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Moopy wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:

True, I won't, I'll just have my Debt Card trying to slice my throat. So are any of the Chaos things in the Books actually good to use? Do they have rules that make slightly more sense than the Renegade Marine Dex?

I thought that the Chaos lists were about on par with the LaTD mini dex that came out a few years ago. There are always a few units that aren't worth taking because the abilities don't match the cost.

The armies definitely fit the stories, but might not always work well in the 40k system. DKK may look great, but a mass IG infantry charge in a world of bugs and orks= Lots of port mortem medals handed out. On the other hand the artillery aspect is very nice. The armies in the books are best suited for fighting the other armies in the same book; the chaos list vs the Krieg list. I've played a few games with my friends and that's been pretty fun.

So when using the armies use them against other forge world armies for best effect.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:So with a little bit of doctoring the rules will work fine, my group enjoys making units actually worth the price, or upping the price if it needs it. Sometimes...

Easily. Some things you can't really solve (I can't think of a way to make the Conqueror useful using the current Russ archetype in the IG Codex), but a lot of them come down to points values (make the Macharius the same cost as a Land Raider and its instantly viable).

That's the one that was able to move and shoot?

If you do end up getting Cyclops Demo Vehicles, I suggest making them T4(5) W2 Sv3+ rather than AV10 vehicles. Why? They're about the same size as Epic Land Raiders, yet they're vehicles, meaning they can't hide behind infantry... which is silly for something so small. Also make them not worth any KP's. It's absurd (the Adepticon FAQ did this I believe) to make them worth 1 KP when they explode.

I'll keep that in mind.

Which brings up another point, only this new IA and the one before it were written with 5th Ed in mind, and while the first two have got FAQ updates (wierdly, FW has better FAQ support than GW), they weren't written for the current ruleset, so you'd probably have to do some tweaking anyway.

Okay.

And don't buy Imperial Armour Apocalypse. It's a shocking book filled with more than the usual amount of mistakes. The Krieg Deathrider formation has no special rules, yet you pay extra points for it - one of the more egregious examples of Warwick's copypasta-disastas. There's a Marine formation that gives the Marine army Flank March and all you have to do is buy a TechMarine + 3 Dreads (and pay 50 points). The formation doesn't have Flank March (as you'd expect it to say were it written by someone who proofreads their work), the formation gives the Marine player Flank March, for his whole army, so he doesn't even have to pick it as one of his choices. Amazing...

That sounds ridiculous.

I don't feel that this is worth starting a new thread over. Take action if you must, but do we really need another "great debate" thread? This should be the end of it anyway...

I'll call that pretty morally wretched.

You have a pretty strange definition of the word "morality", then, when you consider a man who has broken no law to be "morally wretched".

Uploading in his country is against the law. Downloading isn't, and unless he also admitted to uploading content, he's done nothing wrong. At least nothing I would consider "morally wretched" behavior. You know what I call "morally wretched"? Rape. Murder. Exploitation. Human trafficking. Not legally downloading a .pdf of a book about toy soldiers, a book that he's apparently going to end up buying anyway since he's decided it's worth the money from downloading it and checking out its content, not by staring at the pretty cover and clicking "add to cart" like GW apparently wants you to.

Not only that, but I would argue that just blindly following laws does not make you more "moral" than anyone else, and depending on the extent you go to, might even make you a little bit silly. Ever been to dumblaws.com? Look up your state and tell me if you've broken any of them. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and all that...

Anyway, I'd love for GW to start giving us free .pdf previews of their new books, maybe 10-15 pages, to get us hyped up over them (having never been allowed to browse through an IA book before I'd really like to see why the hell they cost so damn much). I'd love to see new models and books coming out months in advance, instead of seeing everything a mere few weeks before release and being kept in the dark. But if you honestly believe any amount of hand-written letters are going to get them to do all that, you're out of your mind (or just plain naive). I can't think of a more pointless waste of time than that, one person trying to change the business strategies of one of the most stubborn companies on the planet.

