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JohnHwangDD wrote:
Scout Sentinels are cheap, and as basic as they come, which is their lot in 40k. War Walkers are the twin-Heavy specialists, while Killa Kans are the light CC variant, and Penitent Engines fill the pure CC role. All well-differentiated. Besides, as you note, that 2nd Heavy generally ought to be a HK missile.

"Light" Heavy is what IG generally use their Fast for, except when you look at the Scout Sentinel. The Scout Sentinel is the only "pure" Fast option here, by dint of its low cost and focus on sneaking. Even with Squadrons, IG Heavy slots are contested in a way that Fast are not.

5E in general overvalues Negates Cover quite a bit. Look at the HellHammer compared to the Baneblade - it extends to Apoc Superheavies, too.

For 150 pts, I get 3 Lascannon shots per turn, rather than 1 per turn, or 3 on a single, final turn. That's really not so terrible, especially with Scout.

I get why sentinels are the way they are, and I think I portrayed them fairly and objectively, but it's very hard to support a unit that is clearly inferior to another in the same codex. I think you're undervaluing Valkyries in a way that makes you over value the sentinels, and they are a unit that benefits the most from not being squadded up due to their transport capacity. Three single Valks enables three veteran squads to claim three objectives, destroy three enemy tanks, and deploy in three different ways.

I agree that 5th edition highly values Negating cover, but it's simply asinine to price a heavy flamer on a slow vehicle higher than a multilaser.

As for comparing the shots for sentinels to the Vendetta, AV12 is a ton harder to shake than AV10, and with open topped plus the squadron rules, they are fragile as anything. And no, it's not terrible, but you're leaving out the fact that the vendetta is 20pts cheaper, has twin linked weapons, and that lascannons really aren't super great to begin with.

AV12 is worth 10 pts over AV10, and Extra Armor and closed-top are each worth 5 pts, so yeah, it's probably worth 20 pts for the stats. Losing the mobility rules is bad, so the Armored Sentinel is relatively overpriced. It should be 45 pts base, not 55.

The Plasma Cannon is a cool option that will look great on my shelf, so don't knock it!

The Executioner is a major points and slot investment that competes with the best of what IG have - Heavy pie-throwers. The Sentinels don't have that same problem.

Well the armor upgrade and everything is really only worth anything if what it's protecting is worth something, which I argue is the sticking point.

And plasma cannon Armoured Sentinels are a major points and slot investment that compete with Fast Skimmer transports.

With Squadrons, they don't have to compete as strongly as if they were still singles:
- 1-3 Sentinels
- 1-3 Hellhounds
- 1-3 Valkyries / Vendettas

I look at all of the Hellhounds as "Cruiser Tanks", complementary medium-weight support to the true Heavies.

that's fine, but Valks and vendies are still much, much better as singles, and you can call Hellhounds whatever you want, but they suck for their points. I have no problem having low expectations of a unit, but I have a problem with paying 130pts and having low expectations. That's two AC/GL squads, or almost a Leman Russ or two Hydras or Griffons.

First off, the Valkyrie is almost identical to a Wave Serpent in broad function, and fairly-costed. The Wave Serpent, like all other pre-5E Transports is grossly overpriced by roughly 50%. Being high-function (and high-cost) Transports, the Wave Serpent and Tau Devilfish are now the most grossly-overpriced vehicles in 40k. They are as punitively-priced as the Chimera used to be, so any fair pricing comparison naturally looks like a virtual bargain.

The Waveserpent was one of the few transports to see regular play in 4th edition, and while it's overcosted, it's still a workhorse that competes at a high level. The Valkyrie is arguably superior, losing the energy shield but getting the free spirit stone, as well as Scout. Even compared to the poor chimera, the valk holds it's own. Higher side armor eliminates the biggest weakness of the Chimera, it has the same main gun, is faster, can scout and outflank, and in general transport quite better.

This isn't a bad gunship, but it is limited by the Defensive Weapon rule, so you can trade a good round of shooting for a near-certain shoot-down the next turn. Otherwise, you're paying 130 pts for a Fast twin Lascannon.

Well, I know you seem to have a grudge against the new Fliers, but I mentioned the firing roles and the fragility in my analysis, and I think that the Vendetta stacks up really well with the Eldar Fire Prism which is often used to backstop top notch Eldar armies. I pay 145 for twin bright lances on my waveserpents, and I think that's a fine unit, so the vendetta really is a good deal.

