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I have always liked it but the price,oh SWEET MOTHER OF SPACE ELVES the price!!!!!!!!

Where I pay R180(180 rand) for a box of ork boys(R180=$22).I pay R380 for a unit of kossite woodsmen(R380=$44).Not a large difference I know but for the moment it is just a bit too much for me.

Wow that's one hell of a retail markup you have there, they're $24 from Maelstrom Games which is a much more pocket friendly 188 Rand. IIRC postage is free.

/H.B.M.C.

I see savings in my future!

George Spiggott wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:The facts are that I and many others like me, 40k players and non, don't like WM because it's very imbalanced, klunky, unrefined and generally a bad game.

So you're in the non 40k playing camp right? Given that you dislike imbalanced, klunky, unrefined and generally bad games. I was hoping that you'd clarify on your opinion from earlier that Warmachine is unbalanced.

I did. you seemed to ignore it as you weren't exactly sure which unit/list I was talking about. I don't remember either though as it was a while back. The simple fact is that WM can create some insanely one sided matchups, ones that even loaded dice can't fix. I play 40k. i find the rules to be pretty solid although any tabletop game will always have it's own semi-unique quirks. 40k is generally balanced as well, and each new codex release seems to lend advantage to older neglected armies. The only thing I like about the WM company is it's habit of simulotaneous updates. GW could learn a thing or 2 from that!

With regards to balance the difference between 40k and WM is that balance is getting better in Warmachine unlike 40k where it just seems to be a never ending cycle of one broken codex after another. I'd also point out that it has always been possible to crank up your army just by adding a few new models or even just by changing your caster... With 40k, in many cases, you are shopping for a whole new army.

Kungfuhustler wrote:I did. you seemed to ignore it as you weren't exactly sure which unit/list I was talking about. I don't remember either though as it was a while back.

A vague 'this character is unstoppable' just doesn't cut the mustard, your vague reference doesn't fill me with confidence that you know what you're talking about. Could anyone clarify who this unstoppable character is? I think you may be referring to Vlad but as wind wall is one of the weakest tools in his armoury you can't possibly be referring to this tactic.

beefHeart wrote:With regards to balance the difference between 40k and WM is that balance is getting better in Warmachine unlike 40k where it just seems to be a never ending cycle of one broken codex after another. I'd also point out that it has always been possible to crank up your army just by adding a few new models or even just by changing your caster... With 40k, in many cases, you are shopping for a whole new army.

Name a broken Codex released in the last 2 years. Oh wait... There aren't any. QQ

George Spiggott wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:I did. you seemed to ignore it as you weren't exactly sure which unit/list I was talking about. I don't remember either though as it was a while back.

A vague 'this character is unstoppable' just doesn't cut the mustard, your vague reference doesn't fill me with confidence that you know what you're talking about. Could anyone clarify who this unstoppable character is? I think you may be referring to Vlad but as wind wall is one of the weakest tools in his armoury you can't possibly be referring to this tactic.

I am not a WM player. I don't know the names of the armies save for a couple, let alone SC's. When I checked the game out (a year ago) I talked to a lot of my friends about the game and discovered that there are several un-winnable matchups. The best example is the SC who denies enemies to shoot at his unit in any way, matched up against a pure shooting list. The fact that due to rediculous movement rules that require overwatch to work properly, in a system that does not have overwatch, and your un-shootable army can shoot all it want's to! Ridiculous! When I discovered that pure shooting builds cannot EVER be competitive because of SC's like that I decided to let WM grow up for another few years. Maybe it will be a good, balanced game... someday.

TLDR version: kungfuhustler doesn't know enough about the game to really judge the balance, but since he asked some friends opinions he realized that since a force that forgoes movement, closecombat, and magic in lieu of shooting cannot win if it faces a force designed to counter shooting - that the game is unbalanced and should be flamed online when possible.

Page 5 sorts these guys out just fine.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

beefHeart wrote:With regards to balance the difference between 40k and WM is that balance is getting better in Warmachine unlike 40k where it just seems to be a never ending cycle of one broken codex after another. I'd also point out that it has always been possible to crank up your army just by adding a few new models or even just by changing your caster... With 40k, in many cases, you are shopping for a whole new army.

