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I will let you judge the quality of the rumour.

Sourcing goes:

Guy who is writing the Necron Codex > Someone I know > Me > You

These rumours are from the brainstorming for the new Codex and is valuable mainly for the direction GW want to head in rather than the hard "facts".

1. Necron Warriors: 19pts, I1. Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful. Other units not mentioned directly.

2. Phase Out goes as does "We'll Be Back". The reason is because GW is moving away from killing units and onto taking objectives, which might or might not be killing units, and so wanmts to bring Necrons in line with this.

3. This is also an attempt to make low 'Necron' model count armies more atteactive and thus make units such as Pariahs more attractive choice.

4. Gauss weaponry will remain the same in terms of auto glancing. No mention as to whether rending is gained as an army rule.

5. Feel No Pain effectively replaces We'll Be Back.


My thoughts on this.

GW seemed to have bitten the 'streamlining dogma' and are packaging non marine armies into a standard set of rules with a handful of army or unit exceptions. While this is seen as making the game more standardised and easier it actually makes the game blander.
After all Slow and Purposeful and Feel No Pain makes Necron Warriors to similar to Thousand Sons.

Phase out meant that Necrons stood seperately from the usual method of fighting. Again exeptions help rather than hinder the game. This is also important because the other real exception army, tyranids should also be allowed to keep its own objective set. I.e. Eat everyone, ignore table quarters. Both armies make more sense as exceptions to the standard grab the flag order of battle. Though in Necrons case they do go for objectives, but in a different way.

they need to keep the phase out, watching a nightbringer run at me is never fun, let alone when i cant just phase them out to make it go away.

however, i think this will make them a playable army, i may even concider them if this turns out to be whats on the cards.

The recent round of rumors has the C'Tan going away JD, so you won't have to worry about that part of it.

I think that Phase Out must go as a rule. In the objective/KP based game that 5e is now, it makes the games too all-or-nothing.

sweet
hate sending in a unit of 10 nobz as bait to keep him going for a while XD

i agree john, phase out is a bit of a piss take, all army's have a flaw, this is a bloody massive flaw, and restricts your army too

I don't find any of that surprising. Phase out needs to go. Giving all their weapons rending would be hideous, but I think that makes more sense than only auto-glancing.

I'll agree with the majority, phase out has to go. If GW wants more Necrons in the mix, just do it with the viability of the units/models, no need for the heavy handed phase out club.

I think Phase out needed to be cleaered up all unit in the army should count, so none are left out and the phase out number shifted. Well Be Back is what neededd to go, a very clunky rule that adds to book keepi9ng and made the game messy.

The idea that Necrons would keep on coming but would suddenly disappear as if they were never there is somewhat appealing as a background concept. Necrons are supposed to be different.

Also something I forgot to add.

The monolith will apparently be recosted, upwards, quite substantially.

Most of that stuff is what Necron players have been either expecting or outright calling for. So no surprises there.

If you have the ability to dig for more, see if you can find out about Lords, their various levels and how they influence army list selection. Brimstone has dropped some hints along those lines on Warseer.

1. Necron Warriors: 19pts, I1. Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful.

OK, that works. A Necron with FNP should still be costed at 20+ pts.

2. Phase Out goes as does "We'll Be Back". The reason is because GW is moving away from killing units and onto taking objectives, which might or might not be killing units, and so wanmts to bring Necrons in line with this.

I dunno. I like Phase Out, and think the easiest way to do this is to simply say that Necrons automatically lose if they have no Scoring units on the board. That's very easy to keep track of for both sides and keeps armies well-balanced.

3. This is also an attempt to make low 'Necron' model count armies more atteactive and thus make units such as Pariahs more attractive choice.

Sure, OK.

4. Gauss weaponry will remain the same in terms of auto glancing. No mention as to whether rending is gained as an army rule.

Rending is fine, makes more sense than a special rule that is essentially similar but more wordy.

5. Feel No Pain effectively replaces We'll Be Back.

Yes, of course.

