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JD21290 does have valid ideas (although they may have been expressed a little clumisly.

Racism/positive discrimination etc. has gone way too far and many people who 'play the race card' do so becuase our dumbass government allows it.

I've come across many instances in the last year within my job.

1)an (asian) lad was summond to a meeting to find out about some trouble caused at a party in halls of residence. He accused the instituion of being racist and only called him for a meeting because of his skin colour (other people invovled were not asked for a meeting). he was then carefully explained to that he was asked to attend a meeting as the others involved all lived in halls and were dealt with on the dy of the event, but as this lad was a non-resident he wasn't easy to get hold of hence the meeting. he still acussed of racism.

Same with someone being removed from the course. They were unfit to practise but acussed the place of racism even though there was plenty of evidence to the actual reason for removal.

When training our student members (racism comes up all the time) the question is often raised that should the BNP be banned from speaking on site, as they are offensive to the LGBT, disabled etc. groups. As a trainer I also point out the other side of the argument, why ban one why not ban all political groups. The response back is usually aong the lines of the others don't offend me, to which I point out that recent governments have increased tuition fees by 200% with them trying to raise them again in the next couple of years by another 200%+ (from £1000 to £7-£10K!) POinting out that this affects not just certain student groups but all the room tends to go a little quiet, yet the conversation always heads back to BNP - students simply feel uneasy to speak against 'major' parties for some reason.

And positive racsim is also present but is actually 'legal'. Although the instituion is not allowed to offer a 'coloured/black' person a space that a 'white' person is more qualified for, they do and are allowed to target ethnic groups in particular with marketing materials. To me that is just as bad, it's just legal to do that, and as far a equal opportunities go....that's a whole other debate.

The BNP do have some very good points (to clarify I'm not and never would be a supporter!) but express them badly with many bad points. I know of a chap who votes BNP, despite the fact that if they got into power he would be one of the first people to be banned from entering the country. When we ask him why he says he thinks that the party is the best for the country. He's not racist, he's black and does come from a very dangerous country himself, and recognises that in essence britain is not a multiculteral country yet we try to be. It's good to live with other cultures but if they come to our country then they should be prepared to live our way of life. I'm not saying drop their own culture or belifs etc, but should fit into our schools etc. Yes we should welcome and ensure they are included that's only human, but when it goes as far as not being allowed to wear a cross, or having muslim schools who last week among other things have banned monopoly because it's too different from their culture it's going a bit too far. When I was at school we were encourage to play it as it helped develop maths skills, and were also encouraged to where our religious symbols as it promoted understanding. What is the world coming to?

A pedantic point here, but I think a valid one - there isn't a "rise" of anything going on. The bigotry and lumpen stupidity on which the likes of the BNP feed is not a new or even a growing phenomenon, it's just the same old default setting for much of the population. I grew up in a foul place where these attitudes are commonplace, and indeed seen as a virtue. If anyone should challenge these attitudes they are seen as suspicious, untrustworthy, even foolish. They come under the heading of “common sense”, a phrase I detest to this day – everyone knows they aren’t like us, everyone knows they are lazy/dirty/criminal/etc. It was a regular cause of grim humour to see the indigenous vermin gathered outside the local shop, generally looking to hurt anyone or anything that crossed their line of sight and all the while complaining about how they had no opportunities in life and everything was given to “them”. Apparently it never crossed their minds that they were doing this outside a grocery shop that was derelict until an Asian family bought it, and open for business about 15 hours a day; and the reason that same family bought a couple more shops in the area was, obviously, because of all the special perks “they” are given, and not because they work bloody hard and invest in their own future, bringing their children up to do the same, while the “local” kids are sat outside throwing bottles at passing cars (and their parents are in the pub complaining about how the country is going to the dogs).

