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here we go again

ok, for all those people saying "it doesent say the dread could attack back, so he cant":

it also doesent say he cant attack back.

if that make sany sense
it works both ways when stating it like that.

it says its treated as if the ork was charging into CC, and in CC both sides get thier attacks.

but an overall summary: GW feths up the wording and misses alot of details which cause problems, but paying a person to write them instead of a monkey would cost them more than a few bananas.

sourclams wrote:When you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

Killa Kan spam.

9 Kans with Grotzookas (super duper shooty) is 415 points (I think, definitely low 400s).

You will lose some Kans to I4 DCCW attacks, no doubt about it, but they should be able to provide the necessary edge to eliminate the Ironclad threat. The big issue is whether or not you get the charge off. If you're charging, you should definitely be able to at least immobilize the Ironclad with one unit, and probably destroy it. If you're not charging, it's a toss up.

Charging or not it is all the same against Ironclads- they have defensive grenade launchers. They also have I4, and 3 base attacks with DCCW, so unless you have 3 strong kan mobs you probably wont even get to hit him back. I'd go with another option instead. Kans and warbosses are fodder to ironclad dreads.

You are a man of my own heart.

G

I've personally never seen a boarding plank on the table. That being said, if the rule says that it's worked out "exactly as if the ork assaults" the enemy vehicle, then I think a reasonable interpretation would be to work out a combat between the dreadnought and the single ork, meaning the dreadnought can fight, but the ork is treated as a single model unit for purposes of combat resolution, meaning if he dies, it doesn't have an effect on the rest of the squad, who didn't count as assaulting.

Now, as far as how to deal with ironclad spam, I'd think that trukk boys mobs with a nob would do fine, as a nob hits like a lascannon devastator squad on the charge.

Also, death rollas on batttlewagons would crush the crap out of them too.

It really sounds like you just didn't get lucky in your game, which happens to all of us. Also, it's not that unreasonable that ork lists should have at least a couple of "foils" and maybe Ironclad spam lists are one of those, although I frankly can't really see why with the exception of a game with bad rolling.

JD21290 wrote:here we go again

ok, for all those people saying "it doesent say the dread could attack back, so he cant":

it also doesent say he cant attack back.

if that make sany sense
it works both ways when stating it like that.

it says its treated as if the ork was charging into CC, and in CC both sides get thier attacks.

but an overall summary: GW feths up the wording and misses alot of details which cause problems, but paying a person to write them instead of a monkey would cost them more than a few bananas.

JD, you have to be very careful with the words you use here. We're not saying that the rules/codex doesn't say that the dread can attack, therefore it cannot.
We're saying that in order for the dread to attack back, you have to MAKE UP RULES, and BREAK ALL THE EXISTING RULES. When you have to toss the rulebook to let yourself do something, then you shouldn't do it, right?

And it doesn't say that the combat is treated as if the ork were charging into CC and in CC both sides get their attacks. The only thing that the codex tells you is that the ork gets to make attacks on the vehicles, and the parameters for determining how many attacks and at what strength are determined by the same ruleset that determines a charge.

it DOESN'T say that the Ork is charging into CC because it isn't. The Ork stays boarded on his Trukk. Again, there's all sorts of rule-breaking things that are involved if a dreadnought gets to swing back, so the simplest answer is to accept what's written for how it is.

A. You have the Codex and rules as written: You may not like them, but they make sense and work.

B. Extrapolating the Codex to allow close combat to happen: You've now broken the rules and it no longer makes sense.

There's really not a "either way works" on this subject because they don't.

The key wording is "..as if.."

If the ork was charging then it would say exactly that but the addition means its doing somthing specail, which the rules explain. I dont like it but orks are awesome like that.

Edit: I'll say it before & ill say it again.. go after the tiny amount of troops he'll be taking.

I would also focus fire on his troops whenever possible. Don't let his scouts intimidate you.

G

A. You have the Codex and rules as written: You may not like them, but they make sense and work.

B. Extrapolating the Codex to allow close combat to happen: You've now broken the rules and it no longer makes sense.

There's really not a "either way works" on this subject because they don't.

A: im an ork player myself, i just dislike the way the dex has worded the descrip. for the plank and how it works.
seems like they never thought about assulting a vehicle with a WS value.

B: refer to A again.

GW need to really proof read everything 1st and make sure they include details on such things to save problems.

i wouldnt mind waiting another month for a dex to be released if they killed the bugs in it and worded everything better.


Edit: screwed up the quote box.

You are right JD. Phil Kelly writes broken rules that are easily exploited. These kind of circumstances are an example of where the RAW interpretation break down. To say an assault is an assault but it is not assault just does not make any sense. Like I said I am lucky in that people I play who field Orks are reasonable. Pouring milk on corn flakes has nothing to do with the interpretation of a 40k rule. I am constantly amazed how far certain people are willing to take the discussion of the rules for exploitation. It's sad at best.

G

i just wish they took more care when writing rules, as just one feth up can result in an extra 20 mins of a game arguing with someone.
in which i tend to give in and blast the unit to pieces with lootas in my temper

and its people like them that make me think about a biker nob list, just as paybacks for wasting my time.

I'm not sure I understand what the issue is... except an incorrect understanding of the passage in the Ork Codex.

The Codex wording doesn't say that there is an assault... it says A SINGLE ORK attacks "AS IF" he assaulted. The units aren't locked, there is no combat resolution, and there is nothing to suggest that anything other than the Ork attacks are resolved.

