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I wonder if there is a qualifier for taking assault squads as troops. Somewhat like DA Ravenguard or Deathwing.

www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php
if true looks like a definite confirm

Posted By Asmodai on 04/17/2007 10:55 AM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/17/2007 10:26 AM

Posted By Orlanth on 04/17/2007 8:47 AM
I will wait on Combat Squads. Just because you can split a ten marine squad doesnt mean you MUST take only 5 or 10 marines and cannot have heavy weapons without ten marines. That is a seperate rule and a restriction that looks like it is for DA alone.

That would make Blood Angels better at shooting than Dark Angels.  This makes sense because it is Super Fluffy.

It is. Dark Angels are atoning for their descent into Chaos by having 10,000 years of deliberately sub-par tactics and organization.

You realize that the DA tactics are really the tactics of all codex Space Marines.  Its not like Guillaman wrote in Codex: "All Space Marine squads should be six men so that our opponents must kill 4 before they score any victory points..."

Back OT, it sounds like the BA are getting to be more characterful with cleaner rules and less abusive builds.  If Chaos and SM redux follow suit, its going to be a better game for all.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Well, I have a feeling that when Codex: SM gets redone Raven Guard will go back to being Ultramarines with a different color scheme.

Well, the WD329 nugget *is* true, as my White Dwarf has that same little box.

I like the current build on Ravengaurd and in the current fluff they make extensive use of scouts. I envision it something like this:

Chaplain jump pack.
Shrike and his gaurd
3 Elites with furios charge
3 Assault marine/tornados
3-6 scout squads

In essense you can still take 7 jump infantry type squads. 3 with Furious charge. Not to shabby.  Throw in Shrikes scout and special rules and it may be effective.  Anyone tried a similiar build.

Zoned, did you catch anything about the assault marines as troops? Was there a qualifier for it?

But the problem with that is BA were never classified as an assault army. They are a codex chapter that has a DC due to a geneseed flaw. Other than that they follow the doctrines of the Codex Astartes. So no, having them take assault marines as troops is a horrible idea and pisses on their fluff.

Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 04/17/2007 1:36 PM

I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements.

But the problem with that is BA were never classified as an assault army. They are a codex chapter that has a DC due to a geneseed flaw. Other than that they follow the doctrines of the Codex Astartes. So no, having them take assault marines as troops is a horrible idea and pisses on their fluff.

Capt K

maybe the fact that "The new fluff will emphasize the BA’s progressing descent into madness and the degenerative effects of their gene flaw" will explain a little bit of it?.  BA were my first 40k army 7-8 years ago when i started playing and I kinda like the new changes.

Fluff? Please the only time GW bothers with the 40k background is to justify some silly rules decision. The general concepts remain, but the details change from book to book. I think this has more to do with GW realizing that there really isn't a big enough difference between BAs, DAs, & Ultras to justify three codexes. So now their expanding on the Vampire/ Assault themes to explain a new book. That's why we got the Furioso and Baal the last time around. Otherwise they would be listed under the chapters of legend in the Marine codex.

Fluff or no fluff I still recall 3rd ed. Rhino rush BA army of doom and having the jump packers to compensate seems to be a move to restore them to thier previous assault capabilities. It will just be called the jump pack rush. I think with the current tournemant enviornment GW has to realise that assault armies have become almost none existant. Mobile assault armies need to make a come back. With the high mobility of skimmer armies thier needs to be a way of actually catching and assaulting them. Same goes for Tyranid MC lists make it at least possible to deliver a fist to beat down some of thier beasts before your whole army dies to shootiness. Ever see a dedicated Khorne army try to bring down skimmers (Falcons) painfull and futile to watch.

Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/17/2007 1:51 PM
Fluff? Please the only time GW bothers with the 40k background is to justify some silly rules decision. The general concepts remain, but the details change from book to book. I think this has more to do with GW realizing that there really isn't a big enough difference between BAs, DAs, & Ultras to justify three codexes. So now their expanding on the Vampire/ Assault themes to explain a new book. That's why we got the Furioso and Baal the last time around. Otherwise they would be listed under the chapters of legend in the Marine codex.

Maybe they can't justify them rules-wise, but they can justify them from a business standpoint.  With the DA release we got a whole bunch of new models, which seem to be selling well (don't have any hard facts, just anecdotally).  The big Chapters have enough of a following to justify releasing a special codex for them.  Again, this is anecdotal but there seem to be more DA or BA players than Dark Eldar (in my group there are 3 DA players, I'm the only Dark Eldar player).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

It's no different then Dark Angels taking terminators as troops. Or bikes as troops.