Finally, I'm "immature" because I believe I have certain rights as a consumer? Explain that one to me. Who is more immature, the guy who wants to browse through a book before he shells out $100+ for it, or the publisher that keeps it sealed in plastic hoping that you'll buy it on impulse, not caring about your satisfaction after the fact? Personally I think I'm just using common sense. That's a hell of a lot of money to drop on a product when I honestly have no clue what I'm getting, and if you're telling me my only option in that case is to just not buy, I guess I'll continue to not buy then, but it's GW's loss not mine.

Well, here's hoping that the Krieg armoured company is of some use. Otherwise I'll have a nice background book with hopefully a good ending, regardless of the outcome. IA 6 was okay, at least it had the rules for the Krieg engineers and the Hades assault drill. Not that super useful but I love them nonetheless.

Man... the amount of argumentative fallacies and other blather spouted out by those that find they have have to justify their actions is... amazing. This goes to show how self absorbed people get when they feel they can to do whatever they damn well please because they feel they have some magical right to do it. Consumer rights?? Ok, google search that topic and show me where it says you have a RIGHT to download illegally uploaded material. Come on, let see it. Sure, there's nothing wrong with WANTING to see what in the book. What wrong is the way it's done. Boo hoo that something isn't as easy as you would like it to be.

With that same logic you could also find:

Poacher kills an endangered animal in his country, carts it across the boarder and then sells it to buyer. Buyer can legally buy it in his country. Is buyer absolved of morality issues involved in the extinction of species just because it's legal to buy? Hell no. Blood Diamonds anyone? Same category, just a little more extreme, but you get the picture. Just because you have the option to do it, does not absolve you of the bigger picture (morality)

Yes, I do write to businesses, usually via e-mail but sometimes via snail mail. GW was one of them (See the Blood Angels thread). YES I get responses. That craptastic attitude of, "Oh nothing matters so I won't bother to do anything except ridicule those that do something useful" really become self fulfilling now doesn't it?

Back on topic.

I have a feeling that even though the Imperials will "win". Large amount of Vraks is going to be inhospitable thanks to the Nurgle followers, and the vast majority of supplies, weapons, stockpiles will have been compromised, used up, or destroyed. Whatever fortress this was, it will no longer be viable for years to come.

As for what the new book will put out? So far:
Chaos: Chaos titan(?), Brass Scorpion, Nurble Blight Drones, Nurgle Sorcerer (named character?)
Imperial: New Inquisitor, Minotaur, more I'm forgetting.

In all likeliness the world will be given Exterminatus in the end along with all the men of the 88th Siege army. The final paragraph will most likely drone on about how this is the Imperium at work and that winning the war was just to show those Chaos dopes that the Emperor would not stand for it, regardless of the cost or if anything at all could be salvaged in the end.

They already did exterminatus in IA4, didn't they? Would they really repeat themselves so soon?

I think we know the Imperium is going to win this one after all the sacrifices they've made means they deserve it. Otherwise I want to see Rex do something heroic at the end. I don't know why but I've just got this image of him in my head dueling a Bloodthirster as Imperial forces purge the city.

Breotan wrote:Would they really repeat themselves so soon?

It's Warwick - The Copypasta Masta. If he can copy something from somewhere else, he will.

Heroic? feth THAT gak. Let it go unnoticed, like the rest of the exploits of the 88th Siege Army. Ten to one everybody but the GK's die or get nuked from orbit because of a taint.

Sidstyler wrote:You have a pretty strange definition of the word "morality", then.

Thank you for trying to make him understand, but I don't think there is any use arguing with people who are so full of their own presumed righteousness that they stubbornly counter valid arguments with their personal opinion like that opinion is the only truth, or conveniently disregard some of your arguments to which they know they don't have an adequate response.

Let me just say that the ones who are the most vocal about morality often are the biggest hypocrites when you put their lives under a microscope. But we obviously don't know, so I'm certainly not saying that this applies here.

Maybe he lives the life of a saint. Who knows?








and maybe we will all go to hell for masturbating as well

TBD wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:You have a pretty strange definition of the word "morality", then.

Thank you for trying to make him understand, but I don't think there is any use arguing with people who are so full of their own presumed righteousness that they stubbornly counter valid arguments with their personal opinion like that opinion is the only truth, or conveniently disregard some of your arguments to which they know they don't have an adequate response.

