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70% Markup does not 70% profit make.

Is one of the things which always annoys me when people compare GW to PP etc in terms of price. Yes, GW are expensive, but there overheads are more. So what the hell is PP raking in??

But thats a whole different thread!

With the growth of WM/Hordes are PP's overhead really that much less than GW's? (I know the fact that GW has it's own retail chain likely skews things here)

PP sell to distributors. It's probably possible to find out what the distributors pay for PP product. The price you pay at the checkout isn't controlled by PP.

When GW moved into the US in the 80's they avoided using the existing distributor chain because it was more profitable for them.

Stores are a factor for every B&M purchace you make (and a few online ones too). If GW has additional overheads in this regard it is becasue of the way GW stores are run.

Retail chain skews things enormously.

I'm going to use what I think are 'way to low numbers'. Figure that on average, each of those stores pays 3k a month in rent, and 4k in payroll. Add in utilities, accounting, insurance and workmens comp, phone, and all the little expenses that go with running a business, and they have a minimum cost each month of 10k. For 350 stores that's 3.5 million a month, or 42 million a year.

The 10k figure is less than half the monthly costs I have at either of my comic/game shops.

PP has two manufacturing facilities and a corporate HQ. They don't have the costs associated with their own chain of stores, but also don't sell at full retail to anyne. Comparing GW and PP's costs vs sales would need a lot of data, as their models are substantially different.

So what the hell is PP raking in??

Substantially less than GW, at a guess, based on retailer support. PP doesn't send out much of anything to retailers, even demo kits. GW supplies many stores with full copies of their games, and partnership stores get a nice monthly 'black box' full of new models to show off.
(My stomper is getting here in the next few days-Huzzah!) GW is an older company with deeper roots. And that maturity and global market alone make it more difficult to compare the two business models.

JohnHwangDD wrote:It seems like an awful lot of work for GW's Bavarian Illuminati to engineer a global recession just to knock out Rackham when Rackham seems to have already done most of the work themselves...

Heh joking aside I moved back to GW from Rackham after the pre-paints began. So did several people I know....Also as I see it GW's big advantage is that you can usually find someone who plays it wherever you go. I travel a lot for work and it's much easier to get an opponent for GW's games than anybody elses, so I tend to buy and play them.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Except, I *want* 3 Basilisks. If I only wanted 1, then I'd only buy 1. But 3 Bassies?

DO WANT!

So I'm going to buy 3 and get the discount (and then I can field the Apocalypse Basilisk Formation).

Now, granted, I already have 1 Bassie, so I only need 2.

But I also have 2 scratchbuilt Hellhounds, and can use a 3rd Hellhound to complete the set (although I think the Apoc Hellhound Formation is poo, so I won't bother with that).

So, for me, the 3 Basilisk boxed set gives me all of the Basilisk / Hellhound chassis that I "need" to "complete" my conventional Guard armor, and it saves me a few bucks.

So that's pretty darn good, IMO.

Yes but I was assuming he was talking about the regular guy who may not be you - the guy who might not have a use for the extra chimera chassis. In the end that guy still gives more to GW than if he just bought the one or two Basies he did need. Why? Because OMG THAT DEAL IS RIGHT THERE!

@stonefox: If you looked into my backlog, I'm sitting on a few (ok, probably *several*) hundred (no, it's not thousands) bucks worth of unbuilt GW stuff.

But then, that regular guy probably also has a backlog, so we'll ignore that.

The only difference is that I'm more disciplined about what goes into my backlog, and how quickly it grows.

Shep wrote:

he'll watch battlestar galactica on his smaller low res tv....

Us geeks have the High Res HUGE Screen TV just for Battlestar!

If you take a mental trip back to the 80's there were a load of games companies, they compeated with each other. recession hit, and people cut back, but what they did was not cut back evenly, some companies went to the wall, others flurished. GW was one that did well. Share price has more then quadruples in the last 10 years (must get accurate data, suspects its even higher then that) and no matter how much you may bitch over the price of their stuff, its good plastic crack for at least reasonable prices!

HOWEVER the REAL winner for them is how they have grown up as a business. It used to be a company of geeks for geeks, then they got all corporate and nearly threw it away by alienating their fan base with some really bad "Pure Business" decisions.

They now have solid support from people doing good things in terms of procurement, finance, legal, etc while retaining an eliment of "Geek Control" so they can tap into the geek conciousness, which is where their TRUE money lies.

So now they feed the older geek needs (Apoc being a classic example, permission to play the game as an adult with what ever figures you have PLUS suddenly no matter how they change the codex's you can still use every model you ever buy! Brilliant!) plus bringing the kids into the hobby with shiny new plastic crack.

They are going to have a tough time, prices in China for production have gone up, but alteast they are not buying up all the metal in the world inflating material prices, people will spend a little less, but they have grounds for capping pay increases, tougher temp staff wage negotiation, procurement cost negotiations etc, but they will continue to grow.

I'd be VERY shocked if GW ever went anywhere but up.....

I don't thinkg GW is going bankrupt any time soon, but "Share price has more then quadruples in the last 10 years (must get accurate data, suspects its even higher then that)" is not even close to accurate. The financial chart on on yahoo shows that the company has lost half its value going from over 400 per share to 206 since 2003. The basically peaked at the beginning of 2005 and has been struggling since then.

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=GAW.L&t=my&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

good news - hope GW learned a lesson with Apoc and the recent string of great releases.

I guess when IG drop, us 40Kers will know for sure.

As a person who has seen all of this through a different gaming system (Classic Battletech) I can say quite honestly that GW is starting to get it. Look at the Battle for Macragge set. You got some Space Marines and 'Nids plus a scenery piece, dice, templates, measuring stick, and the Rule Book for under $50 American. At the time this came out, this was unheard of from GW. remember the basic Army sets were $90 American, and damn near all of them could not be used for an army except to bolster them because they did not come with an HQ choice. So what would you buy, something for $50 that had everything you needed to start playing the scenarios, and then you went out and expanded, Or, you went out and bought an Army set for double that ,and then spent another $50 for the rule book, another $50 to100 for the HQ choice, and anything else you needed to fill in with. So you needed about $300 dollars just to field an 500- 1000 point army. Now try spending $30 for a Battletech Box Set with Maps, 12 mechs, Dice, and basic rules. What game would you play? By starting off with Macragge, and then going to Apocalypse, and winding up with the Black Reach set, GW is starting to realize that you need to provide some value. That old "Bang for the Buck" thing. So instead of spending all of my money on Battletech, I have been buying GW stuff. The past year has been great, as far as I can see. I have increased both SM and Nids, and have bought IG, Chaos, Tau and Eldar for some of their models. With all of the great Ork stuff, I have picked up some of that as well. I have also purchased a Gorgon and Macharius with Vulcan Cannon. These are some great models, although a bit pricey. One day I would love to get a Warhound Titan, but that is in the future, I guess. When the Stompa and Stormlord come out in March, I will be purchasing these as well. Same thing for the IG in May. So I guess, I would not let these times wear me down as well. As long as GW continues in this direction, I will remain interested.


14th Cadian

@14th - please take a breath and add some paragraph breaks.

Thanks!

JohnHwangDD wrote:@14th - please take a breath and add some paragraph breaks.

Thanks!

Yeah, reading that's like trying to listen to one of those teenage girls who talks extremely fast.

No offense, 14th, it's a good post, just hard to read.

Interesting Tazok, shows its been a while since I last looked at their balance sheet! :-)

The End is Nigh! I'm agreeing with John.

I agree with John - I think that GW has figured out that APOC is the way to showcase 40k. Partly because it lets people play with big tanks and walkers. Partly because it doesn't have to be perfect and balanced. They come close with APOC, but if it doesn't work - that's fine. It gives them a way to 'support' armies that they don't want to still carry (LatD, Kroot Merc) which lets them say (with something of a straight face), "you can still use your models".

And the APOC deals are pretty good. Often times, I look at it and realize that while I might want 2 of something, if I buy the package deal, I get 4 for the price of 3. And the other two will end up in an army at some point (even if it's an ork looted something).

I was just looking at the Tau assault Cadre. Two tau battleforces give you 2 units of FW w/ Devilfish, 2 kroot units, 2 crisis suits, and 6 stealth suits for $180 US. For $325 US, you get 3 FW/Devilfish teams, 15 stealth suits, two hammerheads, and a pirahna - quite a deal if you want most of the box (I wouldn't use 15 stealth suits).

Now try spending $30 for a Battletech Box Set with Maps, 12 mechs, Dice, and basic rules. What game would you play?

Well, based on my sales history for the last 20 years, it looks like GW's 40k starter sets outsold Battletech starter sets by about 30 to 1. This last year 40k starters outsold CBT by a factor of 200 to 3.

Battletech wasn't something you could spend 30.00 and rush off to play with other people. You needed the various campaign books, and mechs that could compete with the mechs your buddies were using. I remember endless complaints as to which year the league would use, and what you could/couldn't use. Fun game, but it had it's warts just like any other game.

dietrich wrote:The End is Nigh! I'm agreeing with John.

Yikes!

dietrich wrote:I agree with John - I think that GW has figured out that APOC is the way to showcase 40k. Partly because it lets people play with big tanks and walkers. Partly because it doesn't have to be perfect and balanced. They come close with APOC, but if it doesn't work - that's fine. It gives them a way to 'support' armies that they don't want to still carry (LatD, Kroot Merc) which lets them say (with something of a straight face), "you can still use your models".

Yup.

And I see that GW doubled down for March with the ne FW Brass Scorpion!

Anybody who thinks that Apoc isn't GW's primary money-maker now needs to have their head examined.

GW taking themselves and their rules has more disadvantages than advantages. PP takes their rules very seriously, and look at all the time and effort it takes with the FAQ/Erratas - and they still don't have everything correct.

mikhaila wrote:Now try spending $30 for a Battletech Box Set with Maps, 12 mechs, Dice, and basic rules. What game would you play?

Well, based on my sales history for the last 20 years, it looks like GW's 40k starter sets outsold Battletech starter sets by about 30 to 1. This last year 40k starters outsold CBT by a factor of 200 to 3.

Battletech wasn't something you could spend 30.00 and rush off to play with other people. You needed the various campaign books, and mechs that could compete with the mechs your buddies were using. I remember endless complaints as to which year the league would use, and what you could/couldn't use. Fun game, but it had it's warts just like any other game.

It was in the beginning. Original, first edition Battletech from FASA had everything you needed in a single box. It wasn't a figures game as such, but as it took off so quickly they commissioned Ral Partha to do the miniatures. The mistake was introducing so many sea changes in the line-up of robots and rules.

dietrich wrote:GW taking themselves and their rules has more disadvantages than advantages. PP takes their rules very seriously, and look at all the time and effort it takes with the FAQ/Erratas - and they still don't have everything correct.

Yeah, but that has the unintended consequence of creating a very ruthless play environment for PP gamers. Their own forums are a testament to that. GW is FAR - wait, let me repeat - FAR FAR FAR from perfect as a gaming company. But they do try to inspire a more "play" gaming environment, rather than a "WAAC" gaming environment.