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Polonius wrote:I may be mistaken, but I'm guessing this was the thread that inspired this one:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253157.page

That thread should be nuked by a mod with one simple end message: "STFU and Play"

Deadshane1 wrote:Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments"

...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Don't you know that the thread isnt for you in the first place? I don't recall ever feeling a need to enter threads entitled "How to build the fluffiest Ultramarine army ever!" (in fact I never go into them) and rail on about how your army lacks focus and will never win a 'Best General' award.

It's just confusing to me.

just like when people whine and complain when someone uses the rules to their advantage. Too many times you see "this is such a cheese list and I would walk out on anyone who played it" speeches. Personally in 20 years Ive never seen anyone throw a fit because they were playing a hard army or a smart opponent who knows the rules. Do you see professional athletes playing a sport and not knowing the rules? Of course not, the whole point to having rules is so you can use them. These same people enter threads just to bemoan anyone who dosent play like they do.I dont know anyone that plays a truly fluffy army, everyone wants to win there game. To build a army based off of fluff looks nice and is fun in certain situations, where everyone has similar lists. As far as the players getting stomped its their own fault for not knowing who they are playing and the style of the store. Of course it is polite when facing a new opponent (especially one who is new to your store/group) to find out their style/level/experience. Its just good sportsmanship to not bury someone whos only been playing for a week or 2, on the same note if you ask that same player if they want to face a hard/med/ or soft list and they reply "you dont have to hold my hand" then they have no room to complain when they get tabled on turn 3.

Orkestra wrote:
It shouldn't detract, though, from the main idea of my post - which is that attempting to draw lines through the forum community and setting people against each other is a bad plan, and can only make the forum a less pleasant place to visit.

I'm not sure the OP was trying to draw lines so much as point out the lines that are there, and how they're exploited by some posters that are, for lack of a better word, simply trolls. Posting to add nothing to a conversation while heaping moral superiority on those in the thread isn't in any way productive, and shouldn't be done. As a tournament player that has to hear the stuff from casual gamers, that was his target, but I think we're all a little tired of that behavior in any thread.

Thinking through the consequences of making a thread is a great idea. I'm certain that, at the time, deadshane could envision that this thread wouldn't be a place for enlightened discussion, but would be a magnet for heated tempers.

Sometimes pointing out the elephant in the room is good. Rather than masking his anger behind a general statement "why do people post stuff that's not remotely welcome to the discussion," he went to the heart of the matter. I think it's been good, because we're seeing why people do it: mostly as retribution for previous sins of tournament gamers.

I disagree with the sentiment that we should all get along, we should be drawing lines and dividing us into different factions. This is DakkaDakka, a forum that prides itself on the way it treats other posters. you know the old saw, "I tell it like it is, warts n' all."

Maybe the admins could come up with a "tagging" system, so when a tournament thread or discussion crops up, only those posters with a "competition" tag could post in it. At the same time, only "modelers" could post in modeling threads, only "painters" could post in the painting threads, "roleplayers" could only post in story threads, and so on. As an additional caveat, each poster can only choose one "title," as there is clearly no room for cross posts here on Dakka. This would also prevent anyone from accidentally seeing an idea that is counter to theirs.

By doing this, we could actually have rules that would keep people from posting in threads they clearly have no business in.

(Just to be sure, I'm using the logic argument of "ad absurdum," not to be confused with sarcasm. The very idea that I don't have the right to post in certain threads versus choosing not to is ridiculous.)

Labels are stupid. I'm no more a 'casual gamer' than I am a 'tournament gamer'. And I'm not a 'painter'.

This is like the whole "fan" vs "true fan" bs you get with Star Wars, Stargate, Babylon 5, Firefly and every other rabid online fandom.

It's pointless, stupid and a complete waste of time. There's too much soap-boxed moral high grounding going on, and I think threads like this that point it out for what it is are good.

That's why they put the fan in fanatic.