Name a broken Codex released in the last 2 years. Oh wait... There aren't any. QQ

George Spiggott wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:I did. you seemed to ignore it as you weren't exactly sure which unit/list I was talking about. I don't remember either though as it was a while back.

A vague 'this character is unstoppable' just doesn't cut the mustard, your vague reference doesn't fill me with confidence that you know what you're talking about. Could anyone clarify who this unstoppable character is? I think you may be referring to Vlad but as wind wall is one of the weakest tools in his armoury you can't possibly be referring to this tactic.

I am not a WM player. I don't know the names of the armies save for a couple, let alone SC's. When I checked the game out (a year ago) I talked to a lot of my friends about the game and discovered that there are several un-winnable matchups. The best example is the SC who denies enemies to shoot at his unit in any way, matched up against a pure shooting list. The fact that due to ridiculous movement rules that require overwatch to work properly, in a system that does not have overwatch, and your un-shootable army can shoot all it want's to! Ridiculous! When I discovered that pure shooting builds cannot EVER be competitive because of SC's like that I decided to let WM grow up for another few years. Maybe it will be a good, balanced game... someday.

So what if I bring my infantry based IG (and I own no special or heavy weapons) against a Mechanized IG list?

I can't shoot the enemy at all. How is this different then the nightmare scenario in WM so described?

The difference is the WM game allows a number of ways tactically/list build to bypass a models "immunity" to shooting. A model in WM might have an ability that causes ranged attacks to "auto-miss", but you as atatcker have ways to get around this by using template weapons and getting close so the scatter of the automiss can't scatter off the target thus he is still hit, magic is it's own classification of attack so ignores the ranged attack auto-misss, you can move a model of your own near the enemy model so protected and target your own model to catch enemy model in the effect or to have an effect that jumps to next closest model hit him, etc.

Inthe baove 40k scenario you have no way to bypass the fact that your lasguns can't hurt any of the Ig tanks. OF course you can remedy this by buying heavy/special wepaons, etc. Wow, same is true in WM: every faction in Wm has ways and tools to bypassor deal with things like stealth that cause auto-misses or abilities that prevent targeting. The challenge in Wm is to bring the tools to deal with a variety o tactical challenegs. A person who puts all his eggs in one basket and brings an all shooty army is asking to get fethed. maybe bring a balanced army and stop complainign when your one trick pony runs up against somethign designed to counter said trick. This smae stuff happens and holds true in 40K as well...

People that claim Wm is rife with such impossible match ups simply don't know much about WM and have not put in the time to learn.

Moz wrote:TLDR version: kungfuhustler doesn't know enough about the game to really judge the balance, but since he asked some friends opinions he realized that since a force that forgoes movement, closecombat, and magic in lieu of shooting cannot win if it faces a force designed to counter shooting - that the game is unbalanced and should be flamed online when possible.

Page 5 sorts these guys out just fine.

O' contrair mon sharie! I actually did do a bit of research, as I wanted to build said shooting force almost entirely as I decided that a particular rifleman model was amazing. Then I found out how easy it is to counter a shooting list, upon discussing the game with some veteran WM gamers who are friends of mine, and no viable workaround to make it work. Sure, I could do a couple of things with the list but that would take away from it's core principal of shooting things to death. In 40k I can have a purely shooting army and nobody can say, "Nuh uh! I has uberboss-x so you can't shoot me!" Because 40k is better balanced. Yes it has the old list that can't work right now, Necrons, and that makes me nerdrage to no end but enitre army types are not uncompetitive! If I want to build an army with a battle theme (assault, fast troops, tanks, walkers, shooters) in 40k there is an army that I can go buy and make that work. I have not really seen/heard of that being true with WM.

Have you found a pure shooting army that cannot be countered by shooting denial lists? The fact that there are shooting denial lists is enough for me to not play WM because I like armies that shoot. The ggame might be good in a good many ways, but if an entire army type can just be denied I sense a great wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CG gamer: Dammit, I meant to hit the ignore button. oh well. Have you ever heard of an all lasgun army? I sure haven't. But even an army without heavy/special weapons can have meltabombs en' masse! So I'm pretty sure that with good dice said army still has a chance.

