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"However,BT are balanced by being forced to take a minimum 100 point character that doesn't fill the compulsary HQ slot. "

:S

LOL. True. I can't remember the last time I have seen terminators or bikes in a BA list. Scouts on the other hand you see plenty of with naked vet sgts. DC are great but they squish just as easy as everything else when a Dameon Prince comes out to play. I think the new DC are going to be worse than the old with rending. Now everything in the DC has the potential to take on uber characters/skimmers. IMO they are going to be much more flexible. Some I suppose will still say thier the cheese and undercosted at 30pts a model.

And I think statistically they aren't that much different than the old 3 powerfist DC guys overall... Though they have the chance of being highly destructive!

I think we will see a lot more variety in the Blood Angels.

I am curious though how they will affect the landscape with the amount of jump troops they will have. Tau and Necrons will have an interesting time of it.

I used two units of Termies in the RTT last Saturday. In the first and the third game I had three join the DC. lol

I think some of the sting will be taken out by having a smaller unit of DC, but people will still complain. I'm sure its just a matter of time before someone on Warseer starts a thread complaining about how cheesy the free frag and krak grenades are.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/26/2007 10:27 AM
"However,BT are balanced by being forced to take a minimum 100 point character that doesn't fill the compulsary HQ slot. "

:S

Not really.  However,being forced to take him and having five unit choices removed from your list does.

Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/26/2007 10:20 AM

I never said otherwise. What I said was that the DC are not free just really cheap. And I don't see how you can consider the Emperor's Champion a burden and not give that kind of slack to the BAs.

The current BAs needed new units because many of the existing ones turned to crap. Have you ever run a two man terminator squad? Or had an entire bike squad join the DC? How about lose a game because of the Black Rage? When these things happen most people will stop using these units and focus on the ones that do work well. Of course given that the standard response to seeing the Death Co. is curling up into a ball with tears in your eyes while sitting in a puddle of your own urine, I can see why you wouldn't notice.

Every try playing a 750 point game with BT's?  The EC,however,does become less of a handicap the larger of a game you play.  So,if you're playing 2500 points,no big deal.  However,even at 1500,I've seen the EC eat up enough points that someone would have much rather spent on a 5-man Las/Plas,Whirlwind,Predator Destructor,or Rhinos for CC squads.

I never had a problem with the way DC played.  However,the way the unit was undercosted was BS.  If I remember right,when you roll for DC,1-3 nothing happens,4-5 one guy joins,and on 6 one guy joins and roll again.  So,in 50% of your games,your Termies/bikes/whatever will be untouched and in 33%,you will only lose one guy.    Sure,odd rolls happen and I'm sure people occasionally lose 3 guys out of  a really important unit.  How's it different from a player rolling four 1's on Terminator saves vrs. boltgun fire?  Statistically,the risk didn't outweigh the rewards,otherwise,you wouldn't have taken Termies or Bikes in the first place.  BA have those options,still.  If you want to take a Devastator squad for you BA,and decide that,statistically,Black Rage will make the squad useless one turn out of a 6 turn game,and it's worth the risk,then you still have that option.

Yes, the old BA rules were totally balanced if you filled your list with bikes, terminators, and dev squads.  And Chaos is totally balanced if you load up on Tzeentch horrors.  Funny how not many people seem to do that.

Posted By Whatever on 04/26/2007 5:07 PM

Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/26/2007 10:20 AM

Every try playing a 750 point game with BT's?  The EC,however,does become less of a handicap the larger of a game you play.  So,if you're playing 2500 points,no big deal.  However,even at 1500,I've seen the EC eat up enough points that someone would have much rather spent on a 5-man Las/Plas,Whirlwind,Predator Destructor,or Rhinos for CC squads.

