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Janthkin wrote:

KeithGatchalian wrote:
It is my understanding that you apply the rules from the rulebook, but with the points values given in the scenario. A character with a retinue in a normal annhilation scenario are worth 2 KPs...in the AB scenarios they would be worth 6.

The question is, why are you assuming a platoon command squad (Troops) uses the HQ KP rules?

It's not, that poster is in error. It's one for the troops selection "Command Squad" and one for the IC in the squad, who is a troops unit as well.

Quite a laugh, whoever came up with these rules? As usuall the weights on the scale have been moved in favor for someone and leaving some to drown.. Looks like orcs are the way too go, with the KP bonuses + DoW..

So yet again, people will play a tournament that isnt real 40k..

Wouldn't it be weird if we played a tourney based straight out of the standard missions in the book?

I read it as
HQ FOC= 3 points
Elite/FA/HS FOC = 2 points
Troop FOC = 1 point

Which makes IG a viable army again

odinsspear45 wrote:I read it as
HQ FOC= 3 points
Elite/FA/HS FOC = 2 points
Troop FOC = 1 point

Which makes IG a viable army again

You've read it incorrectly.

Kill Points in Ard Boyz are figured out in the following way:
Troop Choices - 1 Kill Point
Fast Attack/Elites/Heavy Support - 2 Kill Points
HQ - 3 Kill Points
Dedicated Transports do not provide Kill Points

One could try and argue that "Troop Choices" refers specifically to force organize chart selections instead of simply units of troops which you have chosen to bring (though it would probably be an uphill battle), however you cannot make the same argument for Fast Attack, Elites, Heavy Support, or HQ units.

CSM demons would be worth no killpoints then since they don't take a FOC spot

I would say your correct skipper. since the rules specifically are changes in how the main rulebook calculates points and codex over-rules main rules.

Danny..how can you be so sure i am wrong? have you sat and considered my interpretation to be possible? or is it your knee-jerk reaction. I think my interpretation makes sense in their attempt to rebalance out things for a slugfest.

Danny Internets wrote:

odinsspear45 wrote:I read it as
HQ FOC= 3 points
Elite/FA/HS FOC = 2 points
Troop FOC = 1 point

Which makes IG a viable army again

You've read it incorrectly.

Kill Points in Ard Boyz are figured out in the following way:
Troop Choices - 1 Kill Point
Fast Attack/Elites/Heavy Support - 2 Kill Points
HQ - 3 Kill Points
Dedicated Transports do not provide Kill Points

One could try and argue that "Troop Choices" refers specifically to force organize chart selections instead of simply units of troops which you have chosen to bring (though it would probably be an uphill battle), however you cannot make the same argument for Fast Attack, Elites, Heavy Support, or HQ units.

and for the sake of mind-numbing arguement. how would you calculate Heavy weapon teams selected by an IG player for both HQ and heavy support? each squad selected under HQ is worth 3 points? thats absurd. i each heavy weapon selected including the JO under heavy support equallying 2? thats 8 KP (10 if you try saying the JO as Independant also gives another 2 KP) for a single force org. Until the new IG codex comes out in which i believe these things will get rebalanced i see them making these little addendums.

company HQ
HSO + Retinue = 6KP
heavy bolter support squad = 3KP
heavy bolter support squad = 3KP
Mortar Support squad = 3KP
Mortar Support squad = 3KP
Lascannon support squad = 3KP
21 KP HQ slot = YUM

throw in an Commisar or what not and add more to the fun

I think Not.

instead i think 3 points possibly 6 for the retinue or if an additional IC was purchased.

don't think the necron washing machine is going to be as strikingly powerful in a Ard Boyz tournement given the time consuming nature of 2500 pt armies. Let me expound, in the last Ard Boyz tournement the average # of turns was 4. In fact several games played in our store only got to an amazing 3 rounds per player ! Given that in 2 out of 3 scenenarios, monoliths will be held in reserves, there is good chance that those 750 pts won't be showing up till later in the game and a smaller potential that those monoliths won't show up at all...(can't remember if units held in reserve that don't show up in the game are counted as destroyed ...I do know that warriors held in reserve utilizing Monoliths do count as destroyed if not on the table at the end of the game)

According to Dawn of War rules those Monoliths will probably come on in the first turn. Seeing as your troops start on the board but the rest of your army has the option to come on the board or start in reserves. Also if you look at Dawn of War the first turn is Night Fight Special Rules. That is going to give most shooting armies a big kick in the balls.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Savnock wrote:... or if they even came from GW. Anyone got vague confirmations on reliability of source (no names/real info, of course)?

