Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mattlov wrote:Magnetizing is fine. But in order for me to get 8 Feeder Tendril heads, I need 8 boxes of Genestealers. Bug players get SCREWED by it.

Another personal (and off topic) annoyance of my bugs is that they pretty much have to attack ass-first to even get in base to base with anything...

No you don't.. not everyone who plays bugs uses the tendril feeder heads.. So, you post up on a trade forum, or ask your friends. It might take a bit of time, but I bet it's a helluva lot easier to mail bitz back and forth than to buy 8 boxes of stealers...

Trench-Raider wrote:Ok, it's been a couple of days. Time for the correct answer to the WYSIWYG test above!
Clockwise from upper left they are:
-First model Space marine lascannon
-Conversion beamer (I use this model on my master of the forge)
-First model space marine lascannon (yeah I'm suprised too..more on that in a moment)
-IG grenade launcher
-Space marine missle launcher
-Chaos Renegade grenade launcher

Now what seems to have tripped some of you up, and this was not a purposeful attempt at deception on my part, is that GW seems to have changed the decriptions of these a couple of time over the years. I took my descriptions from the 1991 blue catalog. for instance I have seen the third model described as a missle launcher in the past and the last model (as well as the shoulder fired Imperial version that I was unable to find a photo of) was callsified in the first "Chapter Aproved" book as a "heavy grenade launcher" and even included rules for that weapon which apears nowere else.
yes as you can see this adds yet another complication to the WYSIWYG question.

TR

Well, I wasn't far off!

But it goes to illustrate the spirit of WYSIWYG. When using non-standard (current) parts, as long as I know what it is, and that definition is consistent throughout your army, then you are indeed WYSIWYG. Whilst I don't get a preferance for the older models beyond nostalgia, I accept others prefer the older models, and if they want to use them, who am I to complain? Still getting my game in.

And by 'spirit' of WYSIWYG, I interpret that as being less about ambiguous, older weapons, and more about not fielding misleading models unless informing your opponent before hand.

This to me is also a seperate issue to 'counts as' and proxy models. The aforementioned classifications really should be fairly temporary fixes. I tend not to use them, as I'm experienced and carefree enough to either work it out in my head how I'd use them, or not especially care and buy the unit anyways. But likewise, I get not everyone is quite so lacksadaisical (I love that word!) about their purchases, and like to make sure the proposed addition will work for them, whatever their definition of that might be.

Now let me throw something else out into the mix just to play the Devil's advocate here.
While I tend to be as WYSIWYG as possible as I stated above, there is such a thing as a reasonable proxy. Not all proxies are as obvious and "in your face" as say using a Coke bottle as a drop pod. For example the card gamers recognize the use of proxies and will often allow photocopies of the more rare and expensive cards that have been pasted to the fronts of worthless commons. Getting back to GW wargames, in a sense wouldn't the use of non-GW models be a form of proxy? Outside of the more uptight tourny crowd, there are few players who would refuse to play against non-GW models. (although even that is not set in stone...a few years ago I played in a WFB tourny using my 28mm Medieval German army using the Empire rules and I got nothing but positive feeback)

But like I said there is indeed an aceptable level of proxying that most people, even in the competative enviorment, will not mind. Using another personal example I have a large Orc army based for WFB, and although I have lots of metal goblins, I have only a small number of night goblins. When I do want to field a Night goblin unit, i make up the first couple of ranks using the correct figures and fill in the less visable back ranks with normal gobbos. It's extremly obvious what the unit is and no one to date has whinged. Likewise in 40k if you have an odd number of figures in a unit and a few extra points, who has never put in another figure of a similar type as a stand in to flesh a unit out? (that's the first one to get removed as a casualty as well)
These are examples of "acceptable proxies" that only the most anal retentive of WYSIWYG fetishists would have issues with. Either case might be a valid justification to dock your opponent a point or so on the painting score at a tourny, but anything more that this would be a bit out of line in my mind.

Finally, how many of you actually spend the time to pick through your opponent's army just looking for something amiss you can jump up an down howling in outrage "OMGOMGOMGOMG!!!!1!!! THATFIGURE DOASNOTHAVETHEPLASMAPISTOLYOUJUSTSHOTATME!!!1!!GETAREFEREEOVERHERENOW!!!!!!!!!"? Honestly?

TR

if it's not WYSIWYG, then it deserves to be stomped on.. how's that for playing devil's advocate?

I'm pretty strict on WYSIWYG in my new armies. All my dark angels have bolt pistols, for example.

In my older armies, there's a little bit of counts as due to edition changes. I stopped playing my Guard becuase it took too much explaining. My Eldar has a dreadnaught with D_cannon ("wraithlord with brightlance"), an old stubby missile launcher, and I've put all the guardians with non-standard equipment (like plasma guns, power fists, etc) into one big storm guardian unit (and just say the two models with fusion guns have fusion guns, everything else counts as SP/CCW). I wouldn't take the army to a tournament.

My Storm Lords army has lots of RT era minis too, but being marines they're mostly still usable. Noone has a problem with the "fish launchers", but the old (tiny!) heavy bolter caused a problem one time so I retired it and replaced it with a plastic dev. The army isn't tournament ready right now due to the edition change. I just cut the second heavy weapons off the terminators, still need to take the second plasma pistol off the assault marine squad, and bulk out the 6 man las-plas units...