Look, the Valk and the Vendetta aren't going to set the world on fire, and they're not going to turn the IG into the monsters of 40k, but they are very, very good units that simply do not cost a lot of points. When Space Marine Players take three Predators at 85pts each, they know what they're getting, and it's worth the points spent. I feel the same way here. 600pts buys me 30 vets, 9 meltas, and three Valks. They are scoring units that can blow up tanks, snipe and side armor, outflank, deep strike, and in general cause havoc. With no serious competition for those three Fast Attack slots, and plenty of troops choices available, I think that that a single veteran air cav platoon will merge nicely with a bunch of tanks, a few tanks and some infantry, a mechanize force, or really any other guard army.

Good FA review. I still feel that building a list around av 12 is a little shaky. Lootas, twin dev or bard strangler/VC Fexs, and IG flak tanks will rip them asunder.add in the fact that they can't really hide in cover and can be taken down by a lucky plasma gun shot. I'd put them in the competitive slot at best. Simply because unless you max out on both you und up with wasted units when faced with a troop horde or tank army. I prefer LRBT that are sturdier, can be in cover, and can handle troops and tanks.

That said I think you did a good job, just the score is a little high, IMHO. Keep up the good work.

Nice review! I look forward to seeing the Heavy support section since I think this is the most controversial with the new template rules.

I have to say though I think for 45pts, the priest is a better counter charge unit (when added to another power fist(s) ) than the rough riders. Rough riders really only kill 3 marines out of 10 attacks.

Also I believe ogryns are on par with terminators. In the head to head match it is a close fight, but my main point for them is this: IG have enough shooting to deal with single high armoured threats such as terminators or monsterous creatures, but ogryns bring the pain to any infantry squad, and even can stand up to gene stealers. Ogryns should be looked as more of the inverse to terminators, meant to be a sure thing against infantry in these new days of unpredictable template weapons.

Also Commissar Yarrick makes ogryns re-roll to hit which makes this an interesting apocalypse unit

Also I would have to say that special weapon squads are awful since they do what PCS or PCS can do, but not as good and at a higher price and at a high price arguing the extra members and balistic skill than that of a vet squad.

@Polonius: I don't have a grudge against the Valk or Vendetta. I think they're fairly-priced, but not really uber awesome.

The main difference in our POVs is that you're mostly happy with the book, and I'm mostly disappointed.

Tao wrote:Also I believe ogryns are on par with terminators. In the head to head match it is a close fight, but my main point for them is this: IG have enough shooting to deal with single high armoured threats such as terminators or monsterous creatures, but ogryns bring the pain to any infantry squad, and even can stand up to gene stealers. Ogryns should be looked as more of the inverse to terminators, meant to be a sure thing against infantry in these new days of unpredictable template weapons.

Also Commissar Yarrick makes ogryns re-roll to hit which makes this an interesting apocalypse unit

Given Yarrick's price, I'd rather take more Ogryns into the squad, or buy those Ogryns an Arvus Lighter (I wish there was a fast transport that can carry more than 6 models). Adding an IC to an Ogryn squad isn't that much of a liability, since inside a squad of T5 W3 guys is about the safest place an IC can be in an IG army.

sexiest_hero wrote:Good FA review. I still feel that building a list around av 12 is a little shaky. Lootas, twin dev or bard strangler/VC Fexs, and IG flak tanks will rip them asunder.add in the fact that they can't really hide in cover and can be taken down by a lucky plasma gun shot. I'd put them in the competitive slot at best. Simply because unless you max out on both you und up with wasted units when faced with a troop horde or tank army. I prefer LRBT that are sturdier, can be in cover, and can handle troops and tanks.

That said I think you did a good job, just the score is a little high, IMHO. Keep up the good work.

Well, it's very possible that I'm overvaluing the Valkyrie, but I would point out that if you're facing an army with tons of S7 shooting, simply outflank with the damn thing! It's a non-dedicated transport, so if you're facing horde orks, leave the veterans behind and take a four flamer PCS to deal with the lootas. There aren't very many armies that can reliably deal with AV12, and since you should always take more armor if you take any, shooting at your valks isn't shooting against your chimeras or Russes.

One of the reasons the unit is highly competitive is because in a well built list, run by a good player, the Valkyrie has the flexibilty and the capability of really excelling, and like I've said a few times, it's very, very cheap.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Polonius: I don't have a grudge against the Valk or Vendetta. I think they're fairly-priced, but not really uber awesome.