The point being that the likes of the BNP and their predecessors don’t need to create these attitudes, or even wait for a “rise” in them. They are out there just waiting to be tapped by those with the will to do so. This is a horrible fact, but it is a fact. And when people turn to these parties, they generally seem to do so with a clear conscience. They honestly perceive themselves as oppressed in some way, discriminated against (in spite of all the evidence), and they seek redress. If a strong man comes along to offer them answers which not only address their concerns but flatter and glorify them in the process, then they will feel quite justified in supporting him. As Primo Levi warned, “A would-be tyrant is waiting in the wings, with beautiful words on his lips.” Even more depressing, is the line from “Hannah and her Sisters” – “…puzzled intellectuals declaring their mystification over the systematic murder of millions. The reason they can never answer the question 'How could it possibly happen?' is that it's the wrong question. Given what people are, the question is 'Why doesn't it happen more often?' ”

covenant84 wrote:JD21290 does have valid ideas (although they may have been expressed a little clumisly.

Racism/positive discrimination etc. has gone way too far and many people who 'play the race card' do so becuase our dumbass government allows it.

I've come across many instances in the last year within my job.

1)an (asian) lad was summond to a meeting to find out about some trouble caused at a party in halls of residence. He accused the instituion of being racist and only called him for a meeting because of his skin colour (other people invovled were not asked for a meeting). he was then carefully explained to that he was asked to attend a meeting as the others involved all lived in halls and were dealt with on the dy of the event, but as this lad was a non-resident he wasn't easy to get hold of hence the meeting. he still acussed of racism.

Same with someone being removed from the course. They were unfit to practise but acussed the place of racism even though there was plenty of evidence to the actual reason for removal.

This means nothing. He was simply a fool trying to play the race card. Had he succeeded then your point might be valid. I'm willing to bet he didn't though.

covenant84 wrote:When training our student members (racism comes up all the time) the question is often raised that should the BNP be banned from speaking on site, as they are offensive to the LGBT, disabled etc. groups. As a trainer I also point out the other side of the argument, why ban one why not ban all political groups. The response back is usually aong the lines of the others don't offend me, to which I point out that recent governments have increased tuition fees by 200% with them trying to raise them again in the next couple of years by another 200%+ (from £1000 to £7-£10K!) POinting out that this affects not just certain student groups but all the room tends to go a little quiet, yet the conversation always heads back to BNP - students simply feel uneasy to speak against 'major' parties for some reason.

Ok I do agree with this to an extent. I would certainly never call for the BNP to banned. However there is no doubt in my mind that the BNP's arguments are very much classifiable as hate speech and on that basis an institution has the right to deny them a platform on their turf. There is a world of difference between " I disagree with what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" and "Hello Mr Fascist have a Megaphone and Soapbox on me".

covenant84 wrote:Yes we should welcome and ensure they are included that's only human, but when it goes as far as not being allowed to wear a cross, or having Muslim schools who last week among other things have banned monopoly because it's too different from their culture it's going a bit too far. When I was at school we were encourage to play it as it helped develop maths skills, and were also encouraged to where our religious symbols as it promoted understanding. What is the world coming to?

Hmm no offense but I'd take any "Its PC gone mad" story with a pinch of salt if I where you. Most of these stories are very on sided, with circumstances taken out of context and drummed up to create resentment. A bit like the farcical banning Christmas stories that are trotted out year after year by the Daily Mail. All total Tosh. If this Muslim schools banning monopoly story is literally true I'll eat my hat.

Context is amazing. Everytime I see this thread I think "yea I can't stand French banks either, but I never thought they were that bad." Open the thread and lo and behold we're talking about something completely different...

Sexiest hero: Britain is a very tolerant, racially diverse and well intergrated country. Don't let this tiny band of morons cloud your judgement of this country. They tend to only exist in sinkhole council estates (equivilant to the projects), and I doubt you'd want to spend to much time there anyway.

I should qualify all I write by stating from the off that I'm a wooly liberal, I read the Guardian and everything, so if that affects what you think of my opinion, then so be it.

Immigration is NOT A PROBLEM in Britain. As people have said before, there are 4.1m immigrants in Britain, and 5.6m Britons living abroad, and not all the people who come to Britain are unskilled manual labourers, look at the amount of doctors we have imported from abroad, immigration benefits Britain. It also makes it an exciting place to live, and makes London especially the vibrant mix of cultures it is today. I bloody love it. As for the 'preserving British culture' argument, that's just crap. Britain's culture has always evolved and changed with new people coming to our shores, and it's not like our history will be forgotten. It's filled with far too many terrible, and wonderful deeds for that.