In 40k I CAN run all shooty armies and win.
In WM I CAN'T run all shooty armies and win.
See my point here? you yourself made my point by conceding that all shooty armies can't win in WM.

I don't see anything in your post that contradicts my summary. Other than claiming that my summary then means the game is unbalanced.

But I suppose that's not necessarily the point. I can tell you (from experience) that plenty of all-shooty army builds have no problem at all winning, but they do require you to have plans for how to handle the common anti-shooting counters, along with a plan for how to win. Key elements for a shooty list would be mobility, defensive abilities to keep hostiles at bay, and counters to common anti-shooting abilities.

Static shooty simply isn't aggressive enough to cut it - no player worth their salt is just going to walk their caster into your gunline without a plan. Nor will your gunline be able to advance on the enemy force to claim objectives directly into the maw of a fast melee army either.

So... I guess yeah I'll agree with you. A stand and shoot only force would have a tough time in WM/H - and if we're going to call that imbalanced, then I'm cool with that also.

Kungfuhustler wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CG gamer: Dammit, I meant to hit the ignore button. oh well. Have you ever heard of an all lasgun army? I sure haven't. But even an army without heavy/special weapons can have meltabombs en' masse! So I'm pretty sure that with good dice said army still has a chance. .

If your gonna ignore someone then do so and shut up about it.

Telling someone your gonna ignore them in multiple posts like a drama queen is sort of sad. Do it already.

Have I heard of an all lasgun Ig army? No, I wouldn't expect to see one because any Ig general worth his salt is gonna build an army with more tools present to deal with things like armor, etc.

But thats the point, no competent WM player is gonna build a one dimensional shooty army either and expect it to runt he field.

Both games reward those who build balanced forces that utilize an array of abilities and unit types. One dimensional armies can win in both systems, but they also are in danger of running into armies that are designed to counter them or that contain something they are not designed to beat. You can't build a limited/over-specialized force and then complain that it got trumped by the one thing you didnt factor for, thats the price of over specialization...

WM and 40K are no different in this regard. Your argument is weak if you continue to claim otherwise. IF you don't like WM or care to play it then so be it, that is your choice, but your assumptions about it either your own or those based upon the stated limited/false knowledge of your friends don't hold water...

Started playing Cygnar got the battle box built and painted all but one jack. The idea was it would be cheaper than playing 40K again except that it inspired me to play 40K again.... oops

Hundreds of points in Jack-heavy Cryx. Maybe WM2 will be more fun.

I have played a couple of games of WarMachine. I have a decent sized Khador force. I would like to play a bit more but only one of my friends play it. It is way different than 40k. Like the book says "Play Like You've Got A Pair". Its fast and brutal.

played WM for a while. Quit when I realized it was about combos. Just a CCG with minis really.

Some of my friends play it, but I don't think I'll be getting into it any time soon.

Oh, and don't let anyone tell you you have to have the new shinies. Models from Prime (the first release) are still extremely competitive.

This is what happened to me. I played when the game first came out with a few friends, then when they quit playing I had no one to play with for years.

I moved to Austin and asked if I could play with my old figures and was told that they won't stand up to the new ones well. It turned me off the game and they are still collecting dust.

mortal888 wrote:

Oh, and don't let anyone tell you you have to have the new shinies. Models from Prime (the first release) are still extremely competitive.

This is what happened to me. I played when the game first came out with a few friends, then when they quit playing I had no one to play with for years.

I moved to Austin and asked if I could play with my old figures and was told that they won't stand up to the new ones well. It turned me off the game and they are still collecting dust.

Sounds like the people just didnt want to play with you.

The Prime models continue to be some of the best models in the game and the core of many army builds to this day. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either an idiot or lying to you...

I play Trolls and have a cygnar force I'm looking to sell to a mate (couldn't get into the playstyle.) I'd like to play Dwarven Mercs maybe, and probably Legion of Everblight.