Blood Angels have always been codex marines with a slant towards cc (unlike Space Wolves which are non-codex marines with a slant towards cc). Having Jump troops as troops isn't exactly "pissing on the fluff" its just expanding on an already existing idea.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Besides which,Sanquinius,the BA Primarch had WINGS and could fly.  It's very fluffy for his chapter to try and mimick this with Jump Packs.

All in all,though,Assault Troops are one option for a Troops choice.  I highly doubt there will be anything in the list says "You have to take at least one unit of Jump Pack Assault Troops."  If you want to play them as Codex Marines with a bent towards Jump Packs and CC,then you still can. 

BA have a tonne of fluff stating that the legion/chapter has always excelled in assault. For me these rumors are extremely exciting!

- Greenie

Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/17/2007 1:51 PM
Fluff? Please the only time GW bothers with the 40k background is to justify some silly rules decision. The general concepts remain, but the details change from book to book. I think this has more to do with GW realizing that there really isn't a big enough difference between BAs, DAs, & Ultras to justify three codexes. So now their expanding on the Vampire/ Assault themes to explain a new book. That's why we got the Furioso and Baal the last time around. Otherwise they would be listed under the chapters of legend in the Marine codex.

Quoted for truthiness.  This is why when the vanilla marine codex gets redone (whenever that is) you will see the fluff for chapters like White Scars, Iron Hands, and Salamanders retconned to make them into strict codex chapters (or at least as strict as Ultramarines).

And when the new Chaos codex comes out you may see some new fluff: "Surprise!  All the Chaos legions disbanded!  Now they only fight under the banner of Abaddon's Black Legion.  And all the Khorne bikers and Tzeentch terminators got eaten by Tyranids.  Or something."

Ultimately sales determine which armies get their own rules.  Once it's been determined that an army is getting its own rules then they've got to invent some way to make that army different enough that it's not just a reprint of another army.  If this means that fluff has to be thrown out or modified then that's what happens.  Sales drive rules and rules drive fluff.  This is why there is more rules variation between nominally "codex" marine chapters (DA, BA) than there is among all the regiments of the Imperial Guard.

Crimson and Abby - You wouldn't want to be spreading lies like that! It might upset B&C and the marine diehards at warseer.

I really don't see what the army list has to do with the fluff. So the army list lets you take assault marines as troops. If you play a battle company, just don't use more than two assault squads. If you play the 6th company, use up to ten assault squads. I don't see the big deal.

To Toreador:

There was no qualifier - just straight up, Assault Marines are Troops, with the same options as the Dark Angel Space Marines (don't forget the +15pts for the Death Company member, though.)

Zoned

Zoned:

Do you remember anything about the "jump" psychic power?

Are Sanguinary High Priests still an HQ choice?

Are Assault squads Fast Attack as well?

a 'new' BA list, Foundation paints including a decent red (at last), and I've got a pile of jump packs on the shelf. Clearly the gods are telling me to build an all jump-pack BA army...

To Winterman

The difference is -if these rumours are true, you dont need a character to take them as troops, which is a big departure from standard established fluff.

Regardless of what the BA excell at, the fluff since way back when has made them a generally codex aderat chapter.

Time will tell though.

I have a whole load of BA with jump pack that are still waiting for me to learn how to paint Red quickly so It makes no problem for me.

Posted By Morticon on 04/17/2007 11:21 PM
Regardless of what the BA excell at, the fluff since way back when has made them a generally codex aderat chapter.

Not anymore.  Now they are a non-codex chapter with major divergence.  This is because they sell well and thus need to have their own codex with majorly divergent rules so as to facilitate the milking of them for more sweet $$$.  Maybe if Ultramarines sell well enough they can be majorly divergent too!

I can understand sales determining who gets released first, who gets the most attention and new models, and even who gets the most powerful rules.  But throwing out long established fluff so that you can release a "BLOOD ANGELS :heart: JUMP PACK ATTACK!!  HURR!" codex is just lame.  It's not like fanbois won't buy it if you don't give them assault marines as Troops.

And Abba, I would reserve judgment until you see the trial dex. DA are mostly codex with some divergence also. Ravenwing, Deathwing. So maybe BA have a few more Jump Pack guys. It's an interesting difference from the Space Wolf and Black Templar assault troops.

Capt K

 I think with the current tournemant enviornment GW has to realise that assault armies have become almost none existant. Mobile assault armies need to make a come back.

DA are a codex chapter w/divergence?

Does sucking count as a minor or major divergence? ;-)

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/18/2007 4:50 AM

But throwing out long established fluff so that you can release a "BLOOD ANGELS :heart: JUMP PACK ATTACK!!  HURR!" codex is just lame.  It's not like fanbois won't buy it if you don't give them assault marines as Troops.

And the fact that Assault Marines are $45 for five (here anyway) has, of course, nothing to do with it either.

$45!?!?! Yikes.