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The shop owner of the FLGS and I have been back and forth over and over about how the new detachments system works.

Imo its in plain english and reads exactly so that you can and should be able to abuse the gak out of it.

Whats stopping anyone from running 10 Libs and 10 Barebones Tac Squads and rolling on deamonology to get posession or sacrifice and using deamons from said spells to make more daemons ?

Essentially abusing the psychic phase to tip the points values and have leverage in the game?

--------

I reckon you are able to take 2 HQ / 2 Troops over and over if you wanted and still be within the limits of a bound army, as well as having access to 3 of each slot PER chart as you do this.



The shop owner seems to think that I am wrong in some fashion.

The Detachment Rules have been made for flexibility, no denying that.

Personally, I wonder if the Authors have adopted the concept that we can police ourselves well enough that we don't need to be overly bound to a strict format but should have Rules which encourage us to make agreements ahead of the game. Within friendly games there is always the option to simply say no to any Army that is clearly designed to be overly cheesy, simply take a few moments before the game to review the two Armies about to face off. Tournaments are obviously going to have their own rules in place when it comes to these things, so that has never been an issue, and we can expect Unglued lists to be illegal in such an environment.

The problem is given that the game is growing you potentially have people who are looking to make lists that abuse the rules as well as min max

 Awfeel wrote:
The problem is given that the game is growing you potentially have people who are looking to make lists that abuse the rules as well as min max

That SM list is not abusive.

 Awfeel wrote:
Whats stopping anyone from running 10 Libs and 10 Barebones Tac Squads and rolling on deamonology to get posession or sacrifice and using deamons from said spells to make more daemons ?

The fact that it is not all that good of an army.

10 Libs and 10 Barebones Tac Squads equate to about 1400 points.

You will have 10 power dice + whatever you roll.

Summoning costs 3 warp charges, so 6 or 7 dice to have a good chance to cast it, but not at all automatic. You also Auto Perils so the psyker takes a wound usually. So you can cast this at least once, sometimes twice on the first turn.

Then you get a unit of 10 pink horrors that give you 1 warp charge and know 1 demonology spell. If you get 2 castings off, you have 12 power dice to play with, assuming your enemy didn't kill anything.

All in all not that powerful. But you are correct that you can take 10 librarians and 10 tac squads by taking 5 Combined Arms Detachments.

On to daemons, they get a little more powerful.

Daemons get a lot more power dice at about the same point cost. They can have about 35 power dice at the 1250 level and they do not auto perils on any doubles on Demonology, just double 6's. That is 5 summoning tries with 7 dice each.

Again not all that powerful because you don't kill anything for the first few turns of the game.

You are correct, but I think it's more that the idea sounds scary at first and then you realise how hard it's going to be for you.

You peril on any double if you're not a daemon and your opponent can be rolling an equally powerful psychic list to deny you knowing that if he forces you to roll higher volumes of dice that you'll possibly kill your librarians faster than he can. You only have 10 + D6 warp charge on powers that need an average of 6 dice to manifest...

If you roll on possession for example with 6 dice (since you need 3 4+s) then you will peril 99.9% of the time as you automatically peril on any double and if you fail the psychic test on top failing the test 50% of the time and not manifesting the power. If you roll 7 dice, you will peril 100% of the time. And he will possibly just throw all his dice in to try and deny you so you will be using this psychic power knowing that you intend to kill your librarian. So, better hope it's not kill points?

Also, with a more specialised list than than barebones marines any vehicles, elites and upgraded troops will start squashing your tac squads and summoned heralds.

I think one thing to consider is if at this point you're thinking "Well, I'll just use the heralds and summoned daemons to get more and replace my losses". To which my response would be "why not just play daemons?".

Or you could have 27 Psyker Inquisitors in 1500 points then try to do the summoning.

Can't summons get into my vehicles since they're a summoned by a power from a unit in the C:SM Codex?

And then I would ask why not have scouts instead?