Well, considering that the link goes directly to GW's website... I'd say the chances are SLIGHTLY better than average that they're from GW.

Sorry, blonde moment. I got them via email, but should have checked the link.

And thanks for the pointer, Janthkin. I believe I will stick with my current list, then.

company HQ
HSO + Retinue = 6KP
heavy bolter support squad = 3KP
heavy bolter support squad = 3KP
Mortar Support squad = 3KP
Mortar Support squad = 3KP
Independant Commisar = 3KP

etc,etc

71 total kill points if continueing down this road.

I read it as
HQ FOC= 3 points
Elite/FA/HS FOC = 2 points
Troop FOC = 1 point

Which makes IG a viable army again
23 Kill Points if my interpretation is correct.

Problem with that interpretation, of course, is that let's say that the entire HQ section is 3 kp, maybe 6 as you say. That swings the whole issue way around to the guard's favor - I have to kill how many men, in how many different units, to a man, in order to get three lousy kill points? If even one man, say from a mortar support squad, was still alive I get nothing? That would be ridiculous. No, I think the way you have the KP assigned for company HQ above is the correct interpretation.

Technically, as well, that independent commissar counts as an elites choice, so he's only 2.

Also, CSM daemons "count as a Troops choice in all respects" other than taking up a force org slot, so they generate 1 kp each.

odinsspear45 wrote:Danny..how can you be so sure i am wrong? have you sat and considered my interpretation to be possible? or is it your knee-jerk reaction. I think my interpretation makes sense in their attempt to rebalance out things for a slugfest.

I can be sure you're wrong because you literally inserted "FOC" into places in the rules where it is not in order to support what you think should be the rules instead of what are the rules. If you read my post closely you'll see that I considered only PART of your interpretation possible, specifically the part about TROOP FOC selections being considered altogether a single KP. The other entries for the special KP rules are simply Heavy/Fast Attack/HQ/Elites, not Heavy Choices/Fast Attack Choices/HQ Choices/Elites Choices (and even then I wouldn't agree with your interpretation, but I would acknowledge that it merits some discussion rather than outright dismissal).

odinsspear45 wrote:and for the sake of mind-numbing arguement. how would you calculate Heavy weapon teams selected by an IG player for both HQ and heavy support? each squad selected under HQ is worth 3 points? thats absurd. i each heavy weapon selected including the JO under heavy support equallying 2? thats 8 KP (10 if you try saying the JO as Independant also gives another 2 KP) for a single force org.

Blame GW--I didn't write the rules. Sucks to be IG, yes.

Janthkin wrote:

KeithGatchalian wrote:
It is my understanding that you apply the rules from the rulebook, but with the points values given in the scenario. A character with a retinue in a normal annhilation scenario are worth 2 KPs...in the AB scenarios they would be worth 6.

The question is, why are you assuming a platoon command squad (Troops) uses the HQ KP rules?

My apologies, we were having a conversation about this IRL and I answered the online question at the same time, and during the RL convo the argument was about command squads with JO and I was thinking the same rules apply.

Of course, one could argue since you buy the platoon command squad from the HQ selection, it still counts as an HQ choice.

Jeebus, this is way worse than the AC with scoring tanks question. Here we have core rules being altered significantly for everyone, with questionable interpretation of poorly explained bitz. If there's no clarification, get ready for a plethora of different situations at each individual qualifier venue.

Clarification:

I just got off the phone with Chris Woodward, head of trade sales. Much question asking and note taking. I'll be typing up clarifications to many of the questions here, and posting it later tonite. Chris is up to his eyebrows in meetings at HQ, and I volunteered to be an imperial scribe for the evening.

The main idea is that assigning kill points is done by the choices made on the FOC. When all the models taken with that choice are dead, you earned the kill points.