The whole concept behind this thread is bewildering. While it's possible to draw relationships between certain groups, labels like 'tournament gamer', 'casual gamer', 'modeller' and so forth aren't really valid descriptions of people to my mind, any more than 'chilly' or 'unhappy' are. They're temporary descriptions at best, and as unhelpful to a discussion forum as racist or otherwise unpleasant epithets.

I certainly find the aggressive nature of some posters on Dakka a bit distasteful, and this thread offers a perfect example. Were I to lump myself in with other posters, it'd probably be as a 'casual gamer'. However, I've never felt the need to

enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments" ...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

as those type of discussions don't really interest me enough to comment, though they can be quite interesting to read.

I guess I'm laying myself bare to the accusation of getting on my own soapbox here, but so be it. In short – I don't like the aggressive and bullying turn Dakka has been taking under the assumption that 'direct and clear' equates with 'sardonic and unpleasant'. This thread highlights this unfriendly atmosphere, that has developed from the harder-edged but still inclusive feel Dakka used to have.

On a related note, I'm not really a very vocal member of the community, but I think this thread offered a good opportunity for me to point out that there's very definitely a group of lurkers or those who post seldom who find this whole tubthumping and line-drawing bewildering rather than offensive or enjoyable.

You find the same bullying on every forum.

skyth wrote:You find the same bullying on every forum.

When encountered on other forums however, it's often discouraged. Here, for good or ill, the open hostility has been cultivated by both posters, mods, and admins alike.

My previous post was an attempt to point out the silliness of dividing Warhammer players. There are so few of us in general, that to further divide a finite group is only going to cut the number of available players from the teens to the single digits. I have often played competition players, and I really do like that style of play. I've played in tournaments and had a blast, as I have had tourney players join apocalypse games and campaigns and had a blast. Interactions that occur in brick and mortar stores are very different than interactions online.

Everyone feels that what they are saying is right. face-to-face interactions require a bit more tact, so you often encounter less problems when your actually setting up a game and playing someone new. On the forums however, you don't need to be polite, you can be as snarky as you want. Because these forums are largely un-moderated (You really have to do something special to be banned or probated as far as I can tell,) the same people fight about the same topics, just changed slightly from thread to thread. I rather enjoy the wild west feel of the board, and can't resist joining the fray from time to time.

From what I've seen the Casual Gamer Mafia does plenty of bullying on other forums and it's not discouraged (In fact, at least one it's encouraged by the mods)

skyth wrote:From what I've seen the Casual Gamer Mafia does plenty of bullying on other forums and it's not discouraged (In fact, at least one it's encouraged by the mods)

that doesn't excuse anything that happens here. The dakka mods are responsible for their own house irregardless of what happens elsewhere...

I meant bullying on this forum in general, not just casual vs. tourney. The focus of Dakka is antagonistic by nature, not a lot of call for fence sitters.

You kinda do what you want and say what you want. nothing bad will happen to posters here, just the occasional thread lock. (along with the mod making fun of posters in the locked thread, usually with a "funny" meme involving a Japanese girl, for some reason.)

The mods do seem more interested in posting Japanese school girl meme pictures (where did that come from?) than actually moderating in these circumstances. Maybe they think that it is lessening tension, by making everyone laugh, but it's not moderating. Moderating is more than waggling your index finger at a group of people and going 'Naughty naughty'.

The type of bullying we get from the Casual Gaming Mafia (I'm so glad everyone likes that name! ) needs to have something done about it, but, because it's ever so 'polite', nothing will ever be done.

*transmission interrupted*

But we all know folks, that only Tournament Gamers swear. Only Tournament Gamers bully people with their power builds and their anti-Semitic rants. They're the ones filling the army lists and tactics threads with WAAC power-gaming super-builds that are designed to win games - the nerve of those racist degenerates!!!

This message brought to you by the Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Winning is for losers!'

You tournament gamers really do need to cut down on the anti-semitic rants.

H.B.M.C. wrote:But we all know folks, that only Tournament Gamers swear. Only Tournament Gamers bully people with their power builds and their anti-Semitic rants. They're the ones filling the army lists and tactics threads with WAAC power-gaming super-builds that are designed to win games - the nerve of those racist degenerates!!!