Believe they are cheaper.

Killing things on the first few turns is not vital unless the tactical cards say so

Games are not won in the first few turns.

--

I would argue that turning my 100 pt model into a Greater Unclean One is fairly substantial, but doing it 5-6 times is much more unbalanced, given that I could support them with hail of gunfire, also something that daemons codex has no access to afaik

---

Edit

What about the potential for having 2 HQ 4 Troop 6 Heavy Supp choices? It just seems like the game is getting spammy-er

Why not play unbound and take Coteaz and 77 henchmen units of psyker and 2 alcolytes.
Gives you 80 to 85 dice, throwing 8 dice at each summons.
You're likely to lose a psyker with each attempt, but turning a 10 point psyker into a unit of 10 daemons is points effective.

-Matt

 Awfeel wrote:
Killing things on the first few turns is not vital unless the tactical cards say so

Point being your opponent will be killing your stuff and you will have only a few bolter shots to throw hiw way the first few turns.

Games are not won in the first few turns.

sometimes they are.

I would argue that turning my 100 pt model into a Greater Unclean One is fairly substantial, but doing it 5-6 times is much more unbalanced, given that I could support them with hail of gunfire, also something that daemons codex has no access to afaik

Sure you could, but you need possession. out of 10 librarians you should get possession all of 1.66 times. so one daemon and 10 tac squads with bolters. Good luck killing that Tyranid MC army. Or that Guard tank army, or that guard gunline army or that, well you get the point.

What about the potential for having 2 HQ 4 Troop 6 Heavy Supp choices? It just seems like the game is getting spammy-er

not as powerful as you might think.

Remember that conjurations have to Deep Strike onto the board so there is always a chance you will lose those creatures.

sonicaucie wrote:
You are correct, but I think it's more that the idea sounds scary at first and then you realise how hard it's going to be for you.

You peril on any double if you're not a daemon and your opponent can be rolling an equally powerful psychic list to deny you knowing that if he forces you to roll higher volumes of dice that you'll possibly kill your librarians faster than he can. You only have 10 + D6 warp charge on powers that need an average of 6 dice to manifest...

If you roll on possession for example with 6 dice (since you need 3 4+s) then you will peril 99.9% of the time as you automatically peril on any double and if you fail the psychic test on top failing the test 50% of the time and not manifesting the power. If you roll 7 dice, you will peril 100% of the time. And he will possibly just throw all his dice in to try and deny you so you will be using this psychic power knowing that you intend to kill your librarian. So, better hope it's not kill points?

Also, with a more specialised list than than barebones marines any vehicles, elites and upgraded troops will start squashing your tac squads and summoned heralds.

I think one thing to consider is if at this point you're thinking "Well, I'll just use the heralds and summoned daemons to get more and replace my losses". To which my response would be "why not just play daemons?".

Your math is off btw. No way in hell throwing 6 dice gets you a 99.9% chance for a double and no way in hell 7 dice gets you a 100% chance.

Zodiark wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:
You are correct, but I think it's more that the idea sounds scary at first and then you realise how hard it's going to be for you.

You peril on any double if you're not a daemon and your opponent can be rolling an equally powerful psychic list to deny you knowing that if he forces you to roll higher volumes of dice that you'll possibly kill your librarians faster than he can. You only have 10 + D6 warp charge on powers that need an average of 6 dice to manifest...

If you roll on possession for example with 6 dice (since you need 3 4+s) then you will peril 99.9% of the time as you automatically peril on any double and if you fail the psychic test on top failing the test 50% of the time and not manifesting the power. If you roll 7 dice, you will peril 100% of the time. And he will possibly just throw all his dice in to try and deny you so you will be using this psychic power knowing that you intend to kill your librarian. So, better hope it's not kill points?

Also, with a more specialised list than than barebones marines any vehicles, elites and upgraded troops will start squashing your tac squads and summoned heralds.

