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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:GW are now at the stage where, in some respects the stores are a millstone round their necks, but at the same time are keeping the company going by doing what they do best, bringing in the new blood. Some self appointed interweb experts say they should drop the stores, but this would be corporate suicide. Their entire business model revolves around these stores...

Well dropping them all overnight would indeed be catastrophic. Any drastic major change in direction like that would sink a company. The question is though whether GW nailing their colours to the "store model" mast is the right move in an age where increasing volumes of sales are done over the internet.

Clearly this year we saw GW attempt to rationalise their stores and dump the most costly. Some have been replaced by a more carefully targetted number.

Will this pay off? Time will tell. The recent departure of Dave Taylor, to his disappointment, from GWUS might indicate that there is still pain to be felt?

The whole "organised play" issue is a big one for companies. Stores, tournaments, community support is expensive and it can be hard to demonstrate the benefits for the company. So it is an easy target when times are hard. Personally I don't think the right thing to do is axe everything overnight, but I do think the right thing to do is foster long term players of the game, and not simply seek the "kiddie dollar". Very carefully targetted and monitored community support is perhaps the right thing I believe, but that is a much harder thing to achieve than simply opening a new store and shutting it down again six months later when it's made a loss. Maybe more interaction with the wider gaming community might be better achieved with a more interactive website and a really strong clubs team?

January's 2nd quarter acccounts will, as ever, be interesting.

It is an interesting time, I think we can all agree on that. There is also greater tumult in the High Street beyond GW, and I don't think one can discard that out of hand.

GW are a fairly unique entity, not just in terms of what they offer, but as a company with a chain of shops selling exclusively their own gear. Their concentration on closing down loss making stores (sensible) and then re-targetting the area (sensible) is costly for sure, but then, what else are they meant to do?

Far too many Intarwebs Exparts love to rag on GW, claiming sloppy business practices etc, with very little evidence beyond their bizarre wish to see GW crumble to back up such claims.

Also, consider their demograph (btw, this is to the general forum, rather than a reply to Osbad!). It is several times larger than even their nearest competitor. Sure, PP customers are generally a happy bunch, but that is easier to achieve than with GW's number of customers. As I one said on Warseer, give me 10 people, and I can make all of them happy. Give me 100, and I can probably do the same trick, though one or two might feel it to a lesser degree. But give yourself 1,000,000,000 regular customers, and a fair proportion aren't going to feel catered to at any given moment.

GW are doing the right thing in concentrating on recruiting more customers. People dropping out is hardly a new thing to them. Hell, out of the 20 or so gamers I knew in school, only 2 of us are still active. The others might paint the odd model now and again, but a new purchase is an extreme rarity for them.

The problem stems from the entry age, and GW have done their best to tackle it (well, in my opinion). When I worked for them, and to this day, to take part in Sunday Beginners, the minimum age was 12. At this age, it is reckoned the kid should be able to take in the whole of the hobby. Show them the various paths open, and the chance of retaining them in one of those aspects goes up considerably. And yet, by the age of 16, out of any 20 newbies, only a couple will still be playing. The others might drift in and out, but it's those two who then garner the most attention from the company. They are the future money spinners.

Then, around the age of 20ish, a curious thing happens, some of those who fell by the wayside return. They are generally less caring of others opinions, something which contributes mightily to customer loss at the age of 16. So they come back in, and the staff do their best to get them back into it. The success rate isn't that high, but they all generally make some kind of purchase (the latest, nicest looking model usually and some paints).

Veterans however, are an extremely fickle bunch. The majority of self proclaimed Veterans have no real right to call themselves so, as they remain utterly dependant on GW to give them somewhere to game, paint, model etc. GW's definition of a Veteran is someone only seen in the store when making a purchase, as they have their own gaming circle or club to do the rest in.

And I ask again, beyond putting on Tournaments, running Games Days and Open Days, excactly what more can the company do that is cost effective to please these so called Veterans? Free models? I don't think so. More advanced rules? If enough people were to buy them, perhaps, but seemingly there aren't.

It's a complex thing pleasing your customers!

I agree with you MDG that I think GW are in a heck of a better shape than they were even a year ago, and certainly 3 years ago with regards customer satisfaction. One simple example for me is thw whole approach to 5th edition. It's not perfect but it is 1000% better than the way they approached 3rd and 4th editions.

The question is whether too many bled away in the period 2001-04 in the period when GW management had convinced themselves they were on the LotR gravy-train for life.

Regarding ragging on GW management. I would agree there is a lot of uninformed opinion, both anti- and pro- GW. Much knee-jerk jerkism is in evidence!

In favour of hard evidence of what I would generally call "taking the customer for granted", or the idea that customers are very "price inelastic" and will continue to buy any old tat at any old price forevermore which seemed to prevail (to my eyes at least), I could site several conversations with (now) former employees who have commented on such things as GW's sales internally circulated predictions expecting the LotR sales to continue to grow through 2006 when "the internet's" prediction of them tumbling after RotK in 2004 was proved more correct, the setting of the £12 unit box price on the basis that this is the "average pocket money of a 15 year-old in the UK, the BUY THE GIANT issue 316 of White Dwarf, Tom Kirby's own description of GW management being "fat and lazy" in the annual accounts.

And so forth.

Sure many other things (such as the sensible decision to axe the unaffordable bitz programme, or the introduction of Apocalypse) are wrongly touted as being GW corporate greed, but that doesn't take away from the real evidence that for a crucial period around the turn of the millennium until a year or 2 ago, GW clearly took their "loyal customer base" completely for granted, and made some poor business decisions on the back of it.

I do agree totally with your comment that much of the whinging on the internet is GW's customers simply being lazy and unimaginative.

Where we perhaps differ is our impression of the signal-to-noise ratio in the fan commentary. The internet has a good track record of predicting the demise of games companies - look at what happened when Rackham ignored their customers and axed Confrontation 3rd ed overnight, and what happened to Mongoose when they persisted with pushing Battlefield Evo out even though "the ignorant internet whingers" kept telling them the product was not up to par? Sure there is a lot of bollox talked on the internet, but it is relatively easy to filter it out and spot the key messages coming through if you are so minded. Something else oft-spouted by former employees is GW management's collective ability to stick its fingers in its ears and pretend not to hear messages that challenge the status-quo or threaten the bonuses of middle-management!

I think GW are a lot better now at meeting the "needs" of the customer than they used to, but they still have a ways to go.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And I ask again, beyond putting on Tournaments, running Games Days and Open Days, excactly what more can the company do that is cost effective to please these so called Veterans? Free models? I don't think so. More advanced rules? If enough people were to buy them, perhaps, but seemingly there aren't.

It's a complex thing pleasing your customers!

I think the "needs" of the ex-GW customers are two-fold. Tighter rules so that there is better FAQ support and greater consistency (not that it bothers me, being a completely casual gamer, but I can see how many customers have been turned off by their perceived lack of appreciation of the more competitive style of gamer), and secondly the price of models: GW are still looking less competitive than many options, which means GW loses all but the most dedicated of fans as customers. But I have said that already at great length. Neither need be hugely costly, indeed if GW customers are less price-inelastic than GW care to believe, then the latter should in fact generate more income, not less.

I have to admit, even I have felt a peculiarly rosey glow about Fantasy Battle since the new edition.

I don't know if it's the spanky new models, or the Army Books containing a lot more than just the rules, but I feel there is a second (or 23rd depending on how cynical you are dear reader) wind in Fantasy.

Ever since the Vampire Counts came out, I cannot think of a single duff model having been released. Sure, artistic tastes may vary from person to person, but there is nothing as universally reviled as the Grotesques for instance. The new Khorne Lord on Juggernaught is simply a masterpiece, and the new Chaos range as a whole is absolutely lovely!

We shall have to wait and see how things go. As you said, the January figures ought to make interesting reading.

On the topic of being overpriced, I now have far more disposable income to spend than I did 10 years ago. But I probably spend less than a third of what I used to spend on the hobby. This is not because I don't want to, but because I just can't justify it anymore. I pick up a box of whatever and just think to myself, this isn't worth £xxx they want to charge me, and put the box back. I then go and spend my money on other models. I buy nothing from GW anymore, everything is bought for 20% less on Ebay stores. Even the Books are up to 50% cheaper from Amazon than Ebay.

I'm currently putting together a Gundam Perfect Grade Kit which cost me around £90. The models stands the same height as a 40k Warhound, comes in +600 parts on 36 plastic sprues. Everything works, all the joints move with full articulation, with the amour plates sliding over the model to aid the movement. It requires no glue, the detail on the plastic is simply stunning, and the mould lines are non existant. It also comes with a working lighting kit and the plastic is coloured, so if you were lazy you really don't need to paint it. Compare this with a Baneblade kit, on about 10 sprues, with very little moving parts or complexity requires glues, paints, and costs £50.

I remember what brought me into the GW hobby. Space Crusade. GW should really consider designing some more basic offshoot games to appeal to the mass market, and recruit new hobbyists that way. The set-up costs to play a game of 40k are ridiculous. Lets say you buy an army deal for £150. Then you need £50ish (conserative estimate) for paints and supplies. Before you can even play, you need a £50 rule book, dice, tapes, templates. Your not far off £300 before you can have your first game.

I feel that GW should introduce some form of loyalty card scheme, a bit like the Skullz promotion they did 10 years ago (yes, it was that long ago!). For every £10 you spend, £0.50 goes on your loyalty card etc.

But thats the thing, the Gundam Kit mentioned is *not* designed for wargaming, it's a display piece. You manhandle it as often as GW kit, and it's going to break.

Also, consider the various overheads again. They produce the thing, probably using far cheaper labour, and then export it around the world. GW don't have this luxury.

Though I do agree about the Space Crusade thing. Trick is finding someone who will go into it with them.

WH40k Skirmish ...
Both sides have 1-3 units ,at about 300-500 pts max; on 20"by20" board; objectives placed randomly round the map ... to play the each side is delt 5 stat card (these come in decks of movement, shooting, CC, luck (note luck can be any thing)) these boost the stats of a unit, for the game or a single action; then 1D6 objectives cards which the player most carry out ... the winner is the person to complete all there objective first ... game time half an hour to an hour ... if an objective is too easy/ hard a new objective can be delt

you can start this cheap game and once you've got the hang you can start playing with the big boys

I had an even betterer plan before I got hoofed off Warseer!

Essentially, it was a bizarre hybrid of Heroquest/Space Crusade, and CMG.

The thinking was to provide a basic dungeoneering rules package, with some dungeon tiles and enough models to set you up. Then the clip together models GW *already* sell, have stat cards for said game included, along with a Website Code to unlock things like additional dungeon tiles, special items, or even limited models (plenty enough in the back catalogue!).

The theory is, that the kids will start playing as many of us did, perfectly innocent dungeoneering. Then, slowly over a period of time, with prices set around pocket money (£6 a week I think is reasonable) their collections grow, until when they are old enough, bam, instant small 40k army. This is essentially spreading the cost of the startup over a couple of years..bit here...bit there...little more...and something special etc.

It was quite ingenious, and not all my own work! The plan was to keep it simple enough that beyond churning out the rules and tiles to start with, nothing new has to be added beyond what GW already offer.

... new unlock tile on the interweb? oh i see you print them off yep that would be cool ... you right £6 a week is the way to go (may be if i think about it that way i can start getting my wrathgaurd army going in 2-3 yrs ^_^ )

i agree, the main reason its hard to get players is how many people are willing to fork out £200-300 on a game (this is a rough guess for a player starting out and includes models, rule books, paint, brushes and terrain) when you can get a console + x games for the same price and have instant fun

To avoid derailing this thread, my idea is now in a thread all it's own!

All are welcome to stick their oar in over there. All criticism welcome, as long as it is constructive!

Tri wrote:i agree, the main reason its hard to get players is how many people are willing to fork out £200-300 on a game (this is a rough guess for a player starting out and includes models, rule books, paint, brushes and terrain) when you can get a console + x games for the same price and have instant fun

Yeah for wargaming you fork out a load of cash and then have to put a load of work in assembling and painting the models and making terrain before you can have any "fun" playing the game.

Now many of us enjoy the craft element of the hobby, but many do not, and even for those that do it looks a little like we are paying GW (or whoever) for the privelige of working hard on our own models. It strikes me as a bit of a cheek for a model manufacturer to charge for the "opportunity to assemble and paint your models". All they have the right to charge for, as I see it, is the design and manufacturer of the raw materials for my hobby. They surely have no right to charge for the effort I will be putting into the hobby myself!

Compared to many other options of hobby activity where someone else has done all the hard work, this is offputting to many.

Of course, then you start going down the "prepainted" route, and looking at Rackham, the cost of entering that market mean prices don't tend to come any cheaper - at least at the UK, so while you get "ready to play" units, you end up paying through the nose for them (£3 per plastic pre (mediocrely) painted toy soldier! Really?!!)

Hehe, I know I come across as a real tightwad, but seriously, I have to work really hard (when I'm not spodding on the internet!) for my money, so I don't like to give it a way without being sure I have got the best value for it I can realistically achieve.

Thats the thing though.

I can't say if it's being pitched properly the world over, but in my day, we were trained to promote the Hobby over the game. No point in the parent buying anything if the kid doesn't want to build and paint his force.

Also, start up can be a lot cheaper than you think. We don't all start off with 2,000 point armies, and depending on where your purchasing money goes, you can get a decent force for maybe £100.

I totally agree that it is possible to build a relatively low cost army over time. And also, many of the good staff at stores will help the parent (or n00b) make sensible purchases to give them the best value for money, rather than milking them dry.

I agree to the extent that I bought Black Reach, flogged off the Orks and am slowly adding to the Marines myself. I wouldn't do it if I didn't believe it was good value! You know me! I've had a handful of fun games at 500 points with the army in various stages of assembly, and am getting a Rhino and a Drop Pod as Chrimbo pressies.

BUT, that requires a good knowledge of GW stock, online discounters (I got BR for £27 sealed, delivered!), ebay etc. A good staffer will help to some extent, but he can't offer discount.

For many the "sticker shock" can be offputting, and the realisation that they are handing over a 20 spot for a handful of small plastic bits and bobs every couple of weeks can be sobering.

The magic works if you can "sell the dream", but the higher the sticker price, the harder it is to justify, and the more careful the salesman has to be.

And that's a model that may work in a UK, GW-store-saturated environment. In the (say) US where GW products sit side-by-side in Indie stores with competitors products, and the salesmen may not be as *ahem* "committed" to GW, it is even harder again.

Cracking the US market is key to the success of GW in the short term as the UK market is saturated, Europe is stagnant and Asia is tiny. Can they do that with what appear to be somewhat high prices in such a keenly competitive market?

I dunno. In my experience, once they have a handle that this is a time intensive hobby with educational benefits, the parents are happy to pay the price.

But as you said, that all depends on the staff. When I worked for them, several times a kid wanders up with a Landraider, and I'd talk to them first about what they have etc. If they had a fair army, then a Landraider it is. If they are just starting out, I'd reccomend they look at the more basic units.

Something that has just come to my attention is that sales of the £150 Battle Board are reported to be "strong". That's coming from an online discounter, and of course is anecdotal. As a high-tarrif item that perhaps indicates something. Not sure what.

Regarding your good practice and success in the UK, I acknowledge it. Would it work in a US Indie where the sales rep could then say... OK, so that's a little high, so Little Johnny could have a WWII Flames of War army which is not only cheaper, but will teach him about history too... (Or insert any other product that springs to mind).

Looking at the way the £ is tanking against the $ and the Euro, it looks like GW may have a good few months ahead from exchange rate gain - Euro-zoners are looking at a >12% saving if they buy online from the UK, and of course US sales will increase in value, as well as exports being cheaper. As a UK-resident company, GW will be profiting from the fall of Stirling.

Well, I dunno if thats entirely unexpected. Sure, the price for it is high, but there aren't any well known competitors out there, and GW seem to have a fair amount of brand trust.

You do raise a good point about the Indies. GW have *no* control over how the models are sold there, but the store owner has to think about whats going to get the repeat Business. If other games can do it, then all is well, if not, and GW do offer it, then he will push that one assumes. Of course, if said Store Owner has a personal aversion to any given game, then he is not likely to promote it.

EDIT

Just been reading the thread about the new Plastic Superheavy. Rather than a 'desperate gamble' as some posters on Warseer labelled it, one would assume Apocalypse has been a very well planned risk by GW. I mean, with the Stompa, thats two new Super Heavy Kits, in plastic, coming out, one of which makes lots of Variants.

Is this an indication of GW's renewed faith in itself?