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MagickalMemories wrote:Honestly, and I do NOT mean this disrespectfully... I don't get it.
So, you're buying a product with an advertisement on it. Okay. Fine.

Do you get upset because your soda can says "Coca-Cola" across it? Or "Sprite."
What about that "ADIDAS" on your shoes.
Would you expect Ford, Chevy, etc. to remove all indications of who made the car you bought?

The majority of products we buy today are covered in advertisements. This one just happens to advertise the location where it may be purchased, rather than who the maker is.

Also, and this is just IMO, I don't think it ruins the aesthetics of the mat any more than those plastic disks with the black edge ruin the aesthetics of the minis we play the game with.

For those of you who state that you won't buy the mat for *this* reason, I think it's a poor decision. It's a solid product with an excellent history in user reviews, over all.

Just my 2 cents.

Eric

Stupid comparison.

Sorry Magickal, I have to agree with BrookM here and say that this is a stupid comparison.

Battle mats are meant to look good and replicate real terrain in scale. While there is certainly room for a product/brand/manufacturer identifier, they should take an example from those very car makers you mention and make the add a small icon/symbol in the corner, along with a name or website that's transparent.

All the product examples you mention have their logos and brand identifiers small, and integrated into the design of the product.

With this mat, it's akin to buying a car and finding out that the front hood, side panels, roof, trunk lip, and inside dash are emblazoned with the manufacturer's name written in a ugly, large block font.

I'm sold, Zuzzy for me.

Wow, BrookM... thanks for the stellar addition to the conversation. You should follow the example of Vertrucio and actually contribute to the conversation.

@ Vertrucio:

Neiter small, nor integrated:


Small in comparison to the product, but NOT small.


Again, neither small nor integrated.


The examples above are "integrated" in that they are "built into" the product, but one could use that argument for the Sabol mat, too. the advertisement is "built into" it by being included in the graphic.

With this mat, it's akin to buying a car and finding out that the front hood, side panels, roof, trunk lip, and inside dash are emblazoned with the manufacturer's name written in a ugly, large block font.

This is a HUGE stretch. Huge.

That being said, I'm not going to disrespect anyone's points of view. Your opinion is just that... your opinion... and it's NO less valid than my own.
I'm just expressing a differnt point of view, is all.

Eric

No I'm with everyone else Magickal - there's no comparison between brand names and trademark/logos (which is what Coke is - they don't put the name on for fun, Coke is the brand) and a name plastered needlessly and so obviously across something that's designed to look good.

This is an obtrusive and completely necessary (and huge) amount of white text that destroys what is meant to be a terrain piece. I've already given the example of the BattleTech map sheets that have tiny white or black text on one end and a small logo. They are hardly intrusive. This could be 'zone destroying'. A realistic looking battlefield with great terrain and models and then... a four foot SABOL INDUSTRIES BATTLE MAT THINGY spread across one side.

Comparing that to actual logos and trade marks is just plain silly. Your Adidas example is hilarious - people guy Adidas because it's Adidas, not because they want to pay lots of money for a simple track suit. People would buy a Sabol mat because they want a cool looking mat, not because they want to have a Sabol product.

I bought MY Adidas because they were comfortable, fit well, and I knew they'd last. I could give a rats rip WHO made them or how big the logo is.
That part of your point is moot.


That being said... I'm cool with it that you guys disagree.

Eric

P.S. Your second sentence says it's "necessary." I think you mean "unnecessary." Not harassing you. Just trying to help.

MM: sadly, I agree that the haters have a point. None of your examples involve the actual product itself in any degree of it's basic function. THe product of the coke is the drink, not the can. It is the taste and experience of the drink you are buying that can for. Same with the Ford emblem on the front of the SUV. Is the emblem a part of the vehicle? Yeah, it is. However, does that emblem really affect the basic premise, purpose, or operation of that vehicle? I'll bet not. Same thing with the Ford tailgate. Does the letter stamping affect at all the capability of that tailgate to perform it's basic function? feth no.