Example: An Hq slot is worth 3 points. A space marine captain with command squad is 3 points. A farseer with warlock retinue is 3 points. A hive tyrant is 3 points. Tyrant with 3/guards is 3 points. An IG command platoon is 3 points.

Example2: An IG infantry platoon is worth 1 KP, a tactical squad split into two 5 man squads is worth 1 kill point.

Dedicated transports do not give kill points, and do not have to be killed to claim the kill points for the choice. As far as kill points are concerned, they aren't there.

If you have any questions you want me to try to answer, send me a PM.

Mike Clark
Showcase Comics

Answered above.

mikhaila wrote:Clarification:

I just got off the phone with Chris Woodward, head of trade sales. Much question asking and note taking. I'll be typing up clarifications to many of the questions here, and posting it later tonite. Chris is up to his eyebrows in meetings at HQ, and I volunteered to be an imperial scribe for the evening.

The main idea is that assigning kill points is done by the choices made on the FOC. When all the models taken with that choice are dead, you earned the kill points.

Example: An Hq slot is worth 3 points. A space marine captain with command squad is 3 points. A farseer with warlock retinue is 3 points. A hive tyrant is 3 points. Tyrant with 3/guards is 3 points. An IG command platoon is 3 points.

Example2: An IG infantry platoon is worth 1 KP, a tactical squad split into two 5 man squads is worth 1 kill point.

Dedicated transports do not give kill points, and do not have to be killed to claim the kill points for the choice. As far as kill points are concerned, they aren't there.

If you have any questions you want me to try to answer, send me a PM.

Mike Clark
Showcase Comics

Wow. This is wonderful. It also makes getting +8 KP for a massacre on mission #2 a bit of a challenge, which it should be.

The problem, of course, will be in "getting the word out" to stores that don't post on Dakka, and have already received the missions. Thanks for chasing that down, Mike.

Ok what about choices that don't take up FOC slots greater demons demons and spawn. do they give up kill points?

skkipper wrote:Ok what about choices that don't take up FOC slots greater demons demons and spawn. do they give up kill points?

Even if they don't take up a slot, the codex still says what section they come from does it not? Usually with a line saying X "does not use up any force organization chart selections but is otherwise treated as a separate Elites/HQ/Troops/FA/HS unit."

Mikhaila,

Since you got thier ear...How about you tell them just update the friggin SITE!! Really, most people are going to go into this thinking that it is "unit" and not "FOC" for HQ, Heavy, Fast Attack, and Elite. Personally, it is RAW for me untill either the site or the tourneyman tells me differnetly (and I really don't think most players want to be suprised by the tourneyman)

JD21290 wrote:i guess so, actually looking forward to fighting guard now, even if i dont wipe them out should win on KP

sweeping advance on orks, w/o# Nids, and IG FTW...

*shivers with anticipation*

Yeah, based on that decision I came up with an IG list that's 245 models, has 13 Lascannons, 6 Missile launchers, 4 heavy bolters, 3 Autocannons, 2 demo charges, 12 flamers, 21 plasma guns, 8 Meltas, and Gives up exactly 6 KPs. given that they can all deep strike, all start on the board in Dawn of War missions.

I don't know if I'll take that list, as it's sheer silliness might be too much, but there is no way I can do worse than draw mission 2.

Second the call for an update to the site. That's the only way this mess will ever get straightened out.

Hopefully, it will go up on the site. They couldn't guarantee it, but that was the plan.

...need more coffee...must keep typying....must remember I volunteered for this...

This is interesting considering the guy running the games at our store was told to just use the standard missions out of the book.

ah mikhaila. I'd fix you some coffee if I could dude. I hope your efforts pay off.

Aduro: So were we at our store here.

If we take it the way that KP are normally distributed, with the points values from the missions, Guard are screwed in KP. If we take it as KP distributed by FOC slot, then guard are one of the best KP-preserving armies out there, and have a very good chance not to give up any KP at all!

Something's just not right here....

mikhaila wrote:Hopefully, it will go up on the site. They couldn't guarantee it, but that was the plan.

...need more coffee...must keep typying....must remember I volunteered for this...

If I can't get on the website then they could easily just send a copy to all of the stores running the event. This would help considerably.