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I agree with Abadabadoobaddon. WTF with rending? That is the dumbest part of all these rules. S-T-U-P-I-D. Additionally I think that taking assault marines as troops is lame as well. In their earlier fluff, these guys were a codex chapter with a flaw in their geneseed. That is why they have the DC. Other than that, their fighting formations is strictly codex....making them into a full on dedicated assault army is slowed.

Capt K

We can always hope that the all-assault marine Blood Angels list is just their version of the Deathwing or Ravenwing. That way they are still a codex chapter, it just represents a certain company within the chapter.

Posted By Toreador on 04/16/2007 2:47 PM
Of all the complaints I have seen about combat squads, that one strikes me as funny. What happens when a guy dies, do they never get back in because they can't fill it upl?

You've never had your razorbacks shot out from under you as you advanced?  My opponents almost ALWAYS seem to be able to destroy at least one of mine.  Being able to put that extra Marine inside plays to the biggest advantage Marine squads have - survivability.  It's just a numbers game.

But they are deh VAMPIRE MARINEZ!!!! The are deh roxors in fighting!!!!

Blood Angels got free Furious Charge and DC weapons before and retardedly good CC options. Then they got rending ACs. Meanwhile WEs were busy charging vehicles they couldn't hurt and paying for their chain axes and skills. Apparently GW decided that BAs needed Rending in CC too since daemonettes have it and DC are *obviously* very similar.

Meh, so what else is new. I just hope they are brokenly good so I don't even have to think about what to buy next....

Poor orcs..

ONe could always play WE or similar chapters using BA rules. DC are just "berzerker elites."

Plus you get assult cannons buahahaha. Take that Imperial scum!

I will wait on Combat Squads. Just because you can split a ten marine squad doesnt mean you MUST take only 5 or 10 marines and cannot have heavy weapons without ten marines. That is a seperate rule and a restriction that looks like it is for DA alone.
I would even be happy if it said I must have a Vet sgt to use the combat squad rule, as that would be a fair tradeoff.

Every chapter, except possibly Space Wolves should be able to split a ten marine squad (with vet sgt) into two combat squads. Ultras certainly should as in Battle of Macragge they do.

I don't think combat squads is a DA alone thing. They killed two birds with one stone. Cheap tac squads with heavy weapons and min/maxing.

But I also like the DA codex and do well with it at the moment. Combat squads is the wave of the future. Most codex chapters don't do things ad-hoc. They are very ritualized and regimented. Combat squads follows this.

And remember. The Blood Angels list is a get buy test list.

Until we see the whole thing, no reason to get bent out of shape about any of it. We don't know costs or what is really true.

The local GW has a copy of the rules and has been showing them off. Most of the rumours are true, with a few minor differences. One thing that stood out in particular was how over the top Mephiston was - WS - 6, S - 5, T - 5, I - 6, Feel no Pain, and can cast all 3 Powers and use his Force Weapon in one turn (Jump, +D3 Attacks, Force Weapon...)

When I got my grubby hands on the list, I tried finding a way to max out Death Company as cheaply as possible (while building a decent all rounded list,) but it's pretty hard without paying the "full" cost. For example, a Tactical squad costs 115pts for the Veteran Sergeant and 4 Marines, and the extra 25pts nets you one Death Company (getting the extra Combat squad still only costs 75pts.) Whereas Assault Marines costs 140pts for the Veteran Sergeant and 4 Marines, and the extra 15 pts nets you one Death Company. You can add Death Company without buying squads, but then they cost 30pts a model. Interestingly, Blood Angel Terminators have the same stats and options as Deathwing (without mixing weapons, Fearless, and Deathwing assault,) costs 200pts, and still net you a Death Company as well (so arguably, the Death Company is FREE.)

Overall, I am pretty happy with the list, and as gross as Death Company are (they get Furious Charge built in, BTW,) it's pretty tough to max them out and have enough points for lots of shooty guns and/or support assault units.

so Zoned, did the BA also only get the option of one AC per squad?

Yes, along with the extra points (30.)

Very interesting, Space Marine Redux could be quite a change if they keep following this pattern....

Hmm. It would appear that the termies of the future are to only have one heavy weapon... The bright side is that at least the boxed set will match the options for once....lol...:rolls eyes:

Capt K

And after having a Termie unit deep strike behind my orks with 2 AC last weekend, I really, really can't wait for one AC. Right now all the rest of the terminator squad is ablative wounds for those two nasty cannons.

May Assault squads be taken as Troop picks?  Please say no.

Does the Sanguinary High Priest still exist as a HQ pick?

Do you remember what the "jump" psychic power does?

Wow. Someone deep struck in a unit with 2 AC's? what a surprise. lol....like we haven't seen that before...hehe. I for one am glad the marines are getting reigned in finally...maybe it will motivate me to start playing them again. AC lists are so boring to play with and against...yawn. I really hope assault squads don't become troop choices...that still irks me.

Capt K

Posted By koyote on 04/17/2007 9:21 AM

May Assault squads be taken as Troop picks?  Please say no.

Looks like a return to the 3rd edition rulebook list.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/17/2007 9:28 AM
Looks like a return to the 3rd edition rulebook list.

If only. I think this game seemed a hell of a lot more balanced then. Remember when orks could take an 'uge choppa and not necessarily lose combat?

I kinda wish the 5 man combat squad choice  allowed either a  heavy or a special weapon, but no vet sarge. Nothing's wrong with 15 point plasma guns and we all know marines needed to get nerfed a bit, but it feels like Jervis Johnson's leading you around by a ring through your nose with these new lists.