Britain isn't broken. PC hasn't gone mad. The sky isn't falling in. People have said the same ill-informed gak for generations, we need to be the one to finally rise above this and see it for the loathsome, brainless, reactionary drivel it is.

BTW, Covenant84, you really need to have words with your mate, the BNP's prime aim is for an all white Britain, seems a bit like a turkey voting for Christmas, and anyway, these thugs need to lose every vote they get.

Oh, about the banning of Cruciform Jewelry in school and the workplace.

My Auntie, despite being in her early 50's, is STILL a Trolley Dolly with British Airways. And guess what, no member of staff is allowed to wear jewelry beyond wedding rings. So that daft old mare who claimed she was asked to remove her cross and cried to the Papers was talking out of her arse.

Same in schools. I worked in a school. No Pupil was allowed to wear jewelry, regardless. Again, it just takes a couple of moron parents on the make to call the Scum and sell the story as a case of 'Pc Gone Mad In a Handcart on the way to hell, you couldn't make it up'.

Amazing. They seem to think that they'll rise out of the lower classes if they somehow get rid of immigrants...

Kilkrazy wrote:I agree with what you are saying.

My viewpoint as a moderator is that illustrating the argument with close relatives of board members is likely to cause a breach of the peace. I know it was JD who brought his grandmother into the topic, but even so.

Everyone knows someone who says, "I'm not a racists, but..." and those kind of anecdotes can be used to illustrate points without the risk of angering a board member.

Fair enough, I'll let it go.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Amazing. They seem to think that they'll rise out of the lower classes if they somehow get rid of immigrants...

Lumpenproletariat

The thing about "positive racism" and the idea the undeserving minorities are taking jobs from more qualified whites is a bit of an exaggeration and also completely misses the reality of the situation. The argument against it is that it is unfair and that hiring should be based on merit but I'll let you in on the secret: it's almost never been merit based. It's always been who you know. It's the reason why George Bush got into Yale with about a C average in High School when A students got turned away.

Ahtman wrote:The thing about "positive racism" and the idea the undeserving minorities are taking jobs from more qualified whites is a bit of an exaggeration and also completely misses the reality of the situation. The argument against it is that it is unfair and that hiring should be based on merit but I'll let you in on the secret: it's almost never been merit based. It's always been who you know. It's the reason why George Bush got into Yale with about a C average in High School when A students got turned away.

For some reason I don't think the jobs the immigrants are taking are the kind of jobs where its important "who you know".

Probably one of the ones they didn't eat.

This doesn't smack of racism so much as it does simple idiocy.

http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/

Isn't Microsoft getting into heat for announcing layoffs while requesting increased H1B visas? I seem to recollect that burbled up recently.

Microsoft recently announced a plan to lay off about 8,000 staff.

I don't know anything about their recruitment policy.

ShumaGorath wrote:For some reason I don't think the jobs the immigrants are taking are the kind of jobs where its important "who you know".

I have no doubt. I wasn't talking about the illegal immigrant job part of the conversation; in fact I didn't mention illegal immigrants at all. That is one part of this discussion and one my of which my point was not addressing, as others have already addressed it.

one of the problems in the current job market is that there are plenty of people, but sometimes not enough with the right skills. If you can't find a person with a certain skill set, but can import one, what exactly is a company to do?

I thin the idea that there is a limited pool of jobs that will run out is wrong. If more people are working, the economy does well and more businesses open up meaning more jobs

Precisely.

And I love it when the Daily slow, Nazi and Menace all run headlines claiming 'ALL NEW JOBS WENT TO IMMYGRUNTS!'

Utter utter crap, lets face it. Where did they get the information from? My mate is about to start doing his LARPing weapon commercially (got backing and everything, just needs to prove he can fulfil orders) so thats at least one job that hasn't gone to a foreigner.....and I worked for a Whisky Company, who needed an additional worker, so thats another job that didn't go to a foreigner....

And the absolute worst thing is when they gibber on about Gordon Brown being unelected, and claim a Scotsman shouldn't be heading Westminster. WHy not? Scotland was run from Westminster for decade after decade, and John Major wasn't elected for his first term?