Orlanth wrote:GW seemed to have bitten the 'streamlining dogma' and are packaging non marine armies into a standard set of rules with a handful of army or unit exceptions. While this is seen as making the game more standardised and easier it actually makes the game blander.

I disagree. It means exceptions are actually special, rather than commonplace. When every unit has an exception, it becomes odd to see a unit without any exceptions. That's not good.

Orlanth wrote:After all Slow and Purposeful and Feel No Pain makes Necron Warriors to similar to Thousand Sons.

Huh? TSons don't have FNP. Plague Marines have FNP. Tsons have Hellfire Rounds and a mandatory Psyker.

Orlanth wrote:Phase out meant that Necrons stood seperately from the usual method of fighting.

Phase out meant that Necrons had a balance against the benefit of WBB. WBB roughly doubles the survivability of a Warrior. So the value of a Necron is something like 20 to 25 pts, compared to a 15-pt Space Marine. Charging less than that means there needs to be an penalty of some sort to balance the underpricing.

After all Slow and Purposeful and Feel No Pain makes Necron Warriors to similar to Thousand Sons.

Slow moving gun platform robots filled with dust or slow moving gun platform robots filled with robot parts.

Oh damn son, your right they are exactly the same.

GW seemed to have bitten the 'streamlining dogma' and are packaging non marine armies into a standard set of rules with a handful of army or unit exceptions. While this is seen as making the game more standardised and easier it actually makes the game blander.

While removing the phase out rule does take out a large part of necron strategy removing We will be back does not. It was a stupid idea with bad rules and an incredibly poor execution. It was just a bad time on all fronts, and none of the necron players I know of liked the rule. In fact one of them kept proposing just replacing it with FNP because Well be back hijinks just broke the game (as in too many things aren't covered and rules disputes were common).

Removing phasing just gets rid of a rediculous and difficult to answer math riddle at the heart of every necron army. One that got even worse the larger the army was. That being "What is the exact number of models on the field right now." Really, no one should be asked that as a matter of importance every turn.

I would rather phase out just be a necron result of being broken. Perhaps automatic destruction as if they were run down but they only count for half a killpoint or other random crap.

Wow I really like the feel no pain trade for we will be back. Excellent! Necron armies before seemed like they ALWAYS had to haveth Orb, now, its potentially totally different.

I wonder how that might play into the rerolls for porting through the monolith?

Hmmm.

I still suspect that assault weakness is such a MASSIVE 5th ed flaw that the Necrons wil be a B army anyway, don't have to worry about FNP when they run from a Melee morale check at -4 and get overun...

ShumaGorath wrote:While removing the phase out rule does take out a large part of necron strategy removing We will be back does not. It was a stupid idea with bad rules and an incredibly poor execution. It was just a bad time on all fronts, and none of the necron players I know of liked the rule. In fact one of them kept proposing just replacing it with FNP because Well be back hijinks just broke the game (as in too many things aren't covered and rules disputes were common).

Agreed. WBB was not well-understood, even by many Necron players. FNP is much better and easier for everyone.

ShumaGorath wrote:Removing phasing just gets rid of a rediculous and difficult to answer math riddle at the heart of every necron army. One that got even worse the larger the army was. That being "What is the exact number of models on the field right now." Really, no one should be asked that as a matter of importance every turn.

I would rather phase out just be a necron result of being broken. Perhaps automatic destruction as if they were run down but they only count for half a killpoint or other random crap.

Rather than counting models, simply see whether there are any Scoring Units of Warriors remaining. There won't be more than about half a dozen of them, and converting it to all-or-none is easy to track for both players.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Phase out meant that Necrons stood seperately from the usual method of fighting.

Phase out meant that Necrons had a balance against the benefit of WBB. WBB roughly doubles the survivability of a Warrior. So the value of a Necron is something like 20 to 25 pts, compared to a 15-pt Space Marine. Charging less than that means there needs to be an penalty of some sort to balance the underpricing.

Right but WBB+ORB+Monolith increases the surviveability of Necron Units by quadruple! Which was the real problem, you could reduce enemy firepower by 75% essentially with rerolled WBB in all cases.

hmm i hope they give flayed ones and wraiths rending

Rather than counting models, simply see whether there are any Scoring Units of Warriors remaining. There won't be more than about half a dozen of them, and converting it to all-or-none is easy to track for both players.

Yeah but that would just be a lose more ability. Lose more abilities don't work just as win more abilities don't work. All it does it make it so that necron player doesn't have to play out the last turn or two of a game that he has already lost by losing all scoring units. Basically it gives the opponant the game for setting up a win condition that already existed (that being the necron players inability to score). All it would effectively do is make it slightly more difficult for necrons to salvage a tie.

Not a particularly fair compromise for a hardy and very shooty base unit for a low points cost considering it wouldn't effectively do anything other than formalize a loss that was already in place.

Phase out worked as a handicap in 3rd ed, but in 5th ed, it makes little sense. I would be willing to bet that the army would barely function any better if the army ignored the phase out rule. Phase out is like a legal way for necrons to see that they have lost the battle, so the rules tell them they can quit by saying that their force is taking their toys and going home... I suppose it could be properly tweaked to work well in the current edition, but that also largely depends on what the rest of the list constitutes.

For example, Augustus commented on how the interaction would work while porting through a monolith. Thats assuming that that ability will still even be part of the monolith.

Judging by the opportunity they are taking in doing this much needed rewrite, I have doubts as to what the monolith will actually do. Its entry is so large and convoluted for some people, that many people take forever to get the rules right for their use. GW may just take this chance to rewrite that entry and surprise everyone.

Regardless, there has been rumours for awhile concerning how necrons will change and FnP has been lauded as the best possible and most simple replacement for WBB. I happen to agree. I1 and slow and purposeful is doubtful though, as they will just crumble in assault. Grots could quite possibly make them break. If they are really going to suck that badly in assault, then they need to make their shooting attacks very powerful. Auto glancing is not powerful. I don't expect to fight many AC lists in 5th ed, unless its made into a legal list in the new IG 'dex. Its not the best idea I have seen for a unit, but its a start at least.

Also, I believe the idea that Hwang posited that necrons auto-losing when all scoring units are eliminated is a truly horrible very ill thought out idea. It not only shoe horns that army into being forced to take as many warriors as possible, (just to simply stay on the table let alone be offensive) but it removes the little bit of flexibility the army already had. I honestly can't see that being considered as a viable possibility by any game designer.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Rather than counting models, simply see whether there are any Scoring Units of Warriors remaining. There won't be more than about half a dozen of them, and converting it to all-or-none is easy to track for both players.

Yeah but that would just be a lose more ability. Lose more abilities don't work just as win more abilities don't work. All it does it make it so that necron player doesn't have to play out the last turn or two of a game that he has already lost by losing all scoring units. Basically it gives the opponant the game for setting up a win condition that already existed (that being the necron players inability to score). All it would effectively do is make it slightly more difficult for necrons to salvage a tie.

Pretty much. But then, a Necron force on the verge of Phase Out is already pretty much done. Tracking Scoring Units just makes everything simpler.

If you take Phase Out away, then Necrons need to cost at least 25 pts each and/or get much worse stat-wise.

Hellfury wrote:Judging by the opportunity they are taking in doing this much needed rewrite, I have doubts as to what the monolith will actually do. Its entry is so large and convoluted for some people, that many people take forever to get the rules right for their use. GW may just take this chance to rewrite that entry and surprise everyone.

Totally agreed. I think the Monolith remain an AV14 brick, but with Living Metal simplified to a -1 on the damage chart, with the teleport ability just placing a unit in Reserves.

Hellfury wrote:Regardless, there has been rumours for awhile concerning how necrons will change and FnP has been lauded as the best possible and most simple replacement for WBB. I happen to agree. I1 and slow and purposeful is doubtful though, as they will just crumble in assault. Grots could quite possibly make them break. If they are really going to suck that badly in assault, then they need to make their shooting attacks very powerful.

Really? WS3 S3 Guard need something like 36 attacks to drop a WS4 T4 Sv3+ FNP Necron. In other words, an *entire* squad of 10 Guardmen charging would be somewhat lucky to kill a single Necron, as, on average, Guard would need 2 such squads charging into kill a Necron, and then the Necrons would start slapping Guardsmen down.

Hellfury wrote:Also, I believe the idea that Hwang posited that necrons auto-losing when all scoring units are eliminated is a truly horrible very ill thought out idea. It not only shoe horns that army into being forced to take as many warriors as possible, (just to simply stay on the table let alone be offensive) but it removes the little bit of flexibility the army already had.

If Necrons aren't fun to play against, why should they be fun to play?

I agree with what Hellfury said.

I1 sounds bad though. Necrons are already godawful in assault. Striking second is fine. 20 Warriors getting cut down by pretty much anything isn't.

-1 for living metal sounds fine. Makes my bright lances do something.

I admit the grot example was hyperbole in the extreme.

But by your reckoning, they would be 500+ points and a drop in stats. How much does a full platoon of guardmen (that has access to special/heavy weapons and JO/sgt upgrades) cost again?

But necrons that rapid fire s4 ap5 that could possibly autoglance a vehicle (Boy oh boy stop the excitement!) should cost that much?

Regardless, much tweaking is needed by calm and competent minds as to how to tweak necrons into a viable list, like any other army.

And necrons should be fun to play with and against. They should be just as valid as any other list and deserve just as fair a shake. Hence a rewrite. Don't let your obvious anti-necron bias cloud your mind that this could be a competitive army while being balanced if done right. Such negative attitude propagates the mindset into GW to make more marine armies, and we all know we need more marine armies like we need 6 more holes in the head.

so, how many points is a fire warrior?
it has the ability to glance some vehicles, it has a stronger weapon, more range, just lower combat abilities, but doesent have a FNP rule, oh, and the necrons save is a little better.

so a necron warrior is a little better than a fire warrior, but alot more points.

So if a Warrior with I1, Slow and Purposeful, and FNP should cost 25+ points... Should a Plague Marine with I3, two CC Weapons in addition to his bolter, three kinds of Grenades, Toughness 5, and FNP cost 50 some points?

I1 is a big problem. It makes them even worse in close combat.
Here's hoping they get defensive grenades.
Balancing necron warriors is gonna be the most important part of this codex.

If Warriors are given Slow and Purposeful, and Monoliths are upcosted a bunch, what do you think they'll do to allow them to get Scoring Units across the board to objectives?

Some good ideas, but one thing irks me

Why does the removal of "phase out" make Pariahs any better? Sure, this removed the liability of do nothing points that made you easier to fade out. This does not make Pariahs any more effective than they were before. Expensive, one attack models that compete with Immortals for elite slots, yet don't really do anything that Immortals won't. They don't have the attacks to make a dent in hordes, they don't shoot hordes any better than Immortals, and the types of models that their warscythes would be points efficient against either kill them back even faster (usually before they even get to swing) or simply out maneuver them.

And if they think that making a units competition worse will make it more attractive, they are still wrong. If immortals get nerfed "to make Pariahs better", Pariahs will not be any more effective, but the army will suffer as a whole.

Thanks for the heads up. Any word on the T5 rumor for regular necrons? They'd have to do something to immortals if true.

I like the I1 from an overall standpoint. It sets Necrons apart, as no standard unit has that low of an initiative. Makes sense too for the standard necron.

Necron assault problems get a little better if WBB is replaced with FNP. WBB did not help with the assault results or getting run down, FNP does. There were rumors of giving Necrons Stubborn. That would help more so if true, as ld10 without modifiers is a hard nut to crack and one that is not taking no retreat wounds like other FNP units.

I'd add that surely the assaulty units in the necron codex will get improved. I'd even venture that the various Lord options will make for one tough hombre similar to C'Tan now (to replace them as rumored).

I am guessing the orb will let FNP be done an any wound now. I'd also venture to guess the monolith will allow rerolls to FNP to units nearby. Or perhaps improve FNP to 3+. Something along those lines.

Looking forward more to some new units Not expecting alot but surely there will be some?

If Warriors are given Slow and Purposeful, and Monoliths are upcosted a bunch, what do you think they'll do to allow them to get Scoring Units across the board to objectives?

Flayed ones are rumored to be troop options in the new dex. Here's to hoping they get a boost (and are not S&P, nor lower then I3-4).
Also running S&P models are still moving faster on average then without running in 4ed. That is a small consolation though. Perhaps they'll get some kind of obelisk that can port em to and fro.

Man I'm just wishlisting now. Back to your actual rumors.

Pretty much. But then, a Necron force on the verge of Phase Out is already pretty much done. Tracking Scoring Units just makes everything simpler.

If you take Phase Out away, then Necrons need to cost at least 25 pts each and/or get much worse stat-wise.

25 points for a marine with FNP and a bad statline is massively overcosted. I don't really even think 19 is that cheap personally. Plague marines are marginally more expensive and vastly superior. Even standard marines are pretty comparable due to the superior initiative and squad weapons.

Hellfury wrote:I admit the grot example was hyperbole in the extreme.

But by your reckoning, they would be 500+ points and a drop in stats. How much does a full platoon of guardmen (that has access to special/heavy weapons and JO/sgt upgrades) cost again?

But necrons that rapid fire s4 ap5 that could possibly autoglance a vehicle (Boy oh boy stop the excitement!) should cost that much?

And necrons should be fun to play with and against.

Such negative attitude propagates the mindset into GW to make more marine armies, and we all know we need more marine armies like we need 6 more holes in the head.

That's why I switched up to Guardsmen.

At 500 pts for 20 Necrons, that's a very tough unit. Currently, for 500 pts, you could get a PF JO with 4 Plas carries leading 4 Las/Plas Guard squads = 45 full-gun Guardsmen. A full Platoon of 5 squads is doable at similar points, but would require reduction in Lascannons (not good vs Necrons, as you need S9+ to have any chance vs AV14).

IMO, a FNP Necron with a S4 AP5 Rending Gun is fairly priced at 25 pts without Phase Out; a FNP Necron with a Rending Gun that can be Phased Out is worth around 20 pts.

If playing against Necrons doesn't feel like the mindless drudgery of scrubbing a pot, punctuated by repeatedly stubbing one's toes against misunderstood rules, then that would be a huge step up from the current situation.

Given that Necrons are MEQs, I'd be much happier to see GW do the 4 Powers of Chaos instead of Necrons.
____

Aduro wrote:So if a Warrior with I1, Slow and Purposeful, and FNP should cost 25+ points... Should a Plague Marine with I3, two CC Weapons in addition to his bolter, three kinds of Grenades, Toughness 5, and FNP cost 50 some points?

I3 and A2 are only worth 2 points, while Grenades are of negigable value. T5 is worth a couple points. But then you offset against a Rending gun, and the PM is fair at 26 pts.

Da Boss wrote:I1 is a big problem. It makes them even worse in close combat.

I1 vs I2 makes no difference, as they're still slower than regular Marines & Guardsmen. Besides, FNP covers for a lot problems.

ShumaGorath wrote:25 points for a marine with FNP and a bad statline is massively overcosted. I don't really even think 19 is that cheap personally. Plague marines are marginally more expensive and vastly superior. Even standard marines are pretty comparable due to the superior initiative and squad weapons.

If he has a semi-Special Rending Bolter, he's not so bad at all. 19 would be cheap - you can't cost them less than 20 pts, because they're still a flavor of Cult Marines, and SM are now 16 pts. Plague Marines are good, no doubt, which is why they're 26 pts each.

19 Points for a warrior seems fine to me. Remember you wont get FNP on AP 1 and 2 weaps, instant kill weapons (strength double their toughness), or anything that disallows armor saves (Power Weapons, Rending, Tzeentch Flamers etc).

Hmm... if Necrons are getting a new kit, then these rules wouldn't make any sense. But let's think critically about this for a second, and apply the GW design process to the Necron Codex.