Let me just say that the ones who are the most vocal about morality often are the biggest hypocrites when you put their lives under a microscope. But we obviously don't know, so I'm certainly not saying that this applies here.

Maybe he lives the life of a saint. Who knows?








and maybe we will all go to hell for masturbating as well

Maybe not?

Lets try to steer this back on topic now.

Aw geez Alpha - quoting an entire huge post for one line? What a troll...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

(the Deus Ex Machina-Pattern Tiger Shark)

I believe the technical term is 'lol'

Does it *really* matter if someone pirates a book? Seriously.. its a book

Are they wrong? Yes? no? it doesnt really matter

This isnt morality court.. Im sure every single person here who is calling people immoral for pirating.. a BOOK also do stuff in their lives that arent perfect

Move on.. lets talk about vraks

Kirasu wrote:Does it *really* matter if someone pirates a book? Seriously.. its a book

Are they wrong? Yes? no? it doesnt really matter

This isnt morality court.. Im sure every single person here who is calling people immoral for pirating.. a BOOK also do stuff in their lives that arent perfect

Move on.. lets talk about vraks

Hey, this is Dakka, we'll have none of that common sense here mister.

Kirasu wrote:Does it *really* matter if someone pirates a book? Seriously.. its a book

And it's someone's intellectual property. If you produce any IP (software developer for example) would you want somone attining it without you being compensated? I know I wouldn't.

TBD wrote:
Let me just say that the ones who are the most vocal about morality often are the biggest hypocrites when you put their lives under a microscope. But we obviously don't know, so I'm certainly not saying that this applies here.

Your Ad Hominem attack won't make you right. You really need to learn how to form an argument that isn't based on personal attacks.

I'll say this and be done with it. I work in the video game business, and when retards think they have the right to prirate whatever they want, it ends up hurting people like me.

Case in point: A long time ago I was working on Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb. 2 days after we took the gold master disk to the disk producer, we found it was on a shareware site. No bonuses were given out, no nothing because people were freaked out that sales were going to be bad. Never mind the crunch time, the traveling, etc that went into making the game. Greedy, self centered @ssh#(()s wrecked it for the team.

So, yea, be flippant when ripping off a company cause it doesn't effect anyone. Keep telling yourself that.

Moopy wrote: You really need to learn how to form an argument that isn't based on personal attacks.

Oh really? You mean like this?

First of all: as of right now downloading from the internet is not illegal in my country (with the exception of games and software) as long as the copy you make is for your own personal use, and this is regardless of the (possibly illegal) source.

So no, legally I am not doing anything wrong at all.

Uploading is illegal btw.

Second, the ethical side of it: when I am interested in a product and downloading is the only/easiest way of knowing whether or not it is worth the price they are asking then that is the way to go as far as I'm concerned.

It doesn't necessarily have to do with the ability to afford either. That is a rather ignorant misconception. It has to do with being willing to spend a certain amount of money on a certain product.

The time that I bought CD's, DVD's etc without knowing whether I would like them, only to find out that they were nowhere near worth their price, is long past. Imo the music business and the movie business brought the scale of downloading that is happening these days upon themselves. As long as they keep stubbornly overpricing their products + trying to stop downloading instead of meeting consumers with more realistic prices to give those consumers better alternatives, then they can stick it. I think the music business has been doing a better job at it lately, but the DVD business not so much.

If I download something and I think the product is worth it's asking price then I will eventually buy the real thing most of the time. I do that with music, I do that with movies, and the same goes for things like Forge World books.

I'm not blindly buying something that I suspect might be overpriced, so without the download I would not have known and they would never have gotten my money. Likewise, if I don't like the product they wouldn't have gotten my money anyway.

And if someone is truly unable to afford something they would never have gotten that money either, so how do they lose anything by it? If an actual physical product would be taken away in a store it is a completely different story.

The bottom line is: my downloading actually benifits them and it benifits me as well by not letting myself get ripped off.

You responded to that with: "whatever". So why would I bother again?

Don't call people thieves when you have nothing valid to back it up. You know your words will provoke a response, so either be prepaired to discuss that response in a decent manner or don't just throw words out there. That is what gets threads off topic.