EDIT: I was wrong, combat squads should be able to get a heavy but should have to take a vet. That way the marines cost about 18 points each, which is close to the amount that they should cost.

I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements.

Posted By Lemartes on 04/17/2007 9:46 AM
I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements.

I'd be much happier if that option were reserved for ravenguard.  They seem much more the jump pack brigade. Having said that I'm ok with a horde O packers if they are paying for the packs. That makes them expensive but powerful.  Anything to keep from playing drop pod/teleport marine army game number 237.

Posted By Orlanth on 04/17/2007 8:47 AM
I will wait on Combat Squads. Just because you can split a ten marine squad doesnt mean you MUST take only 5 or 10 marines and cannot have heavy weapons without ten marines. That is a seperate rule and a restriction that looks like it is for DA alone.

That would make Blood Angels better at shooting than Dark Angels.  This makes sense because it is Super Fluffy.

Posted By koyote on 04/17/2007 9:21 AM
Do you remember what the "jump" psychic power does?

Posted By jfrazell on 04/17/2007 10:01 AM

Posted By Lemartes on 04/17/2007 9:46 AM
I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements.

I'd be much happier if that option were reserved for ravenguard.  They seem much more the jump pack brigade. Having said that I'm ok with a horde O packers if they are paying for the packs. That makes them expensive but powerful.  Anything to keep from playing drop pod/teleport marine army game number 237.

I very much disagree with the above, espesially the bit in bold. I agree that the Raven Guard like Jump Packs but i strongly dissagree that Jump Packs are more appropriate for Raven Guard than Blood Angels.

They use their Jump Pack troops differently but the background indicates both Chapters Value this piece of equipment highly.

I was dead against giving BA assault squads as troops when i first heard the rumour but i have come around a little, tho i still dont think it is nessessary as our vets and Honour Guard represent a prefrence for Jump Pack Troops adiquitly for both the BA and RG.

Dispite there differing Tactics and the hostility between them i see them as looking very similar on paper. They are both mainly codex Chapters and they both like Jump Packs Alot. There biggest differences and the source of the hostility between them is there battlfield tactics.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/17/2007 10:26 AM

Posted By Orlanth on 04/17/2007 8:47 AM
I will wait on Combat Squads. Just because you can split a ten marine squad doesnt mean you MUST take only 5 or 10 marines and cannot have heavy weapons without ten marines. That is a seperate rule and a restriction that looks like it is for DA alone.

That would make Blood Angels better at shooting than Dark Angels.  This makes sense because it is Super Fluffy.

It is. Dark Angels are atoning for their descent into Chaos by having 10,000 years of deliberately sub-par tactics and organization.

Posted By Pandion40 on 04/17/2007 10:41 AM

Posted By jfrazell on 04/17/2007 10:01 AM

Posted By Lemartes on 04/17/2007 9:46 AM
I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements.

I'd be much happier if that option were reserved for ravenguard.  They seem much more the jump pack brigade. Having said that I'm ok with a horde O packers if they are paying for the packs. That makes them expensive but powerful.  Anything to keep from playing drop pod/teleport marine army game number 237.

I very much disagree with the above, espesially the bit in bold. I agree that the Raven Guard like Jump Packs but i strongly dissagree that Jump Packs are more appropriate for Raven Guard than Blood Angels.

They use their Jump Pack troops differently but the background indicates both Chapters Value this piece of equipment highly.

I was dead against giving BA assault squads as troops when i first heard the rumour but i have come around a little, tho i still dont think it is nessessary as our vets and Honour Guard represent a prefrence for Jump Pack Troops adiquitly for both the BA and RG.

Dispite there differing Tactics and the hostility between them i see them as looking very similar on paper. They are both mainly codex Chapters and they both like Jump Packs Alot. There biggest differences and the source of the hostility between them is there battlfield tactics.

Sorry I remember BA as a codex chapter, not focused on jump packing.  I may be mistaken in not keeping up with changes to recent fluff. When were they pack marines again?

Posted By jfrazell on 04/17/2007 10:58 AM
Sorry I remember BA as a codex chapter, not focused on jump packing.  I may be mistaken in not keeping up with changes to recent fluff. When were they pack marines again?

In the 3rd edition main rulebook they could take Assault Marines as troops.

Mmm.. so they really did change them from codex to slavering maniacs from 2nd to 3rd. That'll teach me to not keep current. Meh I still think they should reserve this for ravenguard. I see to much about them being a codex chapter. Air assault is not a codex trait.

Again having said that, if paying for their packs I have no problem with it.  After all how else are my world eaters and their rending Berzerkers going to get into HTH..er..sorry never mind.

BA, the new Khorne?

 

 

I don't mind it. It's perfectly reasonable to field a Codex Chapter with 6 or 9 Assault Squads too - most Chapters have an entire Assault Reserve Company, and it's certainly present in the fluff that Chapters (like the Ultras) have fielded reserve companies when necessary.

ANd Ravenguard are not a chapter with it's own book a the moment. They are still a variant in the main codex. There will be entirely different support for the two.

DA are really only worse vs normal marines, who it seems are going to get a big nerf bat.

jfrazell I did not say they are focused on jump packing I said they are a mainly codex chapter that likes Jump Packs and so their Vets have had access to jump packs since Codex: Angels Of Death.

I also said I do not see any need to give BA or RG assault squads as troops. I think giving vets jump packs is all that is required for both chapters.

It was the statement that it is somehow fluffier for Raven Guard to have assault squads as troops then for Blood Angels that I disagree with.

 

Might be interesting to use these rules for ravenguard though.

I don't see why you couldn't - especially as Death Company would seem to be entirely optional. Though you couldn't take Shrike in tournaments in that case.