I think one thing to consider is if at this point you're thinking "Well, I'll just use the heralds and summoned daemons to get more and replace my losses". To which my response would be "why not just play daemons?".

Your math is off btw. No way in hell throwing 6 dice gets you a 99.9% chance for a double and no way in hell 7 dice gets you a 100% chance.

7 dice is absolutely guaranteed to have at least one double. Absolute fact.
6 dice isn't 99% of the time though.

Zodiark wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:
You are correct, but I think it's more that the idea sounds scary at first and then you realise how hard it's going to be for you.

You peril on any double if you're not a daemon and your opponent can be rolling an equally powerful psychic list to deny you knowing that if he forces you to roll higher volumes of dice that you'll possibly kill your librarians faster than he can. You only have 10 + D6 warp charge on powers that need an average of 6 dice to manifest...

If you roll on possession for example with 6 dice (since you need 3 4+s) then you will peril 99.9% of the time as you automatically peril on any double and if you fail the psychic test on top failing the test 50% of the time and not manifesting the power. If you roll 7 dice, you will peril 100% of the time. And he will possibly just throw all his dice in to try and deny you so you will be using this psychic power knowing that you intend to kill your librarian. So, better hope it's not kill points?

Also, with a more specialised list than than barebones marines any vehicles, elites and upgraded troops will start squashing your tac squads and summoned heralds.

I think one thing to consider is if at this point you're thinking "Well, I'll just use the heralds and summoned daemons to get more and replace my losses". To which my response would be "why not just play daemons?".

Your math is off btw. No way in hell throwing 6 dice gets you a 99.9% chance for a double and no way in hell 7 dice gets you a 100% chance.

Throwing 6 dice you have a 98.4% chance of getting a double.

Throwing 7 dice does actually have 100% chance of giving you a double.

I throw seven dice, the results are 1,2,3,4,5,6,3 so the 3 is a double. no matter how you work it, you always get at least one double on 7+ dice.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:
You are correct, but I think it's more that the idea sounds scary at first and then you realise how hard it's going to be for you.

You peril on any double if you're not a daemon and your opponent can be rolling an equally powerful psychic list to deny you knowing that if he forces you to roll higher volumes of dice that you'll possibly kill your librarians faster than he can. You only have 10 + D6 warp charge on powers that need an average of 6 dice to manifest...

If you roll on possession for example with 6 dice (since you need 3 4+s) then you will peril 99.9% of the time as you automatically peril on any double and if you fail the psychic test on top failing the test 50% of the time and not manifesting the power. If you roll 7 dice, you will peril 100% of the time. And he will possibly just throw all his dice in to try and deny you so you will be using this psychic power knowing that you intend to kill your librarian. So, better hope it's not kill points?

Also, with a more specialised list than than barebones marines any vehicles, elites and upgraded troops will start squashing your tac squads and summoned heralds.

I think one thing to consider is if at this point you're thinking "Well, I'll just use the heralds and summoned daemons to get more and replace my losses". To which my response would be "why not just play daemons?".

Your math is off btw. No way in hell throwing 6 dice gets you a 99.9% chance for a double and no way in hell 7 dice gets you a 100% chance.

Throwing 6 dice you have a 98.4% chance of getting a double.

Throwing 7 dice does actually have 100% chance of giving you a double.

I throw seven dice, the results are 1,2,3,4,5,6,3 so the 3 is a double. no matter how you work it, you always get at least one double on 7+ dice.

Yeah I get that, was reading you have a 100% for all doubles lol.

Still, it's nowhere as bad as he is making it out to be

Zodiark wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:
You are correct, but I think it's more that the idea sounds scary at first and then you realise how hard it's going to be for you.

You peril on any double if you're not a daemon and your opponent can be rolling an equally powerful psychic list to deny you knowing that if he forces you to roll higher volumes of dice that you'll possibly kill your librarians faster than he can. You only have 10 + D6 warp charge on powers that need an average of 6 dice to manifest...