What's drawing ire here is that the basic function of the mat is to look good while providing a decent surface to play on. It's NOT just a surface, otherwise people could buy something that looked like rubber or colth for a lot less money. It's photo-realistic, which is a MAJOR selling point for the product. And this letter print on it, to some of us, trashes the effect that the mat is attempting to achieve. If all I wanted was a mat to play on, I would have bought a 4x6 sheet of some kind of foam rubber.

It is an aesthetic violation, somehting that I normally don't give a rats ass about. However, since SO much of the intrinsic value of this product is wrapped up in what it looks like, the print works very hard to spoil the value of the entire product. And the suggestion to cut it off is asinine. I actually like the idea of coloring it in with black, or maybe a matching tone or colro to the mat itself.

Also, I think the example you quoted for discount held better than you might think at first glance. The print on the mat covers a much greater proportion of it's product than even the tailgate covers of it's product. Admittedly, that argument has come down merely to a matter of degree; but sometimes that's very important.

This is a HUGE stretch. Huge.

Funny, that's what I thought of your argument.

Are you seriously trying to tell us there's no difference whatsoever between the Coke can, made solely for the purpose of housing your drink until you've consumed it, of which the large, clearly labeled can is actually a benefit since you know WHAT exactly you're grabbing out of the fridge, to the photo-realistic combat mat meant to represent real terrain that is RUINED by the addition of giant, ugly advertisements all along the side which kills said realism, which can't realistically be covered with terrain all across every single time if you want a different experience each time you play?

And about the cars, funny how you went looking for an old tailgate specifically to address your point. I see a lot of trucks around here and while they're mostly older, you'll be hard-pressed to find a newer truck with a tailgate designed like that. Most trucks nowadays, like cars, have small chrome badges as opposed to the huge lettering stamped into the metal like they did 30-40 years ago. And even then, it's not quite the same thing as the combat mat, in some cases people are actually quite proud of those "advertisements". Some people even go as far as buying a giant Chevy bow tie decal with their own money and put it on their windshields, or go for custom paint jobs that feature the logos somewhere, or even freaking covers for your brake lights with the logos integrated into them. And if you're lucky to afford something a little fancier you feel even more proud to be sporting that Ferrari badge on your hood. It's more of a status symbol than a detriment, and they don't really detract from the vehicle at all.

In the case of the combat mat though, it does. The giant, ugly ad ruins the entire purpose of the mat, which is to provide a realistic playing surface. Kinda kills the realism when you've got WWW.SABOLDESIGNS.COM repeated all down the side. Why bother with the photo-realistic image, or in fact the mat at all if you're going to do that? What's wrong with leaving it to the customer to advertise FOR you? How many people when asked are really going to say "Oh, no, I can't tell you where I bought it, I want to be the only one in this store to own such an awesome gaming peripheral, go make your own!"

Comparing that to actual logos and trade marks is just plain silly. Your Adidas example is hilarious - people guy Adidas because it's Adidas, not because they want to pay lots of money for a simple track suit. People would buy a Sabol mat because they want a cool looking mat, not because they want to have a Sabol product.

This is also true, although I've seen some people make a case for higher-priced clothing being of a higher quality and thus better fitting/more comfortable etc., MOST OF THE TIME, people buy from big brands like American Eagle or Abercrombie because of the brand. You don't go into Abercrombie and pay $50 for a plain t-shirt, you want to display that Abercrombie logo so everyone knows exactly where you got it from.

I bought MY Adidas because they were comfortable, fit well, and I knew they'd last. I could give a rats rip WHO made them or how big the logo is.
That part of your point is moot.

No, it isn't. Maybe that's why you bought them, but I can guaran-fething-tee you that's not why EVERYONE does. If the brand was no big deal then why not just buy a track suit from Wal-Mart? I bought one of the most comfortable pair of jeans at Wal-Mart one day and I kinda regret buying them solely for work because now they're destroyed and I can't wear them anywhere else.

That being said... I'm cool with it that you guys disagree.

Oh, stop. You're coming across as a huge [Mod edited for politeness] right now, you know that?

"Oh it's okay, I don't care that you guys disagree, I know I'm right and that's all that matters HURR!" You're not fooling me.