Polonius wrote:one of the problems in the current job market is that there are plenty of people, but sometimes not enough with the right skills. If you can't find a person with a certain skill set, but can import one, what exactly is a company to do?

Retrain one of the several thousand you are about to let go.

Frazzled wrote:

Polonius wrote:one of the problems in the current job market is that there are plenty of people, but sometimes not enough with the right skills. If you can't find a person with a certain skill set, but can import one, what exactly is a company to do?

Retrain one of the several thousand you are about to let go.

Only if it's cheaper than bringing in foreign talent. I think that the government should be re-training those workers, which is what government is better at doing, leaving the business to do what it's best at: making money.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Oh, about the banning of Cruciform Jewelry in school and the workplace.

My Auntie, despite being in her early 50's, is STILL a Trolley Dolly with British Airways. And guess what, no member of staff is allowed to wear jewelry beyond wedding rings. So that daft old mare who claimed she was asked to remove her cross and cried to the Papers was talking out of her arse.

Same in schools. I worked in a school. No Pupil was allowed to wear jewelry, regardless. Again, it just takes a couple of moron parents on the make to call the Scum and sell the story as a case of 'Pc Gone Mad In a Handcart on the way to hell, you couldn't make it up'.

That story really really wound me up. The policy on jewelery was clear and had naff all to do with religion. It could have been any kind of pendant and the same rule would apply. But as soon as the Daily Fail saw a chance to prey on middle England's persecution complex they leaped at the chance. It was a gross misrepresentation of the facts and outright shoddy journalism. I even remember reading a letter in Daily Express a few days later about an Atheist plot to ban anyone (thats right anyone) from waering a cross. What exactly is wrong with these people??!!!

Richard Littlejohn keeps saying "You couldn't make it up", which is ironic because that's precisely what he does. Every sodding week!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Precisely.

And the absolute worst thing is when they gibber on about Gordon Brown being unelected, and claim a Scotsman shouldn't be heading Westminster. WHy not? Scotland was run from Westminster for decade after decade, and John Major wasn't elected for his first term?

Don't get me started on this! It a cheap way of having a crack at the Government. I think about 1/3 of the PM's over the last 100 years have come to office this way. Most of them were Tories. If your going to attack the government at least do so on the grounds of their genuine flaws as opposed to this half arsed crap which only shows your own ignorance of the system.

Oh and anyone on a message board who thinks misspelling a party name or politicians name (Such as Nu-liebore, Nu_laba or Tony Bliar) represents a genuine intelligent argument they should have their hands cut off!

Greebynog wrote:Sexiest hero: Britain is a very tolerant, racially diverse and well intergrated country. Don't let this tiny band of morons cloud your judgement of this country. They tend to only exist in sinkhole council estates (equivilant to the projects), and I doubt you'd want to spend to much time there anyway.

I should qualify all I write by stating from the off that I'm a wooly liberal, I read the Guardian and everything, so if that affects what you think of my opinion, then so be it.

Immigration is NOT A PROBLEM in Britain. As people have said before, there are 4.1m immigrants in Britain, and 5.6m Britons living abroad, and not all the people who come to Britain are unskilled manual labourers, look at the amount of doctors we have imported from abroad, immigration benefits Britain. It also makes it an exciting place to live, and makes London especially the vibrant mix of cultures it is today. I bloody love it. As for the 'preserving British culture' argument, that's just crap. Britain's culture has always evolved and changed with new people coming to our shores, and it's not like our history will be forgotten. It's filled with far too many terrible, and wonderful deeds for that.

Britain isn't broken. PC hasn't gone mad. The sky isn't falling in. People have said the same ill-informed gak for generations, we need to be the one to finally rise above this and see it for the loathsome, brainless, reactionary drivel it is.

BTW, Covenant84, you really need to have words with your mate, the BNP's prime aim is for an all white Britain, seems a bit like a turkey voting for Christmas, and anyway, these thugs need to lose every vote they get.

Oh and here's a good thing to show anyone you know who brings up the subject of PC brigade. Courtesy of that most respected journal of opinion, Viz.