If you roll on possession for example with 6 dice (since you need 3 4+s) then you will peril 99.9% of the time as you automatically peril on any double and if you fail the psychic test on top failing the test 50% of the time and not manifesting the power. If you roll 7 dice, you will peril 100% of the time. And he will possibly just throw all his dice in to try and deny you so you will be using this psychic power knowing that you intend to kill your librarian. So, better hope it's not kill points?

Also, with a more specialised list than than barebones marines any vehicles, elites and upgraded troops will start squashing your tac squads and summoned heralds.

I think one thing to consider is if at this point you're thinking "Well, I'll just use the heralds and summoned daemons to get more and replace my losses". To which my response would be "why not just play daemons?".

Your math is off btw. No way in hell throwing 6 dice gets you a 99.9% chance for a double and no way in hell 7 dice gets you a 100% chance.

Throwing 6 dice you have a 98.4% chance of getting a double.

Throwing 7 dice does actually have 100% chance of giving you a double.

I throw seven dice, the results are 1,2,3,4,5,6,3 so the 3 is a double. no matter how you work it, you always get at least one double on 7+ dice.

Yeah I get that, was reading you have a 100% for all doubles lol.

Still, it's nowhere as bad as he is making it out to be

What?

It is as bad as he's making it out to be.

You perils on seven dice.

Fact. No matter what.

 Awfeel wrote:
You perils on seven dice.

Fact. No matter what.

Yes, and you get a double 98.4% of the time with six dice.

So you will usually get a result that envokes a perils of the warp result when using 6 dice to cast daemonology-malefic if you are not a daemon.

And you will always get a result that envokes a perils of the warp result when using 7 dice to cast daemonology-malefic if you are not a daemon.

 Awfeel wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:
You are correct, but I think it's more that the idea sounds scary at first and then you realise how hard it's going to be for you.

You peril on any double if you're not a daemon and your opponent can be rolling an equally powerful psychic list to deny you knowing that if he forces you to roll higher volumes of dice that you'll possibly kill your librarians faster than he can. You only have 10 + D6 warp charge on powers that need an average of 6 dice to manifest...

If you roll on possession for example with 6 dice (since you need 3 4+s) then you will peril 99.9% of the time as you automatically peril on any double and if you fail the psychic test on top failing the test 50% of the time and not manifesting the power. If you roll 7 dice, you will peril 100% of the time. And he will possibly just throw all his dice in to try and deny you so you will be using this psychic power knowing that you intend to kill your librarian. So, better hope it's not kill points?

Also, with a more specialised list than than barebones marines any vehicles, elites and upgraded troops will start squashing your tac squads and summoned heralds.

I think one thing to consider is if at this point you're thinking "Well, I'll just use the heralds and summoned daemons to get more and replace my losses". To which my response would be "why not just play daemons?".

Your math is off btw. No way in hell throwing 6 dice gets you a 99.9% chance for a double and no way in hell 7 dice gets you a 100% chance.

Throwing 6 dice you have a 98.4% chance of getting a double.

Throwing 7 dice does actually have 100% chance of giving you a double.

I throw seven dice, the results are 1,2,3,4,5,6,3 so the 3 is a double. no matter how you work it, you always get at least one double on 7+ dice.

Yeah I get that, was reading you have a 100% for all doubles lol.

Still, it's nowhere as bad as he is making it out to be

What?

It is as bad as he's making it out to be.

You perils on seven dice.

Fact. No matter what.

One peril is nothing though

Remember you perils every time you cast if you use 7 dice with non daemons. and 98.4% of the time on six dice.

Seriously try it out, but it is not as good as it looks on paper, unless you get really lucky and get Posession on every psyker. but even then you will have a tough time casting that spell more than once a round.

Zodiark wrote:


One peril is nothing though

Guess that depends on how many wounds the psyker has, what you roll on the perils chart, whether or not you pass your LD test, and so on and so forth. He's likely taking a wound (automatic 4 out of 6 for that) One peril can destroy the psyker and hurt any squad he's joined to. Or it can buff him into super-psyker. So, May the odds be ever in your favor....