What's drawing ire here is that the basic function of the mat is to look good while providing a decent surface to play on. It's NOT just a surface, otherwise people could buy something that looked like rubber or colth for a lot less money. It's photo-realistic, which is a MAJOR selling point for the product. And this letter print on it, to some of us, trashes the effect that the mat is attempting to achieve. If all I wanted was a mat to play on, I would have bought a 4x6 sheet of some kind of foam rubber.

Exactly, THAT here is the issue, the fact that the advertisement ruins the mat and makes it a waste of money. If they wanted to advertise they could have found a much better way of doing it, that's all.

The print on the mat covers a much greater proportion of it's product than even the tailgate covers of it's product.

Exactly (again), so that would be like the example before where the logo/make isn't just there, it's painted on the entire side of the car and ruining the look of the vehicle. If done right a logo/model doesn't hurt the car at all, and even looks good, but something like that...unless you're driving a pace car it's just an eyesore.

Comparison to a can of coke is bunk. The mat is purchased purely for aesthetic value, the can of coke is not.

A better comparison would be to a framed print with a deviantart watermark. Or paying someone to paint your house, only to discover afterwards that they've painted their company website address at eye level in a clashing colour on every wall. This is a very unintelligent piece of branding.

MagickalMemories wrote:Honestly, and I do NOT mean this disrespectfully... I don't get it.
So, you're buying a product with an advertisement on it. Okay. Fine.

Do you get upset because your soda can says "Coca-Cola" across it? Or "Sprite."
What about that "ADIDAS" on your shoes.
Would you expect Ford, Chevy, etc. to remove all indications of who made the car you bought?

The majority of products we buy today are covered in advertisements. This one just happens to advertise the location where it may be purchased, rather than who the maker is.

Also, and this is just IMO, I don't think it ruins the aesthetics of the mat any more than those plastic disks with the black edge ruin the aesthetics of the minis we play the game with.

For those of you who state that you won't buy the mat for *this* reason, I think it's a poor decision. It's a solid product with an excellent history in user reviews, over all.

Just my 2 cents.

Eric

You are free to your opinion, but that is not even close to a good comaprison.

The models' bases are neccesary for the game, they do not say Games Workshop in big letters on them.

If you bought a painting you liked and it had the artists name written down one side of it to advertise him and not as a part of the work and you did not know to expect this before you bought it, you would most likely be pissed.

I hate branding, advertising and all of that crap, it is too prevelant in our culture as is. The fact that we drown in the gak does not mean we should roll over and accept it as a given. I do not wear clothes with brand names on them in most cases because I do not want to be a walking fething billboard.

And again, the reason I was so mad, is because I felt mislead. The pictures of the Mat DO NOT show the ad, it is missrepresentation. There is one little pic of it that looks like a watermark on the photo.

If anyone else does not mind it then fine, it is otherwise a nice piece of gear, as I have said.

And magikal, your avatar sucks big time man, you should change that. If it is meant to be in protest of the derogatory terms, it is not so clear as to avoid making you look bad.

Eh, I think he's just arguing just for the sake of arguing. If he saw the mat with its ugly block lettering across an entire edge, he would probably agree.

It's already devolved into some hypothetical abstract argument, which is pointless.

Yeah you are right Vertucio, the stupid internet always brings out the ugly side in people. The argument is pointless.

Regardless of how a brand name is integrated into a product, the point is that it shouldn't detract from the product. GW stamps their name on every metal fig-and you could even question why they do this since it get buried in the plastic base, but nobody questions it because it doesn't detract from the finished product.

Mainly because it is out of sight when the product is finished.

As for my stellar addition, sometimes I feel that a wall of text is overkill.

Reecius wrote:And magikal, your avatar sucks big time man, you should change that. If it is meant to be in protest of the derogatory terms, it is not so clear as to avoid making you look bad.

It might more have to do with that slow is considered an "acceptable" word to throw around while the others aren't.

Unless it's an argument for making the other words more acceptable to throw around casually, in which case I'd NO.

MagickalMemories wrote:I bought MY Adidas because they were comfortable, fit well, and I knew they'd last.

