Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

aka_mythos wrote:The tier system is no different than say having Marine Commander/Captain/Chapter Master, its just a hierarchy of progressively better stats. Personally I hope they do it a little differently than other Codices, where its less a hierarchy and more just a matter of specializing in a different combat method. Also if they go with "silver/gold /platinum lord," the bling lord naming convention I will not play with or against necrons.

I think they're going with the bling lords. Remember that they're saying to look to Apoc and new rulebook fluff for hints about thing to come.

What I was talking about before was more like a Necron lord who follows the Nightbringer might be able to get a upgrade that say... makes so any unit shooting at him has too follow night-fight, for example. So I was really saying more like C'tan worshiping specific wargear.

I think the rumor was that Lords would get the option to become an "avatar of the C'tan," or some kinda thing like that. C'tan themselves would be gone from the codex (which I think is appropriate), but it'd be a way for Necron players to field a mini-C'tan and still use their existing C'tan models (which I also think is appropriate).

But i'm not sure we'll see C'tan-specific stuff. Just a gut feeling, with C'tan making an exit and Dragon and Outsider models presumably never to come (outside of FW, maybe).

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the Tomb Spyder gets properly redone to be styled more like a Destroyer, then an AV12 Living Metal "Dreadnought" with 2 DNCCWs and a shoulder-mounted cannon would be great. This could also be used to provide the basis for Ordnance fire support, taking on the Predator / Whirlwind roles.

My wishlist includes a customizable Tomb Spyder -- something that can be geared for assault, shooting or support. I agree with the concept that the majority of the Necron army should be light on upgrades. But I think Lords and Spyders have great potential for customization, and lots of upgrades/choices can be centered on those two models without harming the dedicated nature of the rest of the army.

The Spyder is actually a robot anyway...it only makes sense they'd have different variants or be able to retrofit them as need.

The "avatar of C'tan" thing sounds like the Nightbringer feature in Dawn of War: Your Lord can acquire an ability that allows the Lord to temporarily manifest as the Nightbringer.

The big problem with Necron Phase out is that it's a neat rule but the implementation encourages simple armies. It's a major drawback to take any units without the Necron rule.

It would be kind of neat to see Lords and perhaps other units getting options to represent following different C'Tan, but I wouldn't want it to be too much like Chaos' "marks".

ecrons wil be more fun to play and play aganst so peaple will by them and like they sad its a companie if they don't sell stuff how ever they do it dey will be broke.
I new the rule's for a thunder canon an now they arent the best but still bote 2 of them cose its a cool moddel.
( and I em making a compleet chapter so I atliest want evry kind of unit 1s)

Make Necron Warriors fearless.
Give Wraiths power weapons.
Give Pariahs FNP, fleet and an extra attack.

That should fix my Necrons!

The shift needed with Pariahs, and at the same time fixingmuch of the rest of the Ncrons book is that they need to be toned down, cut in price and made Troops. Yes, strange it sounds but hear me out.

On a background basis it is defensible. The Necrons are waking up ready for their next round of extermination before going to sleep for another few million years. This time tyere is a lot of life to extinguish, far more than usual and I am refering to the nids.

What would the Necrons do. Their primary limitation is a recruitment problem, principly there are no new necrons. Each Necron lost is irreplacable, which is why Phase Out is important part of their strategy, dont throw good robots after bad. At least for as long as they keep the rule.

Now there is one exception. the Pariah is a new necron recruit made from machine parts and ahem recruits. So why not make a new mass produced variant that can stem the tide of the foul living Tyranid manace that is infecting the universe.

This could account for Pariahs being downgraded to S4 and T4, cut heavily in points and given cut down rules for the Warscythe, at least the version they carry.

as far as the game rules are concerned this will wrom because it is the sort of change Pariahs need.

Finally the whole army improves because one of the critical failings of the army list is how bland it is. Tau and necrons were made with just enough Fast Attack, Heavy Support, Elite and HQ choices to fill out a detachment. troops were sadly lacking. Kroot mediocre though they can be greatly flesh out Tasu by providing a second Troops choice.

Necrons desperately need that. While they are at it scarabs should be troops also. Withy three troops choice Necron armies will diversify quickly and lose a lot of their staid reputation.

What would be the point of Flayed Ones then? I can take a Troops HTH choice that can also shoot, or an Elite HTH choice that can't shoot.