The new perils chart doesnt have a lot of leadership tests does it?

Only like three of them.

What is the cheapest psyker unit / HQ in 40k right now that could do this?

Orks? With like 60pt grot units or something?

 Awfeel wrote:
The new perils chart doesnt have a lot of leadership tests does it?

Only like three of them.

What is the cheapest psyker unit / HQ in 40k right now that could do this?

Orks? With like 60pt grot units or something?

Daemons.

Herald of Tzeencth is 95 points for a mastery level 3 psyker and you can have 8 of them in one force org chart. with 2 units of pink horrors all for about 1000 points.

Added bonus you do not perils on any double with demons casting Malefic powers. they only perils on double 6's.

 DeathReaper wrote:


Herald of Tzeencth is 95 points for a mastery level 3 psyker and you can have 8 of them in one force org chart.

4, actually. Each Daemonic Detachment "may include up to four." If you want more than 4, you need a second detachment.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


Herald of Tzeencth is 95 points for a mastery level 3 psyker and you can have 8 of them in one force org chart.

4, actually. Each Daemonic Detachment "may include up to four." If you want more than 4, you need a second detachment.

4 hearalds per HQ slot, that is what the Chaos Daemon codex says anyway.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


Herald of Tzeencth is 95 points for a mastery level 3 psyker and you can have 8 of them in one force org chart.

4, actually. Each Daemonic Detachment "may include up to four." If you want more than 4, you need a second detachment.

4 hearalds per HQ slot, that is what the Chaos Daemon codex says anyway.

you can only do that once, not for each HQ slot

 CrownAxe wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


Herald of Tzeencth is 95 points for a mastery level 3 psyker and you can have 8 of them in one force org chart.

4, actually. Each Daemonic Detachment "may include up to four." If you want more than 4, you need a second detachment.

4 hearalds per HQ slot, that is what the Chaos Daemon codex says anyway.

you can only do that once, not for each HQ slot

Where does it say that, because that is not in the Daemon codex.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


Herald of Tzeencth is 95 points for a mastery level 3 psyker and you can have 8 of them in one force org chart.

4, actually. Each Daemonic Detachment "may include up to four." If you want more than 4, you need a second detachment.

4 hearalds per HQ slot, that is what the Chaos Daemon codex says anyway.

you can only do that once, not for each HQ slot

Where does it say that, because that is not in the Daemon codex.

It says "you can take 4 heralds per detachment" with a follow up that those 4 heralds take one HQ slot. Thats a hard cap on how many heralds you get period.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


Herald of Tzeencth is 95 points for a mastery level 3 psyker and you can have 8 of them in one force org chart.

4, actually. Each Daemonic Detachment "may include up to four." If you want more than 4, you need a second detachment.

4 hearalds per HQ slot, that is what the Chaos Daemon codex says anyway.

you can only do that once, not for each HQ slot

Where does it say that, because that is not in the Daemon codex.

It says "you can take 4 heralds per detachment" with a follow up that those 4 heralds take one HQ slot. Thats a hard cap on how many heralds you get period.

In the codex it states in a primary detachment you can take 4 heralds in one slot. That means you can take 8 in a primary detachment. Unless it has been FAQ'd, youre reading this the wrong way round.

the codex said you could take one unit of 4 per Primary Detachment , now its one unit per detachment in the FAQ.

Chaos Daemons codex Page 94: "Each Primary(FAQ deletes this word) detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos, chosen in any combination from the following models:"

4 only per detachment, Per the codex.

Ah OK - no longer the argument over 4-1 in allies, as well, bonus

it's a silly concept, but you may as well make the Libby Lvl 2 for 20 dice and have 50pts to spare to add some multimeltas. Still, 20+D6 dice is not enough for what you want to achieve and to shore up the liabilities in the army. But as a concept, yes, totally legal.