your own houserules you have to deal with that kinda crap.

Would the list be somehow more fun to play against if it had all of the correct models...?

Yes because it would actually look pretty...which I find tends to go a long way to fix that. On top of that, really not all that scary....is rolling 8-10 dice to make sure the power goes off while avoiding double 6's to peril really that much worse than a ld 10 test? Far more likely to kill themselves and summoning greater demons with a brotherhood of psykers unit kill the whole unit...assuming the power was rolled in the first place. Even summoning more horrors doesn't really do much as killing t3 models with 5+ saves is easy. Hell, if anything this list is a turkey shoot to play as they are doing NOTHING to you the first few turns while they try and summon stuff so you simply rip them a new one. Pretty easy to win when your opponent isn't fighting back because they are to busy summoning models. If it's as mentioned here demons with grey knights....COOL I'll put my whole army at the grey knights first turn while your summoning 200-300 points of demons then kill the demons next turn.

 insaniak wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
If you allow that many Proxies then it's not the games rules fault but your own houserules you have to deal with that kinda crap.

Would the list be somehow more fun to play against if it had all of the correct models...?

Of course it wouldn't the list is the list.

This is the last ditch effort of apologist trying to save a system by way of thinking that if less people are able to do it, then it is less broken...

Grey Knights + Eldar?

GK Mana battery + Iyanden list which would be:

Eldrad
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
Spiritseer

Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock

Bikes
Bikes

Wraithknight

Orktavius wrote:
Yes because it would actually look pretty...which I find tends to go a long way to fix that. On top of that, really not all that scary....is rolling 8-10 dice to make sure the power goes off while avoiding double 6's to peril really that much worse than a ld 10 test? Far more likely to kill themselves and summoning greater demons with a brotherhood of psykers unit kill the whole unit...assuming the power was rolled in the first place. Even summoning more horrors doesn't really do much as killing t3 models with 5+ saves is easy. Hell, if anything this list is a turkey shoot to play as they are doing NOTHING to you the first few turns while they try and summon stuff so you simply rip them a new one. Pretty easy to win when your opponent isn't fighting back because they are to busy summoning models. If it's as mentioned here demons with grey knights....COOL I'll put my whole army at the grey knights first turn while your summoning 200-300 points of demons then kill the demons next turn.

I don't think you have actually seen this kind of army in game. Using only 4 to 5 dice 10 times avoids a lot of double 6s, and deamons don't suffer perils on any doubles to summon deamons. You average 4 or 5 squads of deamons a turn. This is not nearly as insignificant as you appear to think it is.

As a GK player, I try to avoid cheezy builds as much as possible. I have a homebrewed Mordrak, 10 terminator/paladins, 10 PAKG, 1 Godhammer Landraider, 1 LR Redeemer, 3 Dreads (in the process of magnetizing as psyflemen), an inquisitor and a vindicare assassin. (Edit) Oops, nearly forgot my terminator armored Librarian.

No coteaz, no inquisitor retinue spam, no razorback spam, and no dreadknight silliness. Fun, fluffy, and occasionally competitive. Feth these cheesetastic builds that keep popping up.