Why would you bother with Flayed Ones?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:What would be the point of Flayed Ones then? I can take a Troops HTH choice that can also shoot, or an Elite HTH choice that can't shoot.

Why would you bother with Flayed Ones?

BYE

Hmm, let's see...

1. They get 2 attacks not 1.

2. Terrifying Visage.

3. Move through cover.

4. They can flank or...

5. They can deep strike.

6. Most importantly, they have initiative 4. Meaning they don't go last against everybody. Which means they might actually do some damage in an assault unlike warriors or immortals.

BYE

So in that case, Pariahs are just troops, but they still suck as much as they used to?

What I want to see is:

Pariahs - 50 points per model.
Elites - 4-12 per Squad.
WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv2+

Warscythe w/Built-In Gauss Blaster
Souless

BYE

I like that, but add Feel No Pain and only cost 35 points a piece.

haven't read all this thread so forgive if this has been suggested...

to me phase out is part of what made necrons different from other races, especially marines (3+saves and all that).

I vote to keep the rule but for it to be squad based and 'replace' morale. no morale modifiers, if a squad fils a check or drops below 25% it phases out automatically. yes it's not great for holding objectives/contesting or whatever, but it's part of the character of the army and I've never seen necrons as being a beginers army anyway. Taking the rule away is taking out a large chunk of the background feel to the army. Might as well take away power armour from marines while their at it, it's old, everyone's forgot how to make it properly, it's expensive. lets just have more fleshy guys! (ok, a bit exagerated there...)

Pariahs as Troops don't make sense to me, just because the pariah gene isn't supposed to be a common thing. It's hard to envision them as the frontline foot soldier in the same way that Warriors are.

The reason I think Pariahs need a total rethink and not a stat tweak is because all the CC units you need are there already...it's just that 2/3rds of them don't work properly. With Scarabs serving as the h2h tarpit, an improved FO serving as the basic Necron h2h unit, and powered-up Wraiths that actually work as elite killers, that's really all you need. And if Spyders get more interesting/variable, there might be your dread/MC level CC unit.

Pariahs seem a little directionless as a mixed CC/shooting unit, and if the poor units in the army get buffed, I'm not sure there's room as either dedicated CC or dedicated shooting. That's why I say they ought to recenter it around the only thing that makes them unique -- their psych role. Just my $0.02.

You could cut the range on their shooting ability from the new second gen mass produced Pariahs and deny them Feel no Pain (they are not true Necrons). Flayed ones will be far nastier.

In any event the first fix must be to expand troops choices. Scarabs and downgraded Pariahs are the only solutions I see.

Well the direction is certainly right! Looking forward to lots of Necron rumors and then great models and a solid codex.

In any event the first fix must be to expand troops choices.

I put money on one or both of the following as their expansion of troop options

1) Lords with certain gear open up spots to put certain non-troops as troops ala orks. Limited numbers like orks but enough to add variety to scoring abilities.

2) Flayed ones become troops -- or basically an optional upgrade to warriors. Would prolly lose deepstrike or other special ability but would still be a good scoring option.

I wouldn't bet on any other option, especially not downgraded pariah as troops.

1) Lords with certain gear open up spots to put certain non-troops as troops ala orks. Limited numbers like orks but enough to add variety to scoring abilities.

Sounds reasonable

2) Flayed ones become troops -- or basically an optional upgrade to warriors. Would prolly lose deepstrike or other special ability but would still be a good scoring option.

I think you'd have to apply your first point before this occurred.


IIRC Scarabs will be troop choices but I don't know if they will be scoring or not.

Swarms are never scoring.

Aduro wrote:Swarms are never scoring.

Very true, but just remember though that a major theme of the newer codices are exceptions to rules. For example, Pedro Kantor making Sternguard Vets, an Elite FOC choice, scoring. It's not unreasonable to wonder if scarabs can be made scoring in the new codex.

Nah... They'd just be WAY too good if they were. Turbo boosting jetbikes with a 2+ cover save darting around the board taking objectives? I just can't see anything like that. They're good enough as they are and as Fast Attack IMHO. Flayed Ones I could see as Troops however.

It would be nice to see Flayed as Troops, it would make it more balanced with the option to take either H2H or Shooting as troop instead of just shooting.


And I can't help but notice that more then half of you that post here are just hating on the Necrons and want to make them even worse then they already are.

Fluff bases, WBB was great for necrons, it worked fine, giving them FNP is just killing the fluff of Necrons. Also, removing C'tan would be like removing the big daemons from Chaos! (Ya, I don't know there name, leave me alone) Or the Carny from Nids, your taking away the one giant ass kicking unit we get that can be thrown out there and just kill some gak.