I never had a problem with the way DC played.  However,the way the unit was undercosted was BS.  If I remember right,when you roll for DC,1-3 nothing happens,4-5 one guy joins,and on 6 one guy joins and roll again.  So,in 50% of your games,your Termies/bikes/whatever will be untouched and in 33%,you will only lose one guy.    Sure,odd rolls happen and I'm sure people occasionally lose 3 guys out of  a really important unit.  How's it different from a player rolling four 1's on Terminator saves vrs. boltgun fire?  Statistically,the risk didn't outweigh the rewards,otherwise,you wouldn't have taken Termies or Bikes in the first place.  BA have those options,still.  If you want to take a Devastator squad for you BA,and decide that,statistically,Black Rage will make the squad useless one turn out of a 6 turn game,and it's worth the risk,then you still have that option.

No, I haven't. The game is badly slanted toward Space Marines as it is. 750 seems like a gimme.

Statistically they do. If you have a 50% chance of losing a 40pt model. How often are you going to risk it? Trading one for a DC isn't worth it. And its easier to count the times it hasn't happened then when it did. I can remember twice having a full unit out of the last ten games.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/liber/BARules.pdf

"The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation."

Only a dumb arse like Jervis Johnson would use the word greatest twice in the same sentence. You know it is true. He is the greatest dumb arse to ever write a codex. He must be one heck of a great arse kisser.

- Greenie

Page 75:

"Players that have Death Company models equipped with power fists or power weapons should count them as normal close combat weapons instead."

Are you kidding me?

Rending
Rending
Rending
Rending
Rending

Get used to it.

- Greenie

Green Bloater, wow, so far all but one of your posts today have been directed at bashing Jevis Johnson. Do you have anything real to contribute to any of these discussions?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I am not bashing Jervis. I just want to see him fired then drive by and laugh and in his face. I will throw my DA army at him Marine by Marine... hopefully blinding him for the rest of his life.

I will make it to the top at the indy events where GW cannot fix the event results. So bite me you GW corporate zombie wannabees. I do rock.

- Greenie

Posted By Green Bloater on 05/05/2007 5:05 PM
I am not bashing Jervis. I just want to see him fired then drive by and laugh and in his face. I will throw my DA army at him Marine by Marine... hopefully blinding him for the rest of his life.

I will make it to the top at the indy events where GW cannot fix the event results. So bite me you GW corporate zombie wannabees. I do rock.

- Greenie

The simple fact that toy soldiers make you so angry and vindicative means that you are an incredibly sad person. Did you parents beat you greenie? Why all the hate?

Chuck

Some people don't know how to adapt and overcome.

I know for a fact I will *always* have a Blood Angels army. The rules for them could suck, and I'd still have a BA army and would play it. They were my first army, and they're the army I want to always have.

One of my good friends plays DA, and he's the same way with them, and I should mention he doesn't think the new DA rules suck I should add.

Each of us has a Xeno army as well, I play Eldar (and have since mid Third-edition before the craftworld expansion codex came out) and he plays Tau.

That said, seeing rules that you think "suck" because it doesn't meet with what you expect is not only immature, but downright dumb in my opinion.

Do I agree with all the rumored changes to BA? Of course not. I don't think anyone will, but I do consent that there is more good than bad in the proposed rules. I for one do not like the fact that assault marines can be taken as troops. It flies in the face of the existing back story of the BA, but that doesn't exactly make me upset. I'm still going to field tactical marines because A) I like them; and B) They work well.

I like the thought of fielding a portion of a Blood Angels Battle Company as an army list.

Chaplain as an HQ + DC as an elites choice

Two to three ten man tactical squads, probably in drop pods, + at least one ten man assault squad

I also plan on throwing a devastator squad on the table, 10 man of course, and a Baal pred or two as heavy supports.

If points allow, a veteran assault squad, or a Terminator squad will be the order of the day for an elite choice, or perhaps a Death Company Dreadnought in a drop pod.

I've always wanted to build a 'rapid assault' blood angels army, having the jump pack equipped marines HALO dropping on to the battlefield from thunderhawks as a shock element while the tactical marines drop right into the thick of the fighting while the thunderhawk-deployed vehicles move up and begin to aid the surgical strike.

Will it be effective? Against most opponents, probably. Will it win all the time? I doubt it. Will it be *FUN* to play? Oh yes...yes it will.

