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And the requirement of a particular character is a recent change to the rules. I don't recall anyone saying deathwing or revenwing pissed on the fluff back in 3ed.

I'd also point out, again, that blood angels could take assault marines as troops in the original 3ed rulebook list. So GW has been considering this off and on for sometime.

Plus, assault marines as troops isn't that big a deal, you can still take tacticals if you feel that is more fluffy. Now what will be interesting is terminators moving 12" a turn with a librarian (or DC with 3+ inv to shooting from turbo and FNP).

I think I forgot to mention a few things in my report on the Adepticon seminars with Jervis Johnson, but these rumors have certainly jogged my memory. This all came from the discussion group Sunday morning.

JJ?s son plays Blood Angels.

JJ recounted how he had tried to get his son to purchase a Space marine army in the codex fashion, starting with getting a few tactical squads. But one day his son went down to the GW with excitement, but he returned home sheepishly. He told JJ, ?I wanted to buy the things you told me. But I saw Mephiston there, and I just had to have him.?

Jervis parlayed this anecdote into how special characters needed to be more central to the game and how the special characters and their images can tell you more about an army than 10 pages of fluff can. His main point had to do with special characters, but upon seeing these rumors I started to remember the original context.

Oddly enough he almost refuted that any army list changes would come about in a white dwarf. Nonetheless, I think we can see that the greatest influencer of GW product is now the geneseed spawn of Jervis Johnson.

Posted By Ebon on 04/18/2007 10:55 AM
I think I forgot to mention a few things in my report on the Adepticon seminars with Jervis Johnson, but these rumors have certainly jogged my memory. This all came from the discussion group Sunday morning.

JJ’s son plays Blood Angels.

JJ recounted how he had tried to get his son to purchase a Space marine army in the codex fashion, starting with getting a few tactical squads. But one day his son went down to the GW with excitement, but he returned home sheepishly. He told JJ, “I wanted to buy the things you told me. But I saw Mephiston there, and I just had to have him.”

Jervis parlayed this anecdote into how special characters needed to be more central to the game and how the special characters and their images can tell you more about an army than 10 pages of fluff can. His main point had to do with special characters, but upon seeing these rumors I started to remember the original context.

Oddly enough he almost refuted that any army list changes would come about in a white dwarf. Nonetheless, I think we can see that the greatest influencer of GW product is now the geneseed spawn of Jervis Johnson.

Yes because one month between marine codices / subcodices is just too long

BA ROXX HURR!

Evidently someon needs to do a little kidlet intervention/brainwashing.  "You love non-marine lists...marines are for sissy girls...You love non-marine lists...marines are for sissy girls..."

Blood angels can take 8 squads with jump packs and bp/ccw + death company already. I don't see what the big fuss is about being able to take them as troops.

3 of those 8 aren't worth the points.

I never really saw BA as a strict "codex" chapter anyways.  They had their own patterns of Dreadnaughts and Predators.  Their "normal" Dreads were Heavy Support choices.  The DC had as much organization in the squad as an Ork mob.  Most "codex" chapters didn't have Honor Guard,either.  That,plus the assembling of the DC,Furious Charge,and  Black Rage  made a lot of units,like Devastators,Terminators,and even Tactical Squads unappealling at best and borderline unusable at best.  What I saw was bunch of players fielding tons of Jump Pack troops.  If players aren't going to field BA as a "codex" chapter,then why should the army list be a strict codex list with a couple of minor divergences?

Posted By jfrazell on 04/18/2007 10:05 AM
$45!?!?! Yikes.

Don't worry, that's only $25 in real money...   (c'mon, its called the loonie!)

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Whatever on 04/18/2007 12:19 PM
That,plus the assembling of the DC,Furious Charge,and  Black Rage  made a lot of units,like Devastators,Terminators,and even Tactical Squads unappealling at best and borderline unusable at best.

Well, the obvious solution is to fix the rules to make those choices more appealing. Not to make assault marines Troops.  If the army doesn't play the way it's supposed to, do you change rules to match the fluff, or change the fluff to match the rules?  Well, one is certainly easier than the other - especially if you're no good at writing rules.