The main difference in our POVs is that you're mostly happy with the book, and I'm mostly disappointed.

Well, if you think the Vendetta is fairly priced, than I'd like to see what you consider an undercosted unit. I know you play mostly Apocolypse, and I've tried to cover that, but in an 1850 tournament setting the vendetta is a sexy buy.

Large parts of the book make me mad, but why wouldn't I be happy? It's a marked improvement, the IG are competitive in tournaments and gained all kinds of fun new toys for casual play, the Valkyrie model is awesome and in plastic, and while all infantry gunline isn't optimal, it's still a viable option. Could the codex have been dramatically better with very little change? Of course. Ogyrn could drop to 35pts (and/or gain rending), Storms are worth 12pts at most, the Lord commissar should have been 50pts and not take an HQ slot, IG plasma guns are not worth 15pts in the hands of BS3 models, Nearly every special character could use a 25% price cut, and Nork Dedogg is almost insulting. But that's not the point of this review, which is to analyze what's there, not to wish for what isn't.

Tao wrote:Nice review! I look forward to seeing the Heavy support section since I think this is the most controversial with the new template rules.

I have to say though I think for 45pts, the priest is a better counter charge unit (when added to another power fist(s) ) than the rough riders. Rough riders really only kill 3 marines out of 10 attacks.

I'm not sure why you put an "only in there". Killing 3 marines with a 55 unit in Close combat is really, really good. Rough Riders can also pick their fights to an extent that nothing else in the IG book can do to their cavalry movement. The priest needs a squad to roll with, as at T3, W1 and a 4++ he's going to die if he charges nearly anything solo. When added to, say, a PCS with fist he becomes better, but Is it worth 45pts to reroll 3 or even 6 powerfist attacks? Maybe, maybe not, but the only units stuff like Rough Riders and Fisty PCS should be charging are under strength anyway. Anything bigger, send in a sacrificial squad.

Also I believe ogryns are on par with terminators. In the head to head match it is a close fight, but my main point for them is this: IG have enough shooting to deal with single high armoured threats such as terminators or monsterous creatures, but ogryns bring the pain to any infantry squad, and even can stand up to gene stealers. Ogryns should be looked as more of the inverse to terminators, meant to be a sure thing against infantry in these new days of unpredictable template weapons.

Ogryn do reasoanbly well against non-terminator, non-dedicated assault squads, if they get the charge. I have no problem with that statement, I just think that a 200pt unit shouldn't have so many reservations about what it's good against. Ogryn bog down against nearly anything actually good (assault terminators, berzerkers, plague marines, death company, nobs or any variety) and will often lose the charge against bikes, Jump infantry, and anything in a landraider or battlewagon. Ogryn weren't really bad in the old book, they simply only excelled in a very narrow set of circumstances. That set has widened, but not enough for the unit to really qualify as a top notch counter assault unit.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

ShadowRocket wrote:Just noticed that if you use the DH codex you can get the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers for 10pts each, and you could use the new Hellgun rules with them, giving you the AP3 for relatively cheap, and it could be a good way to give backup to all the veteran squads that are being fielded.

army.

I dont believe you can do that... As they are two separate armies. Would be nice though if you could.

According to the DH Codex you can induct Entries from the codex into an IG, SM, or SoB army. Given the Troop limit is 0-2 (I believe) so at best you get 2 Imperial Stormtrooper squads with the old hellguns (and if you want rhinos).
All things considered, if you have the spare spots, you can do it and not feel terrible, but I'd rather go with an IG veteran squad. Overall cheaper to have a vet squad +3 meltaguns and Chimera in comparison to stormtrooper sqd +3 meltaguns /Rhino/Chimera.

Just thought it interesting was all.

Back on Topic:
Lookin forward to more! I agree on the sentinel review for the most part. I can see me using the Scout sentinels for a quick Outflank of anti-armor goodness, but I doubt I'll use the Plasma Cannon variation of the AV12 Sentinels.
And I test ran a heavy weapon squad, those new rules absolutely wreck them. Not worth taking IMO

I think armored sentinels could have a place in the Guard army as a tarpit unit much like Dreadnoughts are used for other armies: they don't have as much firepower/point as other units, but AV12 is something that some units simply can't deal with in CC.

willydstyle wrote:I think armored sentinels could have a place in the Guard army as a tarpit unit much like Dreadnoughts are used for other armies: they don't have as much firepower/point as other units, but AV12 is something that some units simply can't deal with in CC.