That's what matters. And that's what I want to do with my marines in the future. I'll adapt to the new rules and continue to have fun. I suggest you learn to do this if you can Greenie, I know you're a troll and all, but even trolls can learn to have fun I hope.

Later.

-RT-

I am adapting.



- Greenie

Posted By Green Bloater on 05/05/2007 2:48 PM
"The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation."

Only a dumb arse like Jervis Johnson would use the word greatest twice in the same sentence. You know it is true. He is the greatest dumb arse to ever write a codex. He must be one heck of a great arse kisser.

- Greenie

In Latin it's considered the height of elegance to use parallel constructions with the same word.

It's fine stylistically, even if it's not to your taste. Its usage here as a parallel construction isn't a big deal. *Shrug*

It ain't Shakespeare, but it's OK for GW fluff. ("And so, the Space Marine drew his mighty power sword. And it was big. And stuff. And the Guardsmen were lo to behold it and asked if they might touch his sword. But the Space Marine said nay, for it was holy, and sensitive. And the Guardsmen wept hearing the Space Marines words, for they knew that the sword was mighty, and holy, and sensitive."

I'm not the biggest fan of the last few 40K codexes or the general trend towards Herohammer 40,000. Meh. Life goes on. It's not like D.A. or B.A. are worse than I.W. or Armoured Company - just doing the same thing in another direction.

It's hard to hate JJ personally for not being able to write balanced 40K rules when no one else who has tried has been able to either. (My theory: hitherto undiscovered gas line leak at the rules dev studio)

I am still trying to figure out this hero hammer thing. Eldar heroes generally across the board suck and the army can only rely on them supporting the troops to win. DA heroes have all lost an attack across the board, and quite a few don't come with inv saves. They are more offensive than the eldar, but again, without troops they pretty much suck. When it used to be hero hammer, it was because a hero could win the game vs an entire army. Something nigh unstoppable. That was hero hammer.

Mephiston could be just nasty, but without seeing the rules, I can't come to that conclusion yet.

Ok, I've sat down and reviewed the codex and here are my thoughts. Yes, I have a copy of the final WD article

Pros-
More long ranged shooting
Cheaper & Better dedicated razorback and rhino transports (super charged engines don't suck anymore)
Baal gets supercharged engines
Vet. Assaulters kick butt finally
New Libby powers
Libby gets Rights of Battle (Ld 9)
Some of the Special Characters are really bad assed. Dante, Corbulo, Lemartes and Mephiston stand out.
Whirlwinds get ammo that ignores cover
Death Company and all their upgrades are paid for now- there should be far less whinging about this unit. They get rending
Multi melta bikes got cheaper
Land Raider Crusader got cheaper

Cons-
Most everything is more expensive. Powerfists, extra armor, speeders, squads (to pay for the DC). Expect to be taking less because this.
Combat squads- an absolute crappy idea. Yes they give you more flexibily to shove your heavy weapon into a 5 man squad while the rest zip off in a razorback but that's about it. Splitting your squads makes them easy targets to knock beneath 50%. Combat squads force you take either 5/10 man units, thus cutting down the abilty to attach any sort of character to units with transports. Drop pods and Rhinos are full now unless you buy a 5 man squad to go in them (waste of space combined with low model count = bad times)
Just about every unit comes with a Vet sgt. so combat so Rights of Battle for the Libby is pretty much nixed unless you're using combat squads.
Characters have less options. Want to give a HQ choice an auspex or targeter? Too bad. Also you either get a 2 wound Libby or a 3 wound Captain. I didn't play Eldar or Necrons because they couldn't be customized and the organization was very stiff, and this is starting to feel like that.
Scouts are now elites so no more cheap troop choices. Elites have a LOT of good options now.
You dedicate a slot of elite to DC or you're wasting your points. you don't HAVE to take DC, but again, every other unit costs more assuming you WILL take them.
NO skills can be taken. At all. FC can be granted by Corbulo but that's it. DC are the only unit that still has it.
Exsanquinator only saves 1 wound a turn. Narth is a better option and BA can't take them.
Death Mask can only be taken by Lemartes

My thoughts-

Apparently I can have assault cannons on my MM speeders now. Eh. Speeders (unless MM) have been made more expensive, but I'm still taking them. Too nice to grab table quarters. Their rivals, the attack bike are cheaper if you want MM options.