This message brought to you by the Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Winning is for losers!'

Im not a Casaul gamer nor a competitive gamer but that is some of the funniest gak, ive ever heard on the Internet.

I might just sig it.

Moderating - it ain't easy.

There is a determined effort to not have this place become draconian in nature, as far as 'our' presence goes.

Does that mean that sometimes our decisions seem odd, or not to make much sense?

Probably.

But, as has been said before, it is also up to the community as a whole to pitch in here.

So, discuss the points, and try (really!) to lay off the personal stuff.

Going back to the Op Yeah I look at the hard core lists to see what they look like but I know my place as a casual gamer. I also look at the fluffy lists the same way. Its not my decison on how you play the game. I do enjoy when I play people at my own skill level as the games are always closer. However now this is just my opinion when I play a tougher more veteran player I would like him to bring an army that is rather challenging and not easy for me to beat. I would rather play someone at a higher skill level and be stomped on then play a person at a higher skill level and have them soften up their lists to play me. The only thing I request from my opponant is to tell me how they play before hand. The only people IMHO that are jerks in this game are those who say they are bringing a casual list to the game then go and pull out there stomp you into the ground tournie list.

In the end it comes down to the quote "to each his own" you can't convince people in the end that there cheating when they aren't literally but they might only take the best items and making their list "loaded" when you tell someone to play a game of it you're saying i will play my ahrdest to beat you if the opponent isnt that good you can play a slightly weaker army if you want so it's even or maybe challenge a harder player

i am a casual player
1) i don't play that often i wish i could but i can't
2)I don't try to "load" my list i respect everyone that does. If you make the best list in the world heck ill play you, you'll prolly win in 2 turns but what the heck i tried my best. and well some of my fun is just seeing th different armies out there and meeting different people that play the hobby
3) I find it really obnoxious when you tell someone flat out," You're wrong", especially about something like this. They cant be wrong about this this is an opinion based thread are you in it to win it even though you're army won't make many friends or are you there to see some people play a game and maby paint a model or two it all comes down to preferance and what you want to do when you head to your LGS, friend's house, or whater

thanks for reading my mish mosh of junk
-deffskullz

Alpharius wrote:So, discuss the points, and try (really!) to lay off the personal stuff.

But Rule #1 seems to override that.

Agree with someone, or encourage someone in a non-polite manner - get mod-slapped.
Belittle, bully, bait and put down someone with some erudite wordsmanship - get nothing.

I'm not saying it's a double standard, I'm saying it's a lack of standards.

You can't just look at someone who's fething swearing their mother fething head off like some sort of blood fething sailor and go "Be polite" when he's expressing joy over something, but when you get a long-winded carefully worded load of nonsense personal attack from a certain member, nothing happens because, oh, well, he's being polite - and as long as you're polite at Dakka, you can get away with fething anything.

Dear sir,

It has come to my attention that, it would seem, your levels of intelligence need to be called into question. Your posts that I have quoted above seem to indicate a high level of male cow excrement, and, indeed, it would serve you well to retract such comments and mend one's less-that-intelligent ways before one finds themselves injuring themselves during simple household tasks. I don't want to imply that you are unable to ascertain the difference between your elbow and your anal sphincter, but your recent comments have really brought this into question.

I will further submit that perhaps something in your childhood might have contributed to your sudden lapse in logic, or your increased need to insult (sometimes quite harshly) those you come into contact with. In pains me dearly to see the mentally handicapped parade themselves with no shame before us when we are trying to have such a vibrant and high-brow conversation, so I beseech you good sir stop talking, lest my other learned posters be brought down to the level at which you have debased yourself already.

Again, please stop acting as if one were copulating with their own mother,

Yours Truly,
His Lordship, Commissar Calgar

Look how polite he's being there Alpha! Polite, but not very nice...

Thank you for reiterating that point H.B.M.C..

I have no problem with players who are trying to win. Problems occur when said player insults another player because that persons army does not conform to that players views. This attitude is everywhere in every game system I have played in the last 15 years. As for casual players hammering away at tourney players I have this to say.... "The door swings both ways".

