Are Gork and Mork real?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Dark Lord Seanron**

Nurglitch wrote:All Gods are Chaos Gods, in 40k.

Totally...except the C'tan, who are Star Gods...

oh and the Eldar Gods (I think the Laughing God would take offence to the suggestion that he is a Chaos God, then he'd throw a pie in your face)

And Gork & Mork aren't Chaos Gods, they are far to 'pure of purpose' for that, they're just big bundles of Orky goodness

**Nurglitch**

The C'tan aren't gods, the Eldar Gods were mere daemons, and Gork and Mork are simply Orkish names for two of the Dark Powers.

**40kenthusiast**

JD actually makes a pretty good point re: WHFB. Gork has magic in WHFB, Khorne never does. It's a sign of distinction, but ultimately I'd argue that it's much like the wrath of Khaine spell.

Just a sign that Khaine/Gork are not pure Khorne. I'd say Khaine is an amalgam of Khorne/Tzeentch (cunning killing), while Gork is an amalgam of Nurgle/Khorne (happy killing).

The C'tan are energy beings. They might be stronger than any incarnation of the Warp in the materium, but have no warp power.

I read an interesting theory once that the most powerful spirit's of the Chaos Gods WERE the C'tan's warp reflection. Nightbringer's rage = Khorne's biggest piece, etc, Deceiver's cunning = Tzeentch's biggest piece, etc. Not an atrocious theory.

**Orkeosaurus**

That still doesn't explain why Khorne has a lesser emissary specifically for orks, instead of a lesser emissary specifically for humans, though.

**Dark Lord Seanron**

Nurglitch wrote:The C'tan aren't gods, the Eldar Gods were mere daemons, and Gork and Mork are simply Orkish names for two of the Dark Powers.

Eegad! The C'tan are indeed gods. Creatures of infinite talents with the power to make and unmake reality and who literally feast on suns and the living energy of lesser-beings. Sound pretty Godly to me, at least in the spectrum of the 40K universe. Plus the fact that before they were given the gifts of physical bodies, they were reffered to as Star-Gods sorta seems to suggest that they were worshipped...a bit like gods.

And the Eldar Gods simply being daemons? Eegad again! How come the Laughing God (there's that word again) is constantly able to run rings around not only the C'tan (Star Gods) but also She Who Thirsts (y'know, one of the supposed 'actual' Gods). Also, Khaine is known as the Bloody-Handed God by the Eldar.

The main qualifier of Godly status in 40K appears to be belief and worship from the sentient species in the physical universe. The War in Heaven (between the Star Gods and The Eldar Gods, with that qunatifier God attached again) occured before the proper creation of the Chaos Gods.

As for Gork and Mork, