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JohnHwangDD wrote:
IMO, dropping Ard Boyz (as it currently stands) isn't a bad idea. In fact, I think that killing Ard Boyz would be an excellent idea. GW really did a foolish thing by encouraging non-Sports, non-Paint, non-Comp play. This was a terrible idea, and the results are exactly what one would have expected - dodgy sportsmanship and unhappy people.

No, just no. 'Ard Boyz is the only tournament that a lot of people I know have any interest in because it's a "tournament", not a "hobby". This makes it more attractive to a Gamer, somebody who just wants to show up and game with whatever whackiness they are able to pull off.

Sportsmanship as a gradeable criteria? Come on, this is so bogusly subjective that penalizing anybody for it is ridiculous. "Did you beat me? If yes, you're a bad sport."

'Ard Boyz is fine, it's GW that needs to actually regulate their tournaments properly.

Is the dice dropping thing at all hard to notice?
From it's description it sounds really blatant.

I simply hope that this issue subsides before your GT running crew decide they can't be bothered anymore, and scrap it leaving you with no GW tourneys.

Don't take them for granted, you have some fantastic people behind the GW community scene that is unique compared to the rest of the world in the form of Chris G and Dave T, take my word for it when I say that it's no fun having your local scene throw in the towel and can your GT's. Don't take them for granted!

Also keep in mind that no matter what the situation, if it was you in that persons shoes, the situation could not have possibly occurred (I'm sure I'm not the only one who is positive that this couldnt possibly happen to them).
If the solution can be as simple as "don't be stupid" - why is there need to drag everyone through the mud, or would it not be easier just to learn from it and leave the matter to lie in its stalemate?

Orkeosaurus wrote:Is the dice dropping thing at all hard to notice?
From it's description it sounds really blatant.

It is if you don't know what you're looking for.

Its very subtle. One round you'll see the guy rolling seemingly random results, the next round, while rolling in the same way, he will have significantly better rolls.

The saddest part is that learning dice mechanics isn't difficult at all. Much easier than becoming even an amateur card mechanic. It would take you about a week of "dry" runs and practicing by yourself for a couple hours an evening before you would be ready to try it in front of actual people.

I like the idea of event-provided dice. It gives you a nice little souvenir as well. I also really like the idea of dice towers. They're easy to make and eliminate almost 100% of the dice manipulation that goes on at tournaments.

IF (and that's a big IF) what has been detailed in the previous posts is accurate, than this casts a bit of a taint over the WC and the actions if its member(s) in this tournament.

For whatever that's worth.

Sorry but your whole post came across to me as:

1. GW doesn't need to host these events

2. No one likes cheating but it happens, so get over it and don't let it bother you

3. Someone cheating and they shouldn't be called out by the online community by it, we should just pretend it didn't happen and move on.


First off:
1. yes they do need to put these events on. They bring people in and keep people in the hobby. Do you honestly believe for a second that GW doesn't gain more than they lose on these events? I would be willing to bet money that if it wasn't for these events there would be a lot less people in this hobby.

2. Judges are there to enforce rules. If cheating wasn't a big deal, why would we need judges, if there was a disagreement, why not just roll of on it like the book says. That being said any judge should know the game inside and out. As with different gaming communities, Take Magic the Gathering (Wizards of the Coast). Their judges are rediculously well informed and know every in and out of every rule. If a judge makes a wrong call it is a huge deal and will be talked about. As far as cheating with other gaming companies (WotC) again. They enforce bans 1-2 years or even lifetime bans depending on the severity. They have taken a strong stand against cheating and why shouldn't GW?

3. Finally, again referencing WotC, when someone does cheat in these other gaming communities, they are called out on it. In a competitive environment you shouldn't be trying to cheat your way to a lead. Also in any other sport if cheating is discovered after the fact, do we not strip people of their titles and such? Why should we just sweep this under the rug? It gives GW a terrible reputation and I am sure some people will give up the hobby over it.

sourclams wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, dropping Ard Boyz (as it currently stands) isn't a bad idea.

'Ard Boyz is fine, it's GW that needs to actually regulate their tournaments properly.

The problem is that this isn't reflective of the sort of gaming that GW claims to espouse as indicative of "the GW Hobby" (tm). For better or for worse, events are what people see the hobby as. Things like Ard Boyz are a problem because GW encourages friendly play as the norm. So why encourage and reward the tiny fraction (hardcore gamers) of the tiniest fraction (tournament players)? Having "Best General" as a prize at their regular events is plenty enough. And realistically, the community will always step in to organize these kinds of events if there is such a demand, saving GW the trouble. Just like the FAQs.

In many ways, GW would do better to host an anti-Ard Boyz event in which the overwhelming weight was on player's choice, painting, sports, comp, and finally battle, with most "battles" being interesting / Troops-oriented scenarios or puzzles of some sort.

____

Orkeosaurus wrote:Is the dice dropping thing at all hard to notice?
From it's description it sounds really blatant.

It's very easy, *if* you know what to look for.

The problem is that most players don't know what to look for. And there are multiple tricks one can use, so that makes it easier yet again. The other thing is, you don't need to do this all the time. Think about how many sets of die rolls are critical in a game. If you focus on manipulating the 20% of the rolls that really matter, that's probably enough of an edge to guarantee the win in an otherwise tight game.

That's why I bring up Casinos. The pit bosses have seen everything, so they know *exactly* what to watch for. After all, when each roll of the dice has hundreds or thousands of dollars riding on it, people start to pay very close attention.
____

Bunker wrote:The saddest part is that learning dice mechanics isn't difficult at all. Much easier than becoming even an amateur card mechanic. It would take you about a week of "dry" runs and practicing by yourself for a couple hours an evening before you would be ready to try it in front of actual people.

I like the idea of event-provided dice. It gives you a nice little souvenir as well. I also really like the idea of dice towers. They're easy to make and eliminate almost 100% of the dice manipulation that goes on at tournaments.

If, by "actual people", you're talking about amateur gamers, then yeah, that'd be plenty enough.

Event dice would solve so many problems. You could even set design as the 1 to help balance the die weight for more neutral results. Dice towers are nice, but kind of bulky. That's why I suggest cups and a tray.

@ Timmah

That's more or less what I took away from his post as well. I also agree with your assessments.

Closing discussion about this situation and sweeping it under the rug benefits no one except the offender. Problems with the community and its tournaments don't get fixed by ignoring them. Recognizing that there are problems and acknowledging what has happened is the first step to solving those problems. Unfortunately, it seems many here are unwilling to do even that.

Useful clarification on a sidebar to the 'aard boyz issue...

(apologies for beating what should be a dead horse!)

The Wrecking Crew club in its' current incarnation might as well be called the 'friends of Marc Parker' club. Aside from a website (that has been down for a few months now) there is little to no contact between the majority of members. Marc meets someone he likes at any given GT and invites them to join. Often times that is the extent of any given members involvement.

For instance, in between tournaments I talk to Marc and Neal Cauley and that's about it. Most of the other 'members' have this type of interaction also as near as I can tell. There are a few members that are into hardcore forum/internet presence and give the illusion that there is something closer knit going on but only a few. There is no heavily intertwined, scheming club scene. The vast majority of WC'rs just happen to be 'friends of Marc Parker'. That's it. That's all. Nothing more. No kidding. Posts about behind the scenes WC drama, etc. are off base, unfounded and ridiculous in their reach for conspiratorial effect.

With this in mind it is fairly dissonant and meaningless to say inclusive things like "...WC should do this or that... or ...all WC players are..." If you have an issue with any given person(s) address your issue directly to that person(s). That's much cleaner and simpler. If someone else joins the fray, address them as well. Try to avoid overly inclusive generalizations. Makes for better interaction.

On another note, the calls for punishment are comical. The only 'punishment' that could be doled out to a WC member would be locking someone out of the website (whose forums don't work anyways) or not returning their call if any given member happens to be a friend. Sorry, there is just no soap opera to be had, although some folks here seem to live for the possibility of that kind of stuff.

The kind of 'extraneous to the actual incident' nonsense I have been reading on Dakka for the last few days reminds me why I (almost) never join clubs and why I rarely, if ever, participate in online forums.

Neal Cauley is 50 and I am 45. He is a gentle, friendly soul. He may have it right on this issue. We talked a few days ago and I updated him about the current go 'round of stuff on this website. Neal's advice was play, have fun and under no circumstances participate in online forums. He told me that years ago an overdose of forum type interaction ruined his ability to enjoy the hobby and almost drove him away from gaming permanently.

With that in mind I have a request for any helpful moderator. Please remove my username/account from this website. I have been able to have a little bit of fun here but mostly I don't enjoy this sort of thing (actually, outside of business utility, I don't much enjoy the internet as a whole). I would rather read a book. Anyways, please erase/cancel/whatever, my account.

One more thing. I am wore out on 40K as a hobby. I'm putting my pink shirts back in the closet. Fortunately I have a lot of other life interests and hobbies that I very much enjoy. I have already liquidated most of my stuff to a few friends. I have remaining a large Tau army of about 3,000 points painted to tournament quality and about 2,000 points of other, partially painted Tau stuff. I also have about 4,000 points of well painted Sisters for sale.

I would appreciate any insight in to what a reasonable price would be for these two blocks of stuff. If anyone happens to be interested in either or both armies I can be reached at ssimpson@bham.rr.com.

Have a good life...

There are two things people are discussing here that seem to need some work...

Reality vs bubble world

Reality is where the majority of people sit on this issue. That is "get over it you whiny little babies" Grow the up and realize you're crying that someone you don't even know lost a game that you don't even know if there was cheating involved. you only know hearsay and for that matter you're crusading for someone who may not even care! Fight your own battles. I teaching high school kids with more maturity then this.

Bubble world is where anyone who can't handle the fact that they aren't the best can be found. Hate to pop your bubble... but yea you suck.

frgsinwntr wrote:There are two things people are discussing here that seem to need some work...

Reality vs bubble world

Reality is where the majority of people sit on this issue. That is "get over it you whiny little babies" Grow the up and realize you're crying that someone you don't even know lost a game that you don't even know if there was cheating involved. you only know hearsay and for that matter you're crusading for someone who may not even care! Fight your own battles. I teaching high school kids with more maturity then this.

Bubble world is where anyone who can't handle the fact that they aren't the best can be found. Hate to pop your bubble... but yea you suck.

frgsinwntr wrote:There are two things people are discussing here that seem to need some work...

Reality vs bubble world

Reality is where the majority of people sit on this issue. That is "get over it you whiny little babies" Grow the up and realize you're crying that someone you don't even know lost a game that you don't even know if there was cheating involved. you only know hearsay and for that matter you're crusading for someone who may not even care! Fight your own battles. I teaching high school kids with more maturity then this. [hopefully you aren't teaching them English]

Bubble world is where anyone who can't handle the fact that they aren't the best can be found. Hate to pop your bubble... but yea you suck.

A whiny diatribe condemning people who post whiny diatribes? Calling people both immature and "whiny little babies" at the same time? I can't tell if you're posting this to be funny or if you're serious. What's the weather like in reality?

Danny Internets wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:There are two things people are discussing here that seem to need some work...

Reality vs bubble world

Reality is where the majority of people sit on this issue. That is "get over it you whiny little babies" Grow the up and realize you're crying that someone you don't even know lost a game that you don't even know if there was cheating involved. you only know hearsay and for that matter you're crusading for someone who may not even care! Fight your own battles. I teaching high school kids with more maturity then this. [hopefully you aren't teaching them English]

Bubble world is where anyone who can't handle the fact that they aren't the best can be found. Hate to pop your bubble... but yea you suck.

A whiny diatribe condemning people who post whiny diatribes? Calling people both immature and "whiny little babies" at the same time? I can't tell if you're posting this to be funny or if you're serious. What's the weather like in reality?

Typically I make fun of people and my humor isn't quite that good at 5am

Bunker wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:There are two things people are discussing here that seem to need some work...

Reality vs bubble world

Reality is where the majority of people sit on this issue. That is "get over it you whiny little babies" Grow the up and realize you're crying that someone you don't even know lost a game that you don't even know if there was cheating involved. you only know hearsay and for that matter you're crusading for someone who may not even care! Fight your own battles. I teaching high school kids with more maturity then this.

Bubble world is where anyone who can't handle the fact that they aren't the best can be found. Hate to pop your bubble... but yea you suck.

this made me spit coffee out of my nose

frgsinwntr wrote:



this made me spit coffee out of my nose

You're welcome

Deadshane1 wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:A great number of the posts of your membership do not come across as this. I won't drag names through the mud, so nobody will be openly named by me, but there seems to be a large amount of egotism in many posts I see by WC members. THAT (IMO) is what gives the WC a "bad name" or automatically puts a sour taste in people's mouths about you guys.
You might consider reminding your members to be respectful on the boards you visit. That is often not the case (though, i can only speak for my experience at Dakka).

This is somewhat true and perhaps we should evaluate the effect this has on people in the future. To be fair though, it was only one thread containing the "back patting" and I dont think thats going out of bounds really for discussion online. Our club DID do real well this year in the circuit, its definatly something to be proud of.

GBF posts the most out of all of us here and is a self admitted "Troll" of sorts as in his sig. Any posts by him should be weighed in appropriatley. I can be very opinionated myself but neither of us "Wave the Banner of WC" while arguing. We're simply other dakkites....

Well, I'd honestly have liked to see a bit more of my post answered/commented on, but I appreciate that you took the time at all.

I want to clarify what I mean,, however, to be certain you don't have me mistaken.

Since you mentioned yourself and GBF, I will too. This is still hypothetical, however.
If I see posts by you or GBF and they make me think, "What a F***ing jerk," I think that about YOU, or GBF. Not WC. I don't start thinking, "Man. that WC sux. Look at these 2 guys posts."
Now, the more I see from WC members that comes across as "jerky," the more it WILL reflect on the WC.
"I wonder how many more WC members are like these two."
(Again, no accusations. hypotheticals only).

Also, as for this:

To be fair though, it was only one thread containing the "back patting" and I dont think thats going out of bounds really for discussion online.

(Semi) Agreed. There was only 1 "back patting" thread and, while it would've been more appropriate on the WC forums, it wasn't out of line here. I wasn't really taking about that one thread.

Often, in any sort of discussion where the WC or a member of the WC might be mentioned, SOMEONE from the WC makes sure to tout your excellence and mastery above all. Yes. That's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the picture.
It does get to the point where it seems like condescending and egotistical braging, even if that isn't how it's meant

Lastly... the posts asking for money to get the WC forums running again were annoying, too. : )

Eric

Aduro wrote:Didn't he say the judge's name was Devlon or something like that at one point?

If memory serves, he used the phrase, "the black one" in referencing the judge.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

Aduro wrote:Didn't he say the judge's name was Devlon or something like that at one point?

If memory serves, he used the phrase, "the black one" in referencing the judge.

Eric

Yeah I seen that too.. which worsened the taste in my mouth for this whole situation.

Mausama

Nothing personal, Mausama... but I think you might be reading too much into that one.

If all the judges were black but one, and he referred to the white guy as "the white one," since he didn't know his name, it would be okay. Right?

Same thing here to me.

It's like saying "the fat guy" or "the short guy" or any other identifying trait that one person has that none of the others do.

...provided you DON'T know their names (which it seems he didn't).


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote: "the fat guy"

I prefer "festively plump" thank you very much.

But yeah, I don't think calling him "the black one" was a shot at all, more of a way of describing him accurately in a situation where that would be the best descriptor.

Hmm.. maybe it does hit alittle closer to home to me than others, but its not the fact that he said he was black its "the black one".. not "the black guy".

Two totally different things..

Not going to go into great detail.. because this will turn into something else.. but yeah..

Mausama

G

LOL - that's funny GBF.....

This isn't going anywhere. Locked.