Things get better for two reasons:

1. No one bought it in the last edition because it sucked or wasn't as good as somthing comparable (eg. Assault Terminatotrs in the last Codex compared to this one).
2. There's a new model kit coming out (eg. Stealth Suits).

So it comes down to what are people using, and what are people not using?


Lords - People have to use Lords. There's no ways around that. They can release a new one or a plastic one to entice people to buy them, but otherwise there's no much chance for dramatic change here. Rules can change, but that will only really happen with a new model, or because they're getting rid of something else... there are rumours about removing the C'Tan, afterall. Might get a fully plastic Destroyer Lord, meaning that Destroyer Lords will get killer new rules.

Immortals - People use Immortals because they rule. Now, like the Stealth Suits in Tau Empire, they can't just nerf them because everyone already owns them, that's too obvious a change. So, like the Stealth suits, what they have to do is make them slightly better, and give them some fancy new options, and then make a new kit that is incompatible (both aesthetically and structurally) with the previous kit (compare metal Stealths to plastic Stealths and then tell me I'm wrong). Still, that means plastic Immortals, and that's awesome.

Destroyers - They won't get a new kit. They'll be toned down actually because everyone already owns them.

Heavy Destroyers - Not a huge winner, more of a necessary evil in Necron armies, but I can see these getting better as they move away from hybrid kits and a combined Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer kit arrives.

Monolith - They won't redo the Monolith. They'll tone down the rules and put the price up.

Necron Warriors - Now people use these because they have to, and this is unlikely to change. So GW is faced with two options - people already have to buy them, so they're garenteed sales, so they don't need to be better and no investment in a new kit is necessary. So they'll either stay as they are, get worse (doesn't matter to them - you still need to buy the models) or we'll get a recut sprue and a boost in rules. From these rumours I'm suspecting that they know that people need Warriors anyway, so they don't really lose anything by making them worse and avoiding a costly new plastic mould.

What are people not using?

Wraiths - As everyone takes Destroyers and Scarabs as their Fast Attack choices, everyone ignores the anemic Wraith (I even forgot it when I posted this, so this is an edit). Now, as everyone owns Destroyers (and there's nothing to be gained by boosting their rules as it won't drive sales of something people already own), Wriaths are a prime candidate for a big boost in rules. No one owns any unless they're machocistic or they came with something (my two came in the original Necron Army box), so a significant jump in rules, combined with a nerfing of Destroyers, will swing that pendulum in the Wraith's favour as people who already own Destroyers (which is all Necron players) rush out to buy their 'replacement' - the now uber-cool Wraiths. No need for a new kit because of this either, as people don't buy the existing one but will once the rules get better.

Pariahs - No need for a new kit here. No one buys them as they're junk, so like no one buying Assault Terminators (because 6-man double AssCan Termy squads were infinately better in the previous Codex), all they have to do is boost their rules. This will drive Pariah sales.

Flayed Ones - Applies to them as well. I can see a plastic kit, a boost in rules, and a transfer over to Troops. The reasons for this is A). it boosts the sales B). gets rid of a fiddly metal model and C). People who own lots of (nerfed) Warriors will want something to replace them - and plastic Flayed Ones as Troops are a perfect fit.


And now a separate category for oddities:

Tomb Spyders - If I had to pick one unit as the 'new kit that gets crap rules' (like Possessed and the Thunderfire Cannon), I'd pick the Tomb Spyder. A fancy new look, metal or plastic, really doesn't matter, and rules that leave you scratching your head.

Scarabs - What happens to them depends on what happens to Necron Warriors (as they're on the same sprue). Having said that, as everyone owns Scarab Swarms and I seriously doubt it's worth their effort making a new sculpt, they have nothing to lose by nerfing these guys to drive the sales of newer kits.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I1 vs I2 makes no difference, as they're still slower than regular Marines & Guardsmen. Besides, FNP covers for a lot problems.

There is one difference, whether you hit before or simultaneously with Power fists or Thunderhammers.