As a BA player you'll be taking less units due to the increased price. So the idea will be to shut down the enemy before they can knock out your units. How to do it? Mass jump packers? Drop pods to tie up the enemy? Not a great choices if your facing bugs or orks.

With the loss of FC, assaulting will have to be done in mass to carry the tide of battle. DC and Vets Assaulters (pricy!) are no brainer units (and the only ones you can buy less than 5 at a time) for larger sized battles (over 1500+ for me). With Drop Pods being a gamble, this will more than likely be done via Jet pack.

Attacking characters to units will be harder. Either zip them around in a half full rhino or DP, a razorback or by Jump pack. Many special charaters (Corbulo, Mephiston, Tycho) can not take JP. Libbys can use their special powers, but then again you can fail that and get stranded.

Honor guard are nice, but very pricy. 5 man tops and get pricier the more you add onto them. Easy way to give away your points to the enemy.

Elite slots are going to be at a premium. Furies, scouts, DC, Vet Assault, Dreads, and techmarines all fighting for space. DC are a given unit so you have 2 to play with.

Another negative came to mind. Jump packs get the option of dropping the packs for a free transport. That part's fine, but if you want to put them in a Land Raider, you're giving up points to do so. You pay a premium for those packs, but you get no points back if you leave those packs behind and go for the LR option.

Posted By Toreador on 05/05/2007 11:22 PM
I am still trying to figure out this hero hammer thing.

Doobie already explained it. It's HeroHammer because rather than picking the force you want, you have to take a special character to get certain choices. 

Want to take a Deathwing army lead by a Terminator Chaplain? Too bad! You must take Belial.

Want to do a cool Ravenwing force with that Biker Librarian you just converted? Sorry! You've got to take the only Jetbike in the Imperium to every engagement before you can bring bikes as troops.

I guess it's NuHeroHammer.

BYE

And there the magical "count as" comes into play...

Greets
Schepp himself

Posted By Green Bloater on 05/05/2007 2:48 PM
"The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation."

Only a dumb arse like Jervis Johnson would use the word greatest twice in the same sentence. You know it is true. He is the greatest dumb arse to ever write a codex. He must be one heck of a great arse kisser.

- Greenie

Ecclesiastes would disagree with you.
" A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant."

Repeating a word doesn't make the writer stupid.

Jervis's line isn't the best constructed, but it's not stupid to repeat yourself. In this
instance I feel that there are too many conjunctions and that he would have been
fine with the much simpler


  "The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' greatest curse, and their greatest salvation."

My only issue with THAT is that it implies that they have other great curses and other
great salvations. So even simpler would have been to say

"The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' curse, but it is also their salvation."

I don't feel sorry for the folks who have to write this stuff, though. I would crack up
everytime I had to be ominous.

Posted By Moopy on 05/05/2007 11:46 PM
Ok, I've sat down and reviewed the codex and here are my thoughts. Yes, I have a copy of the final WD article

(cut long summary)

Posted By Red Thirst on 05/05/2007 

Do I agree with all the rumored changes to BA? Of course not. I don't think anyone will, but I do consent that there is more good than bad in the proposed rules.

Are people not going to the complete PDF of the WD articles Ghaz just linked to?  Everyone can download and print the whole thing.

Wow, that list is ridiculously uncomplicated. I was able to throw together a list in 5 minutes. Is it just me or is everything in increments of 5 points?

The DA codex is the same way. That's Jervis' plan going forward.

Okay it looks like I royally botched it, but in a most royally fashion royally.

- Greenie

Link's broken.

BYE

Stands to reason that when a good chunk of the Company shows up for battle, that the company commander would be out there leading them. Or at least in my mind, so I don't see how it really equals hero hammer. The leader you choose influences what units are available to battle. Stands to reason to me. You are only forced to take either of those two choices if you wish to field the respective units as troops. Hero hammer is just the wrong word for it.