If you look in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the definition of "As If" is clear:

1 : as it would be if <it was as if he had lost his last friend>
2 : as one would do if <he ran as if ghosts were chasing him>

Notice neither definition states the descriptive condition was true, and both examples of usage show that the conditions for the activity were not met i.e. if I run as if ghosts were chasing me, it explicitly implies ghosts are NOT chasing me. In fact, the very term "as if" points to a comparable effect being caused by differing conditions.

The emphasis is on the single Ork making it's attacks, not on the "as if" descriptor of "as if it was disembarked and charging".

I'd throw Trukkboyz at the Ironclads and use Power Klaws to kill them from Boarding Planks.

Well after all that, he changed up his list and down-graded the ironclads to plain old AV 12 Multi-Melta dreads, which are significantly less intimidating.

We played Annihilation/Spearhead, and I pulled out a minor victory winning by 1 KP. I would have gotten another if I could have killed his last dread, I assaulted it with a trukk mob turn 4, knocked off all its weapons, stunned it a few times before it won combat in turn 6 and ran the mob off the board - earning it the nickname "Gimpy the Wonder Dread."

Boarding planks are handy - good way to shield the boys from those inevitable explosion results when the nob goes tank hunting. I had never used them before as I had just kind of written off all the vehicle upgrades for trukks other than rams and red paint as too expensive for such a fragile unit.

I managed to get in another game after that one versus a fairly armor-heavy Chaos marines list, and tabled them.

So, thanks for the ideas everybody!

Congrats on the wins!

Did you use boarding planks after all?

Do you know why he decided to downgrade the ironclads or was it purely a points issue?

Boarding planks... Not realiable enough to do the job. Or versitile enough.

By the units
HQ -
Warboss w/ claw will probably die before he swings - except ghazz
SAG - no thank you, not realiable enought.

Eilite
Like most have said - Loota address lots of problems for orks. tank bustas aren't too bad here. Burna need not apply. A small outflanking kommando unit (nob w/ PK) can sucide in, but much to situational.

Troops
Boys + nob/ PK. I'd avoid it though if possible, call this unit your second options. The dread will eventuall go down, but there is a good chance the dread has a heavy flamer and will tourch the boys and tie you up for far too long.

Trucks boys for suicide attacks - there is a chance if you don't kill the Av13 on the change, you're screwed and could break

Fast
Bikers will get there safe, but will die on the charge. cheap suicide unit

Death koopta w/ TL rokkits - not terrible option ,most folks have lots of these that to Black Reach box set

my preferance is war buggies w/ TL rokkit. Easy to avoid the dread and can't get locked up in combat - AND NEVER take LD checks - way cool as I've seen kooptas break to often bein of small size

Heavy
Cheap but... killer kans w/ rokkits. you've got some shots at range, good chance of killing if in combat, about the same points, and well the most important thing is you didn't commit 30 boys to killing on unit.

SlimPickens wrote:
Charging or not it is all the same against Ironclads- they have defensive grenade launchers. They also have I4, and 3 base attacks with DCCW, so unless you have 3 strong kan mobs you probably wont even get to hit him back. I'd go with another option instead. Kans and warbosses are fodder to ironclad dreads.

The important thing is to deny the Ironclad the charge. If the Ironclad is denied the charge, he only gets 3 attacks. On average, 2 will hit, and you can probably bet on 2 Kanz being nullified for close combat (Ironclad player needs to roll a 2+ to destroy the DCCW, any result of 3+ will destroy it). Then the Kan attacks back and tears off a CCW, Immobilizes, or Destroys. No, it's not ideal, but the nature of his army almost forces his Ironclads to be Kan hunters, and the Kans should be able to weaken the 'Clads enough for Power Klaws to mop up.

DebonaireToast wrote:I managed to get in another game after that one versus a fairly armor-heavy Chaos marines list, and tabled them.

So, thanks for the ideas everybody!

Ork players really should be banned from bragging about tabling their opponents. It's the norm with them, not the exception.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Did you use boarding planks after all?

Yeah, although I didn't get to use them on the dreads , I used them to take care of a predator, a couple speeders, and a rhino. Worked pretty well as I didn't have to worry so much about boys biting it from the "Explodes" result.

Razerous wrote:Do you know why he decided to downgrade the ironclads or was it purely a points issue?

Points I imagine. He altered the build a good bit actually.
IIRC he added in Telion, an extra land speeder, dropped the ironclads to regular dreads and just took three instead of four, and took three predators (autocannon/heavy bolters).

It ended up being a ridiculously close game with some crazy moments - my favorite one being when a trukk fired its big shoota at his Master of the Forge - actually hit him twice, both shots wounded - and he rolled for his armor saves - on the first turn.

willydstyle wrote:Ork players really should be banned from bragging about tabling their opponents. It's the norm with them, not the exception.

Then I must be terrible at this game as its pretty rare for me.

Seriously though, I've only just gotten back into 40k fairly recently after a looong break (stopped playing a little bit after 3rd ed came out,)so I'm still kind of learning the ropes.

Sorry if it came off as "bragging," I meant it more as a "Thanks, that worked!" kind of statement rather than "WOOT! I AM THE BESTE!"

I once was playing a game against orks... An empty trukk with a big shoota destroyed a rhino, Baal predator and a squad of Marines broke off the table after the trukk shot them. It was amazing.

G