You knew the random track suit you bought would last? Why would that be? Because it was made by Adidas? Don't pretend that you are immune to branding, that's just sadly disingenuous.

Like the mat, shame about the lettering, like the zuzzy mat, shame about having to paint them! I'll stick with the 2ftx2ft foam pre-flocked boards I use which I picked up many years ago from a trader at Partizan.... I'll try and dig their name out annd post here with web link!

There is a big conflit between a realistic battlemat concept and the titan sized pointless letters... Its like going to the movies and theres always a border with huge letters with the name of the movie, it just doesnt make sense... its poor taste and unprofessional publicity methods... and gets people feedup and ultimatly annoyed!

These mats are going to be looked at for hours and hours and its their intention to create a imaginary to the players... With these fonts they just trow the mat purpose out of the window.
Sabol exec's that took this decision were out of touch with reality...I Will avoid this mat and advertise to my friends as a faulty product.

Some of the stuff you people are throwing out at me is ridiculous and, frankly, you ought to act a litle better.
We disagree. Cool. I'm fine with that.
Don't get "Warseer" on me for not falling in with the vocal majority of the thread. You don't like it. You said your part. I don't mind it. I said my part.

"Oh it's okay, I don't care that you guys disagree, I know I'm right and that's all that matters HURR!" You're not fooling me.

Funny. Here, *I* thought I was simply expressing my OPINION, as was everyone else. The odd thing about opinions is that they cannot be right OR wrong.
How might I *fool* you with my opinion? There's no "man behind the curtain." No smoke. No mirrors. Just my opinion. At no time did I say you guys were WRONG. If it's how you feel about it, you CAN'T be wrong. I simply stated that I DISAGREE. It's okay. People can do that now days. We're allowed.


"Donkey cave?" Enjoy being reported. Really... Grow up.


Seriously, people... I'm not saying "I'm okay with your side because I'm right and you're wrong." Look around. it's some of the "haters" that are saying that. I'm saying, "Hey. We disagree. That's cool." Unlike SOME in this thread seem to believe, I do NOT think everyone has to agree with the majority or get flamed for it.

I didn't search for an OLD tailgate. I searched Google images for "Ford Gate" and that was one of the FIRST PAGE images. Funny, how you didn't comment that the FIRST Ford image I posted was of the NEWER, SMALLER logo.

MY Avatar sucks, Reecius? Pot meet Kettle. Yours is no work of art. Mine happens to be making a statement.
Here:
http://www.r-word.org/ }edit{<----- Dakka's auto-spell check messes this up. The "are" should be the 18th letter of the alphabet. }/edit{
Thanks for getting it, BrookM. It's good to know that, despite any disagreement, you can still see what should be obvious. : )

Not only am I not arguing "for the sake of arguing," I'm not arguing at all. I'm saying, "I feel (a), you feel (b). Cool."
As for seeing the mat... www.miniaturemarket.com. It's a local St. Louis game store. Been there, done that, played on the mat.

As for Adidas, I buy them because the brand has a good reputation but NOT because they're Adidas, if you understand what I mean by the difference. It's an OLD product, but a perfect example... Back in the 80's and early 90's, "Swatch" watches were the craze. People bought them because of the name. I did NOT, because they were cruddy quality and broke regularly. Nobody I knew that had one owned ot for more than 2 or 3 months before it died.
Had they been good watches, I'd have bought them because of the quality.
I may buy a brand because it's a good brand, but NOt because of the brand *name.*

No, it isn't. Maybe that's why you bought them, but I can guaran-fething-tee you that's not why EVERYONE does

I was highly amused by this. MY comment about it was to contrast the blanket statement someone made... and you're turning my comment about MYSELF into one.

I would like to make one clarification that, apparently, I have not done yet...

I think the lettering on the mat is larger than necessary and should be located closer to the edge for (a) easier covering or (b) easier removal.
MY piont is that I don't think the fact that it ISN'T is that big a deal.

Now... disagree with me all you want. That's cool. I'll be happy to DISCUSS it further. How about trying to stop the mud flinging, though, for those of you who are? There's no need for derision and derogatory commentaries.

Eric

I like slinging mud, hay, its a pass time!

