Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I want to see the hill that can let you fire over a Monolith...

You don't need to see over it. Skimmers are all on flying bases now, so you just have to shoot under it.

As for killing the army, while I'm waiting for the marine codex to come out I'd use my chaos list. Two winged princes with lash should be able to double-pull one of the warrior squads into charge range of both of them, giving me a good chance of breaking them in combat in a single round, as two princes should win by 5 or 6, assuming average dice rolls.

This actually be one matchup where spectators don't roll their eyes when a twin lash army takes the table

Show me the monolith skimmer base, please...

The Monolith doesn't come with a Skimmer base. GW says that all models have to be based with the base they come with.. If the monolith is a skimmer, that just means it ignors terrain... since it doesn't come with a base.

It will follow the rules for TLOS

Stelek wrote:
... Meltaguns can only glance a monolith. So yes, they need a 3, 6, 6...and anything else is pretty much a wash.

Monoliths get hit on a 4+, and yes all haywire grenades play havoc with them. So do wraith weapons....

This is only true at long range. At half range or less the armour pen is 2d6+8, so an average shot will fully penetrate the shoebox. AP1 means 4+ to destroy it.
So 3 meltagun imperial guards are needed to take down a monolith. It's not a massive leap of faith to think meltagun squads or squads with grenades will be taken to tournaments, in order to deal with LRs etc.

The obvious problem is getting the melta guys within 6" without dying - but if you are allowing an army no opposition for 2/3 turns, with running they can spread out over quite a large area. So by turn 2, even the most crippled of opponents will have put their anti-tank squads in taxis, stationed round the board and waiting.

Darth Fugly wrote:

Stelek wrote:
... Meltaguns can only glance a monolith. So yes, they need a 3, 6, 6...and anything else is pretty much a wash.

Monoliths get hit on a 4+, and yes all haywire grenades play havoc with them. So do wraith weapons....

This is only true at long range. At half range or less the armour pen is 2d6+8, so an average shot will fully penetrate the shoebox. AP1 means 4+ to destroy it.
So 3 meltagun imperial guards are needed to take down a monolith. It's not a massive leap of faith to think meltagun squads or squads with grenades will be taken to tournaments, in order to deal with LRs etc.

The obvious problem is getting the melta guys within 6" without dying - but if you are allowing an army no opposition for 2/3 turns, with running they can spread out over quite a large area. So by turn 2, even the most crippled of opponents will have put their anti-tank squads in taxis, stationed round the board and waiting.

Uh, you have never actually played against a Necron player or read the Necron codex have you? In the future, please do not respond with uninformed suggestions.

"Living Metal: ... weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice do not get the extra dice against the Monolith ..."

This is correct I haven't. In that case the extra pen dice should be used to throw at the players head.

Darth Fugly wrote:This is correct I haven't. In that case the extra pen dice should be used to throw at the players head.

Thank you for the

Couple problems with this army design...

1 - Warrior units would not be able to use the Monoliths to enter play. They could be held in Reserves, via the new 5e rules, but only Warrior squads exceeding the minimum FOC can use the Monolith to enter play.

2 - The maximum number of 1" base models (Warriors) that can enter play within 2" of the Monolith's portal is 13 (14 if you're good). The enemy isn't preventing you from disembarking, so the Emergency Disembarkation rule could not be used. You just can't disembark that many models from it.

3 - Whilst shooting probably won't ever be able to kill this army, all it takes is one good assault. I'm not saying that the assault is automatic, but with the newer, harsher close combat - Necrons that get run down do not get any WBB rolls.

I think you might actually have a problem when your opponent manages to get a dedicated assault unit into you. Your chances of running and have the entire unit wiped out are pretty good.

I would frankly break the troops up into 10 man squads instead. I'm also not 100% sure that you CAN bring a lord attached to warriors through the monolith since they don't exceed the 2 required by the Force Org Chart. Is there errata or just something I'm missing?

yeah...

With placing a blocking squad in front of the portal.
I'd have to agree with stjohn you can't use emergency disembark as you were never embarked. your entering the game from reserves. and you'd be lucky if theres any space left for you 1" away from my model and within 2" of your portal...