Its the importation of that foreign talent if you've laid off people that is the problem.

There was a time when corporate culture would not permit that for US companies. That has changed. That has changed in my lifetime.

Ironically, this is why guys like me advocate government acting as a safety net for people, not corporations. It allows both groups to do what they're good at. Government is good at taking money and giving it to people, while corporations should focus on buying low, selling high, and making money for their shareholders.

Well I think there's a dispute about whether government is good at that, but thats another thread.

Doesn't this lead to the extreme corporatist vision though Polonius-privatizing profit but socializing the costs? If there were an environmental spill it would be the company's problem to fix. This is another type of spill.

Government also decides who enters and who doesn't-therefore definitely has a role in deciding if letting in that cheap/qualified labor is a good thing or not.

Oh wow all kinds of interesting topics here and viewpoints to explore but no time.

Frazzled wrote:Isn't Microsoft getting into heat for announcing layoffs while requesting increased H1B visas? I seem to recollect that burbled up recently.

Yes. Microsoft says why hire an American software engineer for $70,000 when you can get one from India for $30,000?

Kilkrazy wrote:

sexiest_hero wrote:I always thought If america got too bad I'd move to England I always had the image of it being a really tolerant place.

Mostly it is.

The BNP is a tiny minority partywhich has failed to get more than a few local councillors elected.

However, there is a strand of racism in any country, inflamed by the kind of "Foreigners are coming to steal our jobs and women" headlines in the right wing gutter press. Funnily enough, these are middle class papers more than the traditional working class papers.

...

In a time of economic hardship these kind of pressures will get stronger and racism is likely to increase.

How do you figure Nazism began, then?

Economic Hardship, Unemployment, what began tiny...

sA

Polonius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Polonius wrote:one of the problems in the current job market is that there are plenty of people, but sometimes not enough with the right skills. If you can't find a person with a certain skill set, but can import one, what exactly is a company to do?

Retrain one of the several thousand you are about to let go.

Only if it's cheaper than bringing in foreign talent. I think that the government should be re-training those workers, which is what government is better at doing, leaving the business to do what it's best at: making money.

I actually think companies should put a bit of effort into the economy, instead of expecting everything to be done for them by the govt. or the workers. We get nothing in the UK except "School leavers should be this, or School leavers should be that... We need another government subsidy..."

Get an effing grip, companies. You exist for the benefit of people, not the other way round.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

And the absolute worst thing is when they gibber on about Gordon Brown being unelected, and claim a Scotsman shouldn't be heading Westminster. WHy not? Scotland was run from Westminster for decade after decade, and John Major wasn't elected for his first term?

Nice bit of misrepresentation there. The main complaints in the Daily Mail and Express regarding Gordon Browns Scottishness is how he changes his opinions depending which side of the border he is on. He supported student grants for Scots, paid for through central taxation, but votes against them for English and Welsh students.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Get an effing grip, companies. You exist for the benefit of people, not the other way round.

I wouldn't say that. Companies exist for the benefit of themselves and their shareholders and whilst its right there are regulations in place to protect employees from being treated like total dirt they certainly don't exist for the benefit of the people. Its at best a mutually beneficial relationship exchanging labor for money.

and I speak as someone who has just found out his job is to be offshored! Whilst on a personal level that what has happened is disgraceful I wouldn't presume to claim that the company exist to benefit me.

Frazzled wrote:Well I think there's a dispute about whether government is good at that, but thats another thread.

Doesn't this lead to the extreme corporatist vision though Polonius-privatizing profit but socializing the costs? If there were an environmental spill it would be the company's problem to fix. This is another type of spill.

Government also decides who enters and who doesn't-therefore definitely has a role in deciding if letting in that cheap/qualified labor is a good thing or not.

Oh wow all kinds of interesting topics here and viewpoints to explore but no time.

Environmental spills are negligence. Laying off redundant workers and hiring useful ones is good business. I think that business should do that, and I think you and I have different enough ideas about immigration that we probably won't agree, but having any expectation for corporations outside of what's best for the bottom line isn't just naive, it's asking the board of directors to renege in their fiduciary duties.