Posted By Whatever on 04/18/2007 12:19 PM
If players aren't going to field BA as a "codex" chapter,then why should the army list be a strict codex list with a couple of minor divergences?

Because their background states that that is precisely what they are?

According to the Index Astartes articles, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and White Scars have more divergent organization than Blood Angels.  Of course that fluff probably is no longer valid since those chapters aren't popular enough to be more divergent than Blood Angels, even if it's only in the fluff.

Posted By jmurph on 04/18/2007 7:44 AM
DA are a codex chapter w/divergence?

Does sucking count as a minor or major divergence? ;-)

Well, at the moment it's major divergence.  But I'm sure after the SM codex gets redone sucking won't be considered divergent at all.

And so assaults as troops makes them more divergent than they already are? As some of said, weren't Assault Marines troops for BA in the past?

Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 3:35 PM
And so assaults as troops makes them more divergent than they already are?

Yes.

Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 3:35 PM
And so assaults as troops makes them more divergent than they already are? As some of said, weren't Assault Marines troops for BA in the past?

It really depends on how divergent you think they are currently.

There's two views on this - fluff-wise they're not really all that divergent. Baal Predators and Furioso Dreadnoughts are really just changing a few weapons mounts.

In practice, because of the 3rd edition codex encouraging lots of small scout squads and discouraging units like Terminators,  Devastators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, etc., they're very divergent already.

I think just having the option of taking Assault Squads as troops and remedying the disincentives effecting stationary units will make them much less divergent in actual practice.

To Koyote:

The Jump Power lets you move as Jump Pack (even if in Terminator Armour.) If you already had a Jump Pack, it lets you Turboboost (as I recall.)

Sanguinary High Priests exist no longer.

Assault Squads are strictly Troops.

Posted By Zoned on 04/18/2007 5:18 PM
To Koyote:

The Jump Power lets you move as Jump Pack (even if in Terminator Armour.) If you already had a Jump Pack, it lets you Turboboost (as I recall.)

Sanguinary High Priests exist no longer.

Assault Squads are strictly Troops.

Jump sounds - interesting - would be even more interesting if you could actually assault after it but if the power gives the entire jump squad an invul save maybe that will make up for it but probably not since they'll just be counter charged on the enemy's turn.

Seems like the thing to do would be to jump around a big group of assault terminators.

Taking out the SHP sucks. I assumed he would get a re-write  but total omission is just a lack of effort by the design team.

How does assaults marines as troops makes them more divergent than they already are?

Right now, in 1750, I can get 6 8 man assault squads (w/power fist goodness), a death company and 2 5 man scout squads led by a SHP.

With the rumored changes, if they don't muck the points to much, I can pretty much do the same, other than the SHP, and that the 48 marines will have to be divided in 5/10. So I'll either gain 2, or lose 3.  Both changes make them less divergant.

I'm rather bummed out that SHP is no longer in the rules for BA.

I have a really nifty converted plastic SHP that I am very very proud of (one of my best paint-jobs to date, if I may say so.) and was looking forwards to using in the new codex.

I must say that I am interested in seeing how these new rules play. I must finish my Eldar off first and foremost. That'll be a project that will probably last me well through the summer and into the fall. However once I finish this project off, I plan on re-building my BA's from scratch, using a few models I haven't messed with in a while. The army is going to play differently, and I'm looking forwards to seeing how steep the learning curve is.

I can't say I'm totally excited about the rumored fluff changes, but I'm reserving judgment until I read the changes in the WD before I make a final decision.

That's all I've got for now. Take it easy everyone.

-RT-

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear - the "Wings of Sanguinius" psychic power only lets the Librarian himself move as if he had a jump pack, not a friendly unit.

He also has the old school "Quickening" spell.

Thanks Zoned. 

Which units are Fast Attack then?

Zoned, did you see the stat-line for Mephiston, and what about a wargear selection? Is it still what it was in the 3rd edition codex, and does he finally have an invulnerable save or his artificer armor save his only save still? Were any other special characters shown? I know there was some mention of Corbulo, any obvious changes to him? Also, what about Dante, any mention of him? Thanks in advance for any replies to these questions.

