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There is some debate over whether you can knock them below 11 models and make them run even then.

If you reduce their leadership, you reduce their regular LD of 7. So, now the Orks LD is 0 effectively, so they need double 1s to pass. However, at this point, the Ork player chooses to sub in the number of models left in the mob for his leadership. So, if he has 10 models, its back to a 10.


I am not sure, but this sounds pretty clear to me. Any thoughts?



Clay

Primarch wrote:There is some debate over whether you can knock them below 11 models and make them run even then.

If you reduce their leadership, you reduce their regular LD of 7. So, now the Orks LD is 0 effectively, so they need double 1s to pass. However, at this point, the Ork player chooses to sub in the number of models left in the mob for his leadership. So, if he has 10 models, its back to a 10.


I am not sure, but this sounds pretty clear to me. Any thoughts?



Clay

This is how my playgroup has been doing it. Without this rule PBS decimates any orks on foot or bikes. It wrecks units like Nob Bikers, Warbikers or any infantry unit that isn't safely in a vehicle.

That's how my group currently plays it as well.

What happens if you use PBS against a squad of fearless terminators? Am I right in presuming PBS doesn't do anything to fearless units? You specifically mentioned "10" orks, but what about 11 orks?

I ran into a problem with an Eldar player this weekend using mind war against a nob in a boyz squad. He said that my leadership was 7. I said that it was X, where X was the number of boyz in my squad (12 at the time). He said that wasn't true, mind war works off the base leadership of the model. I said, "Show me that in your codex." 2 minutes later, I said, "Your codex doesn't say anything about base leadership."

We called the TO over, who spent 5 minutes trying to figure out what to do and never ended up with an answer. I rolled a cover save against it and passed, so it was a moot point, but I still don't know what to do.

Kevin Nash wrote:This is how my playgroup has been doing it. Without this rule PBS decimates any orks on foot or bikes. It wrecks units like Nob Bikers, Warbikers or any infantry unit that isn't safely in a vehicle.

PBS decimates any unit on foot. Why should Orks with less than 10 models left get a perk? I don't think the various PBS interactions (Stubborn, Rites of Battle, other leadership replacements) is clear, but the way you phrased it, it sounds like Orks are getting a special treatment.

You mean like Daemons also? Who are always fearless and so aren't affected by PBS? That kind of special treatment you mean? There are always rules out there that counter other rules, its just the way the game works.


Like Star Gods ignore invulnerable saves. Are they going to be accused of getting "special treatment"? No, because those just happen to be their rules. Same for Orks vs the PBS.



Clay

An even sillier question, not in terms of impact on game, cuz it never comes up, but in terms of rules is Pariahs vs. Orks.

It's flat out the same rule, not modifications, but substitutions.

You've got, say, 9 orks. Each Ork has a ld of 7. The unit as a whole changes its leadership to 9, due to Mob Rule, but also changes its leadership to 7 due to Pariahs. Who's last? Its totally ambiguous.

ooooohhhh....

So the debate is about which order leadership modifiers take place in. Interesting dilemma.

False dilemma is more like it, since the order is irrelevant. I'll link to the last thread I was involved in about this sort of thing and let the matter drop though.

Kevin Nash and I have been playing "substitution" leadership for mob rule.

Their mob size doesn't "become" their new leadership, and thus get knocked down by weaken resolve or soulless. They use their size as a 'substitution' value.

When your teacher in school got the flu, the substitute teacher that came in did not become her. If she did become her, she would also have the flu.

That's probably a pretty terrible analogy.

This is verbatim, but i believe the line is...

"any ork may substitute the current mob size for his leadership value..."

You can do whatever you want to my leadership value, but unless you kill my orks, you can't modify my mob size. And that is what I'm going to use 'instead' of my leadership value, for any morale or pinning.

This post might save a couple people from having to tread the treacherous YMDC forum. But I know the discussion belongs there. Sorry bout that.

Kevin Nash from the NWO?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Kevin Nash from the NWO?

Nash Diesel himself. He gave up his leather pants for an ork army.

That rocks hard.

Dashofpepper wrote:So the debate is about which order leadership modifiers take place in. Interesting dilemma.

Shep wrote:Their mob size doesn't "become" their new leadership, and thus get knocked down by weaken resolve or soulless. They use their size as a 'substitution' value.

Interesting distinction in the rule. I can see where it's open to, "which occurs first?", but at least seems to put Mob Rule on the same level as Rites of Battle.

In other news, great job at the tourney man! Especially with such a "tier 3" army, heh.

Well done on the victories.

Holy smokes! I was paying 25 points for my Deff Rollas; they should have been 20 points!!

Well up until an hour before the tournament I was paying 40 points each for Nobz to have bikes. It lead to a disaster for me. I posted why in my Battle report.

I also just discovered that Big Meks have Mek tools. *faceplant*

Dash is an extremely competitive player and I like that. He comes across as straight forward and honest. I don't think he would try to pull any shennigans if I were playing against him.

I'm on the fence about playing twice after winning the first day. An unscrupolous (sp?) person could turn around and sell their certificate to the highest bidder but seeing that Dash was honest about it I don't think he would do something like that. Playing twice was probably more than likely a means to simply just play some more games. If your old lady would let you out of the house two days in a row over the course of one weekend then all the more to you both.

Erm...thanks? =p I can't hear the word shenanigans without thinking of the movie "Super Trooper."

Yes, having more games was nice. I left my winning ticket from the first day with the TO. Getting $120 worth of GW stuff without having to pay a tournament entry fee was the real prize.

I don't see a problem with playing in both. Heck he and I talked about it a couple weeks before Ard Boyz since I was planning on doing the same thing. I just like to play big games!

I 100% agree with playing in two tournaments on separate days. Whining about not advancing in a tournament because someone beat you seems ridiculous to me.