What does the BGB say about reserves that can't enter play?

PaniC...

Uhh whether you can use the monolith or not is a point of contention.

However, the monolith rules state you are placed as if you were embarked from it.

If you read the reserve rules and the monolith rules...you can walk on, then teleport around. You can also teleport in, because in missions where you start in reserve...do you roll for the lith and the necrons together, like the main rulebook says? Since you can keep your warriors in reserve, do you get to teleport in?

The problem with the assault death is you get to do this:

Unit A dies.
Unit B is nearby, and you cannot consolidate.
Half of Unit A gets up, and transfers to unit B.
Unit B goes through the portal, and another half gets up.

Yes, really. Show me the current rule that says swept Necrons cannot make WBB rolls. (Doesn't exist, and no one cares what the old FAQ for 4th said.)

So, I can't say how the army should really work because the rules are confusing to try to make sense out of.

I'm fairly certain that Necrons who are destroyed in a sweeping advance are just gone. Page 40 of the 5th edition book:

"... The falling back unit is destroyed. We assume that the already demoralized foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded and captured or at best fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

That seems pretty clear to me. The assaulted unit that lost and fell back due to leadership modifiers is just gone. If a solid assault unit gets into your unit chances are you will fall back and just get removed, including the lord.

Panic wrote:yeah...

With placing a blocking squad in front of the portal.
I'd have to agree with stjohn you can't use emergency disembark as you were never embarked. your entering the game from reserves. and you'd be lucky if theres any space left for you 1" away from my model and within 2" of your portal...

What does the BGB say about reserves that can't enter play?

PaniC...

I think the necrons can still emergency disembark if you're blocking the front door. You are placed as if disembarking. The emergency disembark is part of the disembark placement rules.

You did see the part about otherwise specified, yes?

Res orb and WBB break alot of rules.

You 'immediately remove' Necrons that cannot make a WBB roll--they are 'destroyed'.

If they can, you don't.

That too, is in the rules.

We can go around in circles all day, really.

But if you are using the portal to get more WBB back rolls then you aren't using the whip.

Capt K

Stelek wrote:FNP and regular armor saves don't work versus the monolith template...and getting cover is difficult against it unless you are in area terrain.

Well that's why there are 3 Monoliths and only 2 Warrior units.

It's not hard to (A) be out of range with one Monolith [you kinda want to be] and (B) only need to teleport one unit anyway.

If you shoot at 2 Necron units instead of 1, you're usually wasting your time.

Stelek wrote:The problem with the assault death is you get to do this:

Unit A dies.
Unit B is nearby, and you cannot consolidate.
Half of Unit A gets up, and transfers to unit B.
Unit B goes through the portal, and another half gets up.

Yes, really. Show me the current rule that says swept Necrons cannot make WBB rolls. (Doesn't exist, and no one cares what the old FAQ for 4th said.)

Fair enough - it's not in the new FAQ, so they could get WBB rolls... providing that A) the one other warrior squad is withing 6", AND B) the other Res Orb is also within 6". Those were wounds that didn't allow any save, and so would require a Res Orb to get up.

But even if all that happens, you still haven't said how you're getting more than 14 Warriors through the Monolith's portal.

You can't, so you emergency disembark.

Unless someone knows something to the contrary.

Still seems like GW should put an exception in for their poor model / rules design here, but meh.

Being a 'Nids player. This army make-up doesn't scare me in the least. It's a little intimidating at first to see 3 monoliths drop from obrit. But after that not so much. If you're dropping in close to my units...well we all already know what 'Nids do best and thats chew things up. Not to mention very few people either on here or in general make use of the 'other' 'Nids available to us from Forge World. And I promise you they'll be more than happy to chew on monoliths.

I still think a swarm army will have no problems either tank busting the monoliths and carving up your warriors. So they jump back behind terrain, so what? That means I have the objective, gg you lose unless you want to close with me and try to contest it.

What swarms the nids have will kill the monolith? The new MC ones I've heard so much about?

You have your objective, the Necrons have theirs. GG it's a draw...

Well without having to go to Forge World, you have the Carnifex. Crushing Claws or Scything Talons both are effective at shredding a Monolith. Now yes, I'll give you that you need to roll a 6 to hit, but once you do...well its not staying up for long.