In a tournament environment, I'd be pretty unhappy if WYSIWYG was not exact. Two examples stick out in my memory - a Marine player with non-functional cyclone missile launcher, non-functional plasma pistols here and there, and a not fully painted army. And an Ork player with a really hidden power klaw and kustom mega-blasters in his Lootas which magically became deffguns. It was very grating when he charged my Dreadnaught with an ork mob I thought couldn't hurt it. ("Oh it's not on the model but I paid the points for it and it's on the army list I showed you").

Trench-Raider wrote:When I do want to field a Night goblin unit, i make up the first couple of ranks using the correct figures and fill in the less visable back ranks with normal gobbos.
TR

I'll admit to being something of a WYSIWYG Nazi but, to me, that okay. It's clear at a glance what the unit is, what it's got and how many members there are.

To the Nid player, Something I've seen done is having broods all without biomorphs except for one model at the front with a red-ringed base that had tendrils/fleshhooks/adrenal sacs/whatever (all painted quite bright so that you could see them clearly) and indicated the equipment for the unit. That's okay with me also.

I still use my 2ed Banshees. Yah know the ones with LasPistols...

Can't wait for someone to call a WYSIWYG on me for that one.

I prefer to use WYSIWYG bar two things. First of all when I'm trying new weapons load outs or the like on a unit. I'd prefer to not have to buy, model and paint a unit I may find I dislike intensely. So when testing out something like that I will do count as.

Secondly I sometimes remove weapons from a vehicle. While my Space Marine stuff is all switchable my Guard Tanks do all have side weaponry which I sometimes don't want. Mostly because I got two of them from someone who'd never heard about not stick every weapon in the box on one vehicle...

My Crisis Suits can each switch there weapons around, which is damned useful too.

I don't mind an opponent doing something like having one thing count as another, except for one guy who kept changing which unit special weapons were in. That was irksome.

It all depends really.

Weapons and "harder" choices irk me if they aren't represented, but I generally don't mind. I'm fairly literal with my own standards of WYSIWYG but I don't mind the occasionally swap here and there.

Softer choices, I'm all for ignoring. I can't even imagine someone saying "I don't see a melta-bomb on your Sgt, I don't think he can use it".

Stuff like that is just crazy. I'd prefer to just say it's under his cloak, in the backpack whatever. I take into account what actually comes with kits, and it can be a little ridiculous to ask to see EVERY single minute upgrade on a horde of 120 nids. They put the money into the stuff, that's all that matters to me.

Trench-Raider wrote:To the Nid player, Something I've seen done is having broods all without biomorphs except for one model at the front with a red-ringed base that had tendrils/fleshhooks/adrenal sacs/whatever (all painted quite bright so that you could see them clearly) and indicated the equipment for the unit. That's okay with me also.

I think I will probably start doing that. Good idea.

Anyone know where I can get a copy of the WYSIWYG rules? I ask because I am about to start HEAVILY converting an IG army, and I want to make sure it is 100% kosher.

In general, the WYSIWYG rules are pretty simple:

What You See Is What You Get

1. Models are of the correct type (IG soldiers for IG soldiers)
2. Models are armed properly (Lasgun troopers carry Lasguns, ML troopers carry MLs, etc)
3. Special options are accurately-represnted (Power Fists etc. are clearly modeled and visible)

That's basically about it. Make it easy to tell who's who and what's what to prevent confusion.

I ask because I was interested in modeling my Chimera's with the turret in the back half, and the fire ports up near the front. I just wondered if conversions like this would be legal.

I don't think anybody would care too much about that.
- it's still a Chimera chassis
- the weapons are correct
- the options are correct

Go for it!

I think where it gets slowed is stuff like grenades and meltabombs. Meltabombs being the hardest damn thing, especially for guard, to display for a whole squad.

IMO, Demo Charges and even Meltabombs should be represented, but GW notes that grenades are optional.

I think as long as it's agreed upon by both players before starting what's what then it's okay. I try to keep my Marines / IG / SoB as WYSIWYG but things like my metal Sternguards I just have to say "they're carrying combi-plasmas, all of them." I'm not buying a third pack of Sternguard just to swap out the melta and plasma on two Marines.

In my friendly games I'll let someone get away with something being other than whats modelled or in some cases, not glued on for the purposes of play testing something new or if they simply haven't had time.

But wouldn't accept it if they had lots of these counts As items in a single match or if after many weeks they still hadn't modelled it. But on the whole I don't get this problem but I have already thought about it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, Demo Charges and even Meltabombs should be represented, but GW notes that grenades are optional.

I agree when it comes to demo charges, I bought the metal catachan models and converted them to cadian. But with metla bombs, even when you get them with a squad you don't get nearly enough to have them represented on each squad member.

I've broken up my Mortar teams and I'm using my Mortar loaders as the DemoPack guys. They are carryin the large mortar round...just seemed to fit.

When I feel the need to be as WYSIWYG as possible I play my Grey Knights. Having no options makes it pretty easy that way...

The thing with Meltabombs is that at least part of the unit should be so-equipped so that your opponent can see that the unit has Meltabombs.

I play with painted pieces. I've used magnets to make a lot of weapons swappable for HW units and Special Weapons troops, as well as sponsons and turret weapons on tanks. I like to be able to keep up with what I've got on the tank instead of by memory. When I fire the HK missile, I pluck the launcher off so I know it's gone. If weapons are destroyed, I'm able to pluck them off so I know they're gone.

One of my buddies played with guys so anal, they insisted he had meltabombs on his figures if he bought them. I don't bother modelling on grenades and small stuff. It's hard to tell a blinged up bolter from a mastercrafted bolter..