Now be done with this.




Does anyone know when the next book will come out (the one with the Orks in it) ?

Double post

If people want to have another mile long debate on morality and the law, I suggest you head over to the recasting thread, and read about pages 12-15. Everything you guys are saying has been debated to death already.

Yes, but this is Dakka, with more Warseer.

ONly on Dakka can we see a quality flamewar about morality, injustice and tosolider erupt about...a book. Love it!

This thread is closed momentarily whilst I review for errant behavior as it has been reported.

EDIT: I am re-opening this thread. You are welcome to post but please keep it to the actual topic going forward.

Nurble

Now, to finally put that bs behind me and get back on topic (PLS DON'T LOCK PLS DON'T BAN)...*cough*...I say nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure. I don't see how this could possibly end in any other way but exterminatus, it's pretty much the de facto solution to any demonic incursion for the Imperium, isn't it?

Alright, so I cut out the part of my post dealing with that discussion, since I'm sure Frazzle wouldn't like it going right off-topic again after he just unlocked it...but just so you all know, my response was perfectly civil and I wasn't being inflammatory in the slightest (would I lie?).

No warnings have been given Siddy, just lets keep to topic going forward.

Help the lazy, what price are talking for the book again?

Thanks for looking into it Frazz.

Frazzled wrote:Help the lazy, what price are talking for the book again?

More than it's worth, but less than I'm willing to pay (but don't let FW know that, otherwise they'll put the price up).

I've never gotten any of these books. How do the krieg or renegade lists differ (generally speaking) to say the new guard codex? why would you pick one over the other?

I'm planning a small renegade army in the future, probably not till next year (I kinda want to wait and see if GW is gonna do a new & updated chimera model). Just wondering if I should go with the "real" list, or just build it as an IG chimera vet list. Only gonna do about 1000 pts tops for small games, and mix it with my chaos marines for bigger apocalypse games.

If I want to go with the vraks list, which book would I get? or do I need to get all of the books to get the "full" list?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Help the lazy, what price are talking for the book again?

More than it's worth, but less than I'm willing to pay (but don't let FW know that, otherwise they'll put the price up).

Son, you have a career in the legal profession....

Necros wrote:I've never gotten any of these books.

Not even IA4? Necros, I'm shocked!

Necros wrote:How do the krieg or renegade lists differ (generally speaking) to say the new guard codex? why would you pick one over the other?

Well you wouldn't. The lists in these books come under three broad categories:

1. Too similar to be worthwhile (Vraksian Renegades was just Guard w/different names + 2 extra units).
2. Too specific to be a general army (the D-99 boys from IA4 strike me as this - they're a subset of a subset of an army).
3. Would make your opponent gak bricks (Armoured Battlegroup from IA1 is this - kind've like Armoured Company on steroids).

But in the end you don't buy these books for the lists. The lists are a minor part IMO.

Necros wrote:If I want to go with the vraks list, which book would I get? or do I need to get all of the books to get the "full" list?

Not really. The lists in the book are representative of that stage of the campaign. So the new one has an Armoured Battlegroup - likely an update to the IA1 list done in JervisHammer style (boring, devoid of options, over-priced extra armour, etc.) - and probably won't repeat the 'Human Wave w/lots of static artillery' list of IA5, or whatever the list was in IA6. Ditto for the Renegades. The lists represent a specific part of the fluff within the book, allowing people to replay those situations. It's like with IA3 and IA4 - you get the modifications you need to play those specific forces in that specific situation, and that feeds into the historical refight missions.

Frazzled wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Help the lazy, what price are talking for the book again?

More than it's worth, but less than I'm willing to pay (but don't let FW know that, otherwise they'll put the price up).

Son, you have a career in the legal profession....

Fraz,

They aren't cheap.

They are in the £30 - £45 range.

And, while they are quite nice, they are definitely a 'luxury' in a hobby that is already a luxury.

Which is why many feel that claims of "I'll buy it later, if I like it!" are often met with disbelief.

They are certainly 'worth it' if you can 'afford it' though.

I will echo H.B.M.C.'s sentiments though that for something this pricey, they really should hire a competent Editor...