On the forge world site, there's extra rules and parts for Carnifex's that give them access to 3 new biomorphs. Namely, the Ram Carapace and the two new arms Wrecking Arm and Wrecking Ball. Seeing as how I don't have the rules directly in front of me at the moment I can't quote. But I know they're plenty strong with a Carnifex pumped up and ready to charge.

As well you have the Scythed and Barbed Heirodule a very nasty mutation that the 'Nids have at their disposal. Both are harder to kill than a Carnifex and both are just as capable if not more so to shredding the living armor of the monolith.

And if playing an Apocalypse game, I can guarantee a Bio-titan's weapons are more than a match for the living armor that coats your monolith.

Although this approach does lend itself to CC a bit. Which is ok considering that's what 'Nids do best. Not mention you were talking about wanting to drop them close into your enemy to disrupt any kind of co-ordination, well you might be able to do something with that. But I'm pretty sure once your Warriors dis-embark in any form. They're going to be caught up in CC and you're going to be phasing out pretty quick. Also, getting and using these particular units doesn't make me weak to other lists. So its not a "hate-list" to Necrons by any means, but it'll get the job done.

*shrug* It really doesn't matter to me. Since I've yet to see a force this dedicated to *not* fighting, thusly I'm not really concerned about ever having to fight it. Not to mention most players actually like to have fun and shoot and play the game, not run around and hide. But to each his own.

lol unit A loose combat and dies unit B is in range and all necrons go through the monolith (i know they wouldn't fit but) every one manages their WBB roll. you then only have one unit of 38 models and 2 lords ... so how the hell are they going to roll WBB if they run away?

this would be funny

@Tri: That would be funny! lol

@Fexor: Uhh you know Monoliths are usually hit on 4+, that most Carnifex users do not upgrade to S10, and MC do not get an extra D6 for armor pen?

Apocalypse? What's that? [OMG TONGUE IN CHEEK!]

On second careful reading of the rules you are right, they Necrons would get a WBB roll for being caught in a sweeping advance.

However, every individual model would need to be within 6" of another model of the same type that is still standing. That will cut down a little on the number of models able to make WBB. This of course depends on your deployment, which could make you vulnerable to ordnance. That's all speculative though.

Those that don't get a roll won't get one for going through the monolith with unit B. Seeing as how your phase out number is 7 though you might have some troubles against a "real" assault army. If you only roll for one unit to come in and it gets assaulted that turn... well you're in for some hard times.

All in all I think the overall strategy is decent, but there are to many things that can go horribly horribly wrong. Perhaps TWO monoliths and 3 units of necrons would be a better way to go.

About Eldar and Dark Eldar and Monoliths... I'm not sure it's still in effect, but I remember in 2nd edition, when I played DE, the DarkLance automatically lowered armour values to 12. Is that still around?

Edit: I'm sure it said "Lance" weapons. So maybe BrightLance as well?

@NidMaster40000
.... please go buy the necron codex or read it of one of PDF websites ... and read up on living metal and its ability to ignore almost every thing that improves you chances at killing it ... if you can't be bothered monoliths ignore the extra dice for melta wepons in half range, it always armour 14 as it ignores lancing, tank hunter gives no bonse ether
... i do feel living metals a bit over kill but then the monolith does cost a ton of points for some thing that can only move 6" and at best has a 24" range (yes it can deep strike but you can scatter 12" you're 2 turns away from where you want to be)

Neither DE nor Necrons existed in 2E.

The Dark Lance does do that, but not against the Monolith.

Stelek wrote:Neither DE nor Necrons existed in 2E.

In all fairness, since I actually read White Dwarf back in the days of 2nd, the latter half of that statement is not entirely correct. They did have some basic units in a White Dwarf article (pretty much Warriors and Scarabs).

Hmmm I don't remember much about that article except it was laughable.

Then they made it an army. :(

As there's some debate about the legality of Monolithing all your Warriors, would it be possible to add 2-min sized warrior squads to satnd on the board and get shot at for the first couple turns and use the rest of the list as is to be unkillable? If my math's right that works out to circa a 2k point list.