I dislike the lettering, it's a mistake in my opinion on Sabols part because it will harm rather then improve sales.

It's not however a big deal, but I've yet to see anyone actively say they would rather buy it WITH then WITHOUT the lettering, ergo, its likely to harm sales. (there will always be those who don't mind, and those who are obviously apoplectic!)

I'd not buy one.... then again, the wife would kick me if I even suggested it as we have more then enough terrain as it is :-)

The biger deal is the fact its not clear from the advertising. Not sure (and willing to be corrected) but in the UK you have the right to return any item purchased on line within 30 days with no questions asked for a re-fund (with some caveats on DVD's and Software not being opened I believe) to protect the consumer from making an ill informed purchase from poor pictures or descriptions.

On that basis, send the fether back!

Nothing guaranteed to make a supplier "Correct Errors" then lots of returned items or poor sales.... where as bitching on a net forum not particularily known for changing manufactures policies :-)

Coke is printed on the packaging not on the product.

Same should go for this.

Hell supply stickers if you have to.

MM: You can have your opinion, which is inviolate, but you can't then try to explain or defend your opinion as anything other than personal preference without allowing rebuttal. The statement "i don't mind the lettering, it won't bother me" is a pure opinion. The statement "Do you get upset because your soda can says "Coca-Cola" across it? Or "Sprite." " Stops being a personal opinion, and starts advocating your position as opposed to ours.

That advocacy allows people to respond in kind, particularly since your initial post was at least mildly condescending towards those that are opposed to the writing. It's not your opinion that is being argued against, but the evidence you put forward to defend that opinion.

Regardless, the way the lettering was sprung on the consumer was pretty shady. Adding an obvious advertisement to product whose primary goal is to be aesthetically pleasing is a pretty big fail.

100% agree with Poloius, Grizgrin and Navarro. 90% agree with Reecius & Sidstyler. Eric, I really think you’re off base here. Of course, it’s just a terrain mat, so let’s not take disagreement too seriously.

@ Polonius- I'm not in disagreement. Rebuttal doesn't bother me. Making me Public Enemy Number One and overreacting does, though.

Seriously, people... I'm not saying "I'm okay with your side because I'm right and you're wrong." Look around. it's some of the "haters" that are saying that. I'm saying, "Hey. We disagree. That's cool." Unlike SOME in this thread seem to believe, I do NOT think everyone has to agree with the majority or get flamed for it.

Sorry for the language (though "donkey cave" is the sensor, not my words). I don't know why but I was being a bit too confrontational with that post and it was a tad uncalled for.

I wouldn't say I'm a "hater", though, I've got an opinion too and I'm just trying to defend it. I don't think anyone cares if you mind the ad or not, but the comparisons you made to the ad on the mat are just a little weak in our opinion, especially in the case of the Coke can.

Funny, how you didn't comment that the FIRST Ford image I posted was of the NEWER, SMALLER logo.

I kinda did when I went on about badges.

Most trucks nowadays, like cars, have small chrome badges as opposed to the huge lettering stamped into the metal like they did 30-40 years ago. And even then, it's not quite the same thing as the combat mat, in some cases people are actually quite proud of those "advertisements".

And a lot of people have said that a smaller, unobtrusive logo is just fine. If it were a logo in the corner that blended in with the mat it wouldn't have been a big deal. A car, first and foremost, is for getting around, and small Ford/Chevy logos here and there don't really interfere with a car's purpose at all. The Sabol mat's only purpose is to make games look better and it fails hard when you've got this huge, unavoidable advertisement running the length of the thing for no real reason.

No one complains about the Sabol logos on their bags, a bag is for getting your army around, no one really cares. Advertising is just fine when it makes sense, but in this case we just feel that it doesn't.

MY comment about it was to contrast the blanket statement someone made... and you're turning my comment about MYSELF into one.

I don't like to make blanket statements often, but I feel in this case I'm not far off the mark. There are people like you who buy a brand for durability or reliability, but for every guy like you there are at least two more that buy a brand for the brand. A&F in particular like to sell jeans that are pre-ripped and look like they need to be replaced, and I can't think of any reason why someone would actually buy a pair of jeans like that thinking "These things look rugged, I should get a few years out of them!" when they look like they're one more rip away from heading into the garbage.