I find it interesting that the "Wings of Sanguinius" is a librarian only power, that limits the potential abuse and also doesn't require that a Libby be included in every single list. I was straight up about to start converting my own librarian out of bits I have laying around ASAP if it had wound up being a power he could cast on a friendly unit. Flying terminators for the win!

Take it easy everyone.

-RT-

Posted By Zoned on 04/18/2007 7:27 PM
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear - the "Wings of Sanguinius" psychic power only lets the Librarian himself move as if he had a jump pack, not a friendly unit.

He also has the old school "Quickening" spell.

Alright - that is infinitely less cool than what I assumed before.  I guess I need to see the completed work before passing judgment but this is pretty much what I was afraid of.  These seem like a knee jerk reactions while not in keeping with the original concept of the chapter.  Sure, it is completely ok for the fluff and concept to evolve but the rules of the game have changed in such a way that makes it less fun to play a 100% assault based army.

Posted By Zoned on 04/18/2007 5:18 PM
To Koyote:

The Jump Power lets you move as Jump Pack (even if in Terminator Armour.) If you already had a Jump Pack, it lets you Turboboost (as I recall.)

Sanguinary High Priests exist no longer.

Assault Squads are strictly Troops.

Hey, Zoned... Are Assault Squads strictly troops? As in not available as a fast attack option?

NO MORE SHP??!!

AAAHHHH!

Any more word on the other special characters like Corbulo, Lemartes (crap model), Dante (please be cool) and Moriar?

Posted By Moopy on 04/18/2007 8:21 PM
NO MORE SHP??!!

AAAHHHH!

That's ok.  SHP are totally unfluffy for BAs because they are a divergent chapter.  This is because they flip out ALL the time.  Most of their free time is spent flying - that's why they have assault squads as Troops.  They love jump packs with all of their body (including their peepee).

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/18/2007 10:29 PM

Posted By Moopy on 04/18/2007 8:21 PM
NO MORE SHP??!!

AAAHHHH!

That's ok.  SHP are totally unfluffy for BAs because they are a divergent chapter.  This is because they flip out ALL the time.  Most of their free time is spent flying - that's why they have assault squads as Troops.  They love jump packs with all of their body (including their peepee).

LOL.  Ninja vampire spase mareinz!  Hurr!

Well SHP out Dev squad in. It's all OK by me.
I'll call him a chaplain.

Posted By blood angel on 04/18/2007 6:12 PM

Taking out the SHP sucks. I assumed he would get a re-write  but total omission is just a lack of effort by the design team.

Wait, wait. Back up a sec.

The design team puts effort into writing Codices? I thought they worked on the 'a million monkeys on a million typewriters' method of rules writing - eventually one of them will write rule that makes sense.

BYE

What you describe is impossible. Ninjas are totally cool and flip out ALL THE TIME. Goth kids who pretend they're vampires and drink unhealthy blood are not totally cool and flip out none of the time. Nice try Abby. What's next? Suggesting that pirate-ninjas exist? Raven guard should be totally cool and flip out all the time. Unfortunately, they play videogames all day long in their Mighty Fortress and are pasty so GWsays they're uncool.



I'd think a group who worked on a million monkeys on typewriters philosophy would play more than a dozen games per codex.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/18/2007 3:26 PM

Posted By Whatever on 04/18/2007 12:19 PM
That,plus the assembling of the DC,Furious Charge,and  Black Rage  made a lot of units,like Devastators,Terminators,and even Tactical Squads unappealling at best and borderline unusable at best.

Well, the obvious solution is to fix the rules to make those choices more appealing. Not to make assault marines Troops.  If the army doesn't play the way it's supposed to, do you change rules to match the fluff, or change the fluff to match the rules?  Well, one is certainly easier than the other - especially if you're no good at writing rules.

Posted By Whatever on 04/18/2007 12:19 PM
If players aren't going to field BA as a "codex" chapter,then why should the army list be a strict codex list with a couple of minor divergences?