I really like my trolls. My three casters (Doomie, Grim and Kegslayer) give me three very different playstyles with the same basic models. I love my dire troll heavies, and my full blood troll lights. The troll infantry and cavalry is usually fairly good too.

My problems with the game revolve around the all metal nature, but at the same time I can understand that plastic is a bit expensive when you're not shifting GW esque amounts of product. And my other problem is that PPs quality control for models is piss poor. They allow through far too many badly posed or poorly proportioned models. Even through Troll Champions are one of their best units, I will never buy them in their current form. They're just too damn fugly.

I want to play pretty badly. None of my friends or anyone at my FLGS is even interested enough to try. Feels bad, man.

Played it didn't really like it.

Reasons;
I didn't like the 'king' aspect of it. Lose one figure and game over, which means that one small mistake/error cost the game.

Combo's. So in order to to be competitive I have to be fully aware of every and all special abilities with an eidetic memory.

Points? Now, I don't exactly know about this, but isn't there an upper points limit, after which you need to go to Hordes? (So another system with an abnoxious amount of additional special rules to memorise)

Factions. I played recently in a club league, all figures supplied by our WM Fanantic, all matchups were Cryx/Cygnar. Some factions appear to be easier to 'learn' than others. So in our league of 'unwashed' gamers, all things being equal, the Cryx won in every matchup. And when I say all things being equal, each side had the basic starter box, and neither player had any experience in WM.
Where things wern't equal, was that those players who did have experience wanted Cryx. Hmmm.

If WM is your thing, go for it. But leave me out.

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:Points? Now, I don't exactly know about this, but isn't there an upper points limit, after which you need to go to Hordes? (So another system with an abnoxious amount of additional special rules to memorise)

This is 100% false.

"Hordes" is a separate but fully compatible game focused on the "wild" factions (druids, trolls, etc., etc.) of the Warmachine world. They use the same rules engine for the most part, but the warlocks (the character leaders in Hordes) use a different system for their magic and controlling/interacting with their beasts then the Warcasters on the warmachine side use for their magic and controlling their robots.

In GW terms it would be like if you could play WHFB armies against 40k armies. Hordes and Warmachine are designed and balanced to be played against each other or as separate entities.

CT GAMER wrote:
This is 100% false.

Which is why I phrased it as a question. With the limit of one caster and only a certain number of "tokens/orders" I took it as there was a certain level beyond which it becomes unplayable.

Cheers

Andrew

Played a game under the new MKII rules yesterday, the first game since it came out years ago. This game rocks! I can't wait to play again next week.

Do you think I should try it???


I do not like the warjack minis, they are to comical and cartoony, but the rest, especially the Warcasters, are so cool!

I like what I saw when I looked at the mini war gaming khador army.


linky http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/hUdDmk2HHasD


Do you think that khador or cryx is a good army?

Hmmm... Basically from what I hear, its Chess meets Steroids?
Saw the Miniwargamming intro and it looked damn good though.

With this WM is broken, 40k is broken, get over it you girls, if you want a game not 'broken' try WHFB or LOTR.

The game is fun to be sure, but my eight year old has picked up the rules in about four months of playing and is now beating seasoned guys that have been playing for 10+ years. 40K is about spamming the uber units and running the lists that the so called "pros" tells us are the only lists/units that win on this and other forums. 40k ISN't tactically deep. It has rather simple mechanics and very predictable builds for each army. One can look at a given list and predict exactly what it's purpose iss and what the player will do with it. 40K is about kick ass models and all the hobby potential it offers first and foremost and the great setting and backstory to boot.. Its a great game, but if one wants to claim that WM isn't tactical one better realize that claiming 40K is or is more so is talking utter garbage...

QFT.

Im probably going to start collecting Hordes, most likely the Wood Elf-type guys soon. Have read Warmachine and whilst I think the background is lacking the rules seem great as do the combos.
40k is still darn fun but after X amount of years its always nice to broaden your horizons/try something different, although Im a little wary of the cost of WM, moreso if you want to play the larger scale games.

Never played it and most likly wont start either. But then again who knows

Not really interested, for a number of reasons.

Too bad too, since I do like some of their models.