Over all, necrons need to be expanded, moving one or two units from category A to category B wont help, there is still the same limited selection there.

And I1? We already suck H2H! Why make us suck more?

I don't hate on the Necrons, believe me. They should drop WBB for FNP. They do the same basic thing in the end, and it's easy to keep the fluff of them getting the save from a self repair, but FNP is simply a much cleaner rule in a game that's trying to stream line itself more.

I'm also fine with them taking the C'Tan out of the codex if their intent is to make bigger badder meaner guys who more fit the fluff of an uber tough star god in Apoc. Having powerful Lords as avatars of their chosen deity is a good idea to replace them.

The Int thing isn't a really big deal to me either way.

Thanks Brimstone, made my night. You shoulda waited though, I might have been able to get Orlanth to bet some sterling

What about the basic warrior stats? Some above posters have mentioned lowering I, but I think the other stats should also be reviewed - currently they're far far too similar to MEQs. I'd like to see something more robotic and very different to any other race.

Just for a laugh, how about WS1, A1, S5 (and counts as power weapon), I1, T7 and no armour save - i.e. terrible in close combat but will hit back very hard if it gets lucky, and very hard to kill.

Augustus wrote:

I still suspect that assault weakness is such a MASSIVE 5th ed flaw that the Necrons wil be a B army anyway, don't have to worry about FNP when they run from a Melee morale check at -4 and get overun...

I think that they will be stubborn

If not full on Fearless.

if you want to increase the cost of necrons you need to make them better.

FNP, while a much needed rules change, is worse than WBB for the simple reason that you cant use FNP against AP1 and 2. admittedly it gives a slight boost in combat, but in an army where combat is a huge disadvantage, its basically no boost at all.

similarly SAP is a disadvatage. it fits the fluff, but because necrons have no transport options, it basically measn that any objectives on the otherside of the board are unreachable. an army where all of your scoring units cannot reach objectives is an army beyond the realms of unplayability. they would be worse than pure GK armies.

phase out should also go because it just doesnt suit an objective based game. i know its nice and fluffy, but if they get the points correct (yeah like thats ever going to happen) then they just wouldnt need it. big army wide disadvantages like this distorts the way the game works and unnecessarily complicated things.


these changes would require a rework of the necron codex overall, not just a 'tune up' so i think looking at some early brainstorming ideas and arguing about it is a waste of time.

dietrich wrote:I don't find any of that surprising. Phase out needs to go. Giving all their weapons rending would be hideous, but I think that makes more sense than only auto-glancing.

If only 19 pts per model, it would not be hideous but BROKEN. Come on a space marine with FNP, Slow and Purposeful, and Rending. That is more like a necron players wet dream .

FNP vs WBB is more of a wash. Sure, you don't FNP vs AP1 or 2, but you don't get WBB if they wiped out your three man Wraith unit either. FNP is also significantly more helpful in assaults than WBB, as it will negate your loses and help out your resolution in your favor more.

Augustus wrote:Right but WBB+ORB+Monolith increases the surviveability of Necron Units by quadruple! Which was the real problem, you could reduce enemy firepower by 75% essentially with rerolled WBB in all cases.

Necrons will still proabably get some slowed version of the orb that grants them immunity to the stuff that ignores FNP (I doubt we will see much difference there).

I am curious about the fate of the Monolith. Maybe it will just teleport units. Or maybe GW will grant Necrons the old WBB rule via teleporting through the Monolith in addition to FNP (Insert Sarcasm Here ).

JD21290 wrote:so, how many points is a fire warrior?
it has the ability to glance some vehicles, it has a stronger weapon, more range, just lower combat abilities, but doesent have a FNP rule, oh, and the necrons save is a little better.

so a necron warrior is a little better than a fire warrior, but alot more points.

Necron BS 4 T 4 Armour 3+ FNP Auto Glance a LR

Firewarriors aren't even in the same ball park

Yeah, I'm sure the Resurrection Orb will be made to let you ignore the exceptions to Feel No Pain rolls.

I'd love to see the Monolith made more terrifying. I mean sure, it's nice and tough now, but I'd like to see it just get big and imposing. Maybe something like being able to use the Particle Whip and the Flux Arc in the same turn. I could see it costing more at the same time as well, especially if they get rid of Phase Out.