Octavius but thats not just a problem in the gaming world its a major problem the world has today people trying to push their views on other cultures./religions/political views. Its just in some peoples blood. The best way I have found to counter this is by letting them get their "rant on" and spew their views so everyone can hear them and while they do this just simply walk away. Some may call this backing down but I view it as not having to put up with peoples glory quest.

Unfortunately, the argument in this thread is not a matter of casual mafia vs. tourney goers.

The argument is whether or not the casual poster even has the RIGHT to post in tournament threads.

You know, as I type this, it occurs to me that I may be the problem. Either way, I don't think this forum is for me. I'll stick to the painting sections from now on. We now return you to your regularly scheduled brawl!

True. Sorry for getting off topic but I think casual players do have a right to give positive feedback on the army. As in Helpful suggestions. Just because you are a casual player does not mean you do not know how to build a good tournament list. Same goes for the Fluff lists. I think that if you can help yeah go ahead and post if you can't then just don't say anything.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Alpharius wrote:So, discuss the points, and try (really!) to lay off the personal stuff.

But Rule #1 seems to override that.

Agree with someone, or encourage someone in a non-polite manner - get mod-slapped.
Belittle, bully, bait and put down someone with some erudite wordsmanship - get nothing.
..

I think the easiest way may be the one that I've adopted. It involves the use of the forums "ignore" function applied to anyone that belongs to a certain group that could also be referred to as "those guys".

pox wrote:
You know, as I type this, it occurs to me that I may be the problem. Either way, I don't think this forum is for me. I'll stick to the painting sections from now on. We now return you to your regularly scheduled brawl!

Brawl?

I pick MetaKnight.

Dibs on Captain Falcon.

I avoid those threads like the plague because of people like the OP. Not because of what club or group they belong to, where they come from or molest rubber chickens for fun, I just don't like that crowd one bit.

It feels like you're on the beach and some donkey-cave kicks sand into your ice cream. Why did he do that? To tell you to take that gak elsewhere.

Then you take that ice cream and plunge the pointy end into his eye socket.

It's the only way to be sure.

True, there's a reason I stick to Cornettos.

Interesting post.

In response to the OP. I think he is correct in that if you just want to post about the "cheese" factor in a list created for maximum destruction, it is wasted effort with no contributory value to what the request may have been.

Regarding tournament vs. casual gamers.... Hmmm. I guess I'd call myself casual. I like to win but I construct lists with "gimics" or things I expect to be fun. If I bring these to have a balance between wins and losses. Sometimes gimics work...other times they are wasted. I'm OK with this. The hard core tournament guy knows he's gonna chalk up the easy V most of the time.

In a "set" game. Where my opponent and I decide in advance, most know that I game casually. If he/she wants to try out tournament lists, I try to kick it up a notch by spamming stuff so they can play "hard".

If I show up to the LGS with my bag and 1500 pt army, whether a pick up game or league... it is time to expect anything. I would not complain about any list.

I also tend to think I learn more in getting wiped off the table in 3 rounds about how to "beat" a tournament list then the opposing player learns about the effectiveness of his army vs. a "soft" list. This allows me to construct better stops...etc in a tournament.

Having said all this I LOVE tournaments. I love to compete. I love to try and pull out a V regardless of my build. I enjoy tournaments that remove the "wipe" out rule. Once you remove this, it is not about how hard a list is, but if the player can effectively navigate the requirements of the scenario given their force. I've seen Land raider spam devastated by terrain and too many objectives. I've had the fortune of being able to deploy Necron warriors in full buildings with Armor 10 on all sides (essentially giving me non mobile armor). I've seen all biker ORK army lose figures (and painboyz) to difficult/dangerous terrain b/c the set of the table did not allow them to "charge" across and reap havoc without making the rolls. These "tournament" builds were at a disadvantage b/c the player showed up expecting to do something that the scenario or table didn't allow. I find it HILARIOUS when a tournament guy gets bent outta shape b/c he was beaten by "the table" or "the scenario", like these factors have absolutely nothing to do with the game we just played.

Regards,
j