This is true, but they lack the power weapon and number of attacks to really do as much damage/tarpitting as a dreadnought can. My main point being, yes they can tarpit, but if they cant cause the unit they tie up with to lose a few models and force a leadership test to get them to run, you're paying a lot of points for firepower, and not getting it.

But for every unit you can tie up otherwise, your army has one less target to focus on.

I'm not saying that they're super, and you're probably correct in your assumption that the valks and vendettas are more points-efficient, and a better use of a FA slot, but I see the armored sentinels as something that could be of great use to a less-mobile Guard army.

great review looking forward to heavy suport.

Add in a special rule that allows an officer inside to use orders measuring from the Chimera’s hull, and the new rules make the once over-costed and under armored Chimera fun again.

Great review, P, and I'm still reading through it so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but unless I'm missing something, "an officer may attempt to issue orders provided he is not...embarked on a transport vehicle" (p. 29). If I'm reading this right, then the officer must be disembarked in order to issue orders.

If it's an error, it's not only the chimera section, but also the CCS and Creed sections.

As far as I can tell, the commissar lord's bubble extends from a chimera when he's embarked.

willydstyle wrote:But for every unit you can tie up otherwise, your army has one less target to focus on.

I'm not saying that they're super, and you're probably correct in your assumption that the valks and vendettas are more points-efficient, and a better use of a FA slot, but I see the armored sentinels as something that could be of great use to a less-mobile Guard army.

This is a great example of a use for a sub-optimal unit, and is really why I started this whole project anyway. yes, I think it's worthwhile to point out that a squadron of Armored Sentinels can tie up enemy units for a quite a while. I don't think this lifts the unit as a whole out casual play, for four reasons:
1) Top players will remember that they're AV12 and will avoid them
2) The nastiest assault squads can deal with dreadnoughts, if not easily, after a few rounds on average
3) The canny openent doesn't mind having his units locked in combat, as it portects them from shooting
4) A combat like that can really block LOS.

This ability makes them a better unit, no doubt, but they're still expensive and toothless.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Add in a special rule that allows an officer inside to use orders measuring from the Chimera’s hull, and the new rules make the once over-costed and under armored Chimera fun again.

Great review, P, and I'm still reading through it so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but unless I'm missing something, "an officer may attempt to issue orders provided he is not...embarked on a transport vehicle" (p. 29). If I'm reading this right, then the officer must be disembarked in order to issue orders.

If it's an error, it's not only the chimera section, but also the CCS and Creed sections.

As far as I can tell, the commissar lord's bubble extends from a chimera when he's embarked.

The Chimera itself has a special rule that allows orders to be issued from a squad embarked in it, measuring range and LOS from anywhere on the hull. (p. 39). It's a rule that makes both Command squads and chimeras notably better.

The commissar would have his aura boosted by the Chimera too, unless I'm mistaken on rules for passive abilities. My disdain for the C-Lord isn't his abilities, which are fine, it's: 1) his cost, 2) his use of an HQ slot better spent simply on more orders, and 3) the fact that his abilities most help deeply mediocre units like Heavy Weapon squads. I don't doubt that an army built around Creed, a C-Lord, and a ton of heavy weapon squads wouldn't be somewhat successful. That's a lot of fire power that will reliably be twin-linked or go through cover. It's just a very expensive core that doesn't really add much in the way of shooting, and building around Heavy Weapons Squads is simply 4th edition thinking.

I'm not sure if it's what you're trying to say, but close combats block LoS via "true line of sight" in 5th ed: they no longer act as area terrain as in 4th ed.

I also think another plus for the armored sentinels is that they can pretty reliably assault units to either pull them off of objectives, or contest objectives. Valkyries cannot contest as easily because they are not tanks, and so cannot tank shock units off of objectives.

willydstyle wrote:I'm not sure if it's what you're trying to say, but close combats block LoS via "true line of sight" in 5th ed: they no longer act as area terrain as in 4th ed.

I also think another plus for the armored sentinels is that they can pretty reliably assault units to either pull them off of objectives, or contest objectives. Valkyries cannot contest as easily because they are not tanks, and so cannot tank shock units off of objectives.

do you really think you can reliably draw LOS through an Armormed Sentinel fighting 8 Marines? Normally you can move a sentinel to set up a shot, when in combat it's harder. I guess it's not as big a deal as it used to be, but still worth pointing out.

I buy what you're saying, I'm just thinking back to all the units that normally pull objective grabbing duties for my opponents, and they all have one or more of the following: transports to hide in, melta guns, powerfists, or krak grenades on everybody. I can see the situation you describe, where you charge a squad, their counter charge pulls them off the objective, tactical stalemate ensues. The problem is that a savvy oppoenent will simply move the squad back to 2.5" away from the objective diametrically opposite the incoming sentinel, so that they're still on the objective at least to contest. If they have a fist or krak grenades, they hope to pop the walker. If mounted in a rhino, they sentinel can't reach it, and they can shoot the sentinel with their melta gun. If on foot, why not string out to shoot with the melta gun?

All of these scenarios rely on your opponent not being able to handle AV12/10/10 walkers that start at 55pts and only go out. They have no pre-game move, no outflank, and move only 6" a turn. I think that good armies fall into two basic types: those that can handle them easily in close combat, and those that can handle them easily in long range shooting.

I also have to point out having now played a good dozen games against high level tournament lists for testing, that the Valkdetta is really game changing for an IG mech force.

The old IG was very slow and very fragile in terms of objective grabbing. You could hold your own, but grabbing the enemy was tough, and last turn objective grabs almost did not exist.

The new IG with three valkdettas has a flexibility both in speed and deployment options that it has never had before and can be very hard to deal with when combined with a mechanized core.

bigtmac68 wrote:The old IG was very slow and very fragile in terms of objective grabbing. You could hold your own, but grabbing the enemy was tough, and last turn objective grabs almost did not exist.

Huh?

You took Drop Troops to grab stuff, castling Tanks around Grenadiers / ISTs holding the backfield.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:The old IG was very slow and very fragile in terms of objective grabbing. You could hold your own, but grabbing the enemy was tough, and last turn objective grabs almost did not exist.

Huh?

You took Drop Troops to grab stuff, castling Tanks around Grenadiers / ISTs holding the backfield.

Ok, so the old IG was either slow or fragile. In casual play the IG did fine, but trust me: at higher levels, the IG really had trouble taking objectives.

Less arguing with the trolls and more Heavy support review please.

Great review so far; very informative.

I tend to agree with you about the armored sentinel. I could see players taking one if they had a free FA slot (somehow) to tangle with bloodcrushers, chaos lords or noise marines, but that would be really situational. I do kind of want to model one with a plasma cannon to look like the giant clanks from Girl Genius though...

The review is still rockin man! Reading good enough to keep me at work till 545!

Moz wrote:Less arguing with the trolls and more Heavy support review please.

Great review so far; very informative.

IMO the discussions about the review are just as important as the review itself. It serves as a stress-test of the authors ideas (off the battle-field at least) and is important because nobody is 100% right 100% of the time.

Wehrkind wrote:I tend to agree with you about the armored sentinel. I could see players taking one if they had a free FA slot (somehow) to tangle with bloodcrushers, chaos lords or noise marines, but that would be really situational. I do kind of want to model one with a plasma cannon to look like the giant clanks from Girl Genius though...

The review is still rockin man! Reading good enough to keep me at work till 545!

Even though I think I'm the main proponent of the armored sentinel, even I don't think that they're good enough to be run en masse. Either a single sentinel or a squadron of two to make the most advantage of smoke launchers, and to make a low-priority unit that can turn into a difficult-to-deal-with high-priority target under the right circumstances. IMO I don't even think their weaponry is too important, because as Polonius points out: there are more points-efficient firing platforms for whichever weapon you decide to bring on them.

Alright, people who like to join in, chant with me:

Hea-vy Support!

Hea-vy Support!

Hea-vy Support!

I'd rather see boobies.

Now I wish there were boobs in the codex. It's photoshop time.

Come on now! let's see the heavies!

I am considering the Armored Sentinel for one major reason. It can tie up a big unit of Blood Crushers for the game. The Blood Crushers will drop close to the IG lines. Two lone AV 12 Sentinels can easily be on the left and right side of your army. Anywhere the Crushers drop, a sentinel can engage it and tie up the unit. It's still not an easy thing to shoot down all those Crushers. It is much easier to let them sit out the game against a 50-70pt unit for the IG.

It's not ideal or foolproof, but I'd consider an Armored Sentinel or two just to protect myself against those Blood Crushers.

I'll be investing in a fair few Scout Sentinels for my Catachans. I'm thinking they'll have Lascannons because I won't have much AT in my list otherwise.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I'd rather see boobies.

Look down.

malfred wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:I'd rather see boobies.

Look down.