Because their background states that that is precisely what they are?

According to the Index Astartes articles, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and White Scars have more divergent organization than Blood Angels.  Of course that fluff probably is no longer valid since those chapters aren't popular enough to be more divergent than Blood Angels, even if it's only in the fluff.

Posted By jmurph on 04/18/2007 7:44 AM
DA are a codex chapter w/divergence?

Does sucking count as a minor or major divergence? ;-)

Well, at the moment it's major divergence.  But I'm sure after the SM codex gets redone sucking won't be considered divergent at all.

From the sounds of it,they DID fix the rules on Black Rage and DC formation to make the said units useful again.   Devastators and Tactical Squads are very viable for BA now that they don't have to worry about involuntary movement.  Termies are viable now that you don't have to worry about losing 40+point models to the DC.  In practice,most people will field the list closer to a codex chapter due to these rules changes.

However,people that were running the popular 2 Scout Squad/Jump Troops from hxll lists aren't going to be happy with GW taking their "Furious Charge" bread and butter away from those units and doing nothing for them in return.  However,letting them do away with the Scouts and just take Jump Troops for their Compulsary Troops choices will free up some points in their army lists for some of the new options they can actually use.  People will also cry about "unusable" models.

Also,Warhammer 40k fluff spreads over thousands of years.  Is it really feasable for a fighting formation to use the same tactics they did 10,000 years ago?  Heck,modern millitary tactics vary greatly from those used 50 years ago.  BA have always had a hard-on for CC.  Maybe over those 10,000 years,they figured that Jump Packs and sticking Assault units in Rhinos and Drop Pods were faster ways of getting their troops into CC. 

All in all,GW can't win.  If they stick with the old fluff and build a list around that,the BA players will complain.  If they modify the fluff to make the army list more conducive to what BA players are doing,the fluff-nutters will complain. 

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/18/2007 10:29 PM

Posted By Moopy on 04/18/2007 8:21 PM
NO MORE SHP??!!

AAAHHHH!

That's ok.  SHP are totally unfluffy for BAs because they are a divergent chapter.  This is because they flip out ALL the time.  Most of their free time is spent flying - that's why they have assault squads as Troops.  They love jump packs with all of their body (including their peepee).

I was going to slap you so hard, you'd land in the Mage Knight universe, but then I realized I should do that to the rewriters instead. ^______________^;

I'll answer as many questions as possible:

I was slightly wrong about the "Wings of Sanguinius" psychic power - at the last bit I said if you have a jumppack, it let's you turboboost - it's actually: if you have a bike, it lets you count as a jetbike.

Koyote: I believe the Veteran Assault Marines were Elites, so that leaves Bikes, Attack Bikes, and Landspeeders as Fast Attack. Landspeeders are 1-3, pay the same points as Dark Angels, but you can have up to two Tornadoes in a squad.

Red Thirst: Like I said earlier, Mephiston is a pig - WS-6, BS-5, S-5, T-5, A-4, I-6, Ld-10, Sv - 2+ can cast all three powers AND use his Force Weapon, no invulnerable but has Feel no Pain

There was no wargear section, the article had the same layout as the Dark Angels codex.

Dante was kinda cool, same stats as a Dark Angels master pretty much with WS-6 and A-4 - he has a Melta Gun that counts as a pistol in close combat (so it's not a Fusion/Inferno pistol) and his Inspiring Presence rule allows all friendly units within 12" get Preffered Enemy versus their opponent.

Corbulo's Grail allows all friendly units within 6" to get Furious Assault. No Power Weapon though, and costed 100pts.

Tycho sill sucks. Still no Power Weapon, lost his digi-lasers, but has Preffered Enemy Orks (when would THAT ever come in handy?!)

Lemartes is pretty much a stock Chaplain - his Death Mask automatically reduces enemy Ld within 6" by 1

Moriar is gone. Death Company Dreadnaughts were an extra ~20pts-ish, and got +D3 attacks. Lost ignore shaken/stunned, though.

Overchargethis!: When I said Assault Marines are strictly Troops, I meant, Assault Marines are STRICTLY Troops