All I was trying to say is that his point wasn't "moot" like you claimed. Yeah it's a bit foolish to say literally "EVERYONE buys this because of that", but the fact that you personally don't buy brands like that doesn't really mean anything, other than the fact that you shop more sensibly than others.

Hell supply stickers if you have to.

See, that's not a bad idea, worlds better than the one they went with anyway. Lots of guys print stickers like that to advertise (I have some for Mana energy potion). Hell, I even mailed in for a whole bunch of Element stickers a few years ago because I liked them so much.

It's not your opinion that is being argued against, but the evidence you put forward to defend that opinion.

Exactly, though I got a bit carried away admittedly.

MagickalMemories wrote: [quote
MY Avatar sucks, Reecius? Pot meet Kettle. Yours is no work of art. Mine happens to be making a statement.
Here:
http://www.r-word.org/ }edit{<----- Dakka's auto-spell check messes this up. The "are" should be the 18th letter of the alphabet. }/edit{
Thanks for getting it, BrookM. It's good to know that, despite any disagreement, you can still see what should be obvious. : )

Haha, ok, fairplay. Although that mini looks really good in real life, I know I am not the best painter in the world. But your avatar, as I said, is not nearly clear enough to not make you look bad, mine may be aesthetically unpleasing, but it wont offend the world. That is just friendly advice. Do what ever you want though.

And you made yourself public enemy number one! You came in and told us all we were being rediculous for not liking one aspect of the item in question and then made a really poor comparison. Look at your own actions before criticizing others. I understand that you feel attacked now and are trying to defend yourself but just remember, we didn't come out of no where to gang up on you. If you would have expressed your opinion in a less inflamatory way, more people would have listened instead of jumping on your back. Again, just friendly advice.

Dont stress to much guys, its just a battle matt... even if just a pre printed one hehe
BTW The zuzzy one, is dead sexy but the price of these matts are a bit to much.

As for avatars, there was a time someone banned my poor inocent avatar saying it was not proper for a wargaming forum... yes its the same old avatar I made years ago and still use today... so go figure that, its all in the minds of people.

NAVARRO wrote:Dont stress to much guys, its just a battle matt... even if just a pre printed one hehe
BTW The zuzzy one, is dead sexy but the price of these matts are a bit to much.

As for avatars, there was a time someone banned my poor inocent avatar saying it was not proper for a wargaming forum... yes its the same old avatar I made years ago and still use today... so go figure that, its all in the minds of people.

they're both about 50 bucks, that's too much?

Sid - Thanks.

I can't argue any of the opinions you offered there. Though I disagree, they're solid opinions.

Hmm... 'cept the stickers. Thos would probably be a waste of money. I'd be surprised if ANYONE would apply them to the mat... and I can't think of anywhere else to apply them (in a non-graffitti manner ) where they'd matter... except a retailer's windows... but that's a different advertising approach altogether.
Shoot. I don't mind the advertising as is, but even *I* wouldn't add stickers to it for the advertising. LOL

Reecius - I actually looked back at my initial post (though not any others). THAT post doesn't say you're being ridiculous. It isn't "attacking" at all. Honestly, if I HAD said that, I'd edit the post & apologize. That isn't my style.
If I say anything (not defensively) that's attacking, I WILL backtrack and change it. I don't come here to argue, only discuss... even if it's to discuss differences.

Thanks.

Eric

jabbakahut wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:Dont stress to much guys, its just a battle matt... even if just a pre printed one hehe
BTW The zuzzy one, is dead sexy but the price of these matts are a bit to much.

As for avatars, there was a time someone banned my poor inocent avatar saying it was not proper for a wargaming forum... yes its the same old avatar I made years ago and still use today... so go figure that, its all in the minds of people.

they're both about 50 bucks, that's too much?

its $52 and with shipping it bumps it up to $65 for the zuzzy! again awesome mat, but I just cant see spending that much for one. unless there was nothing left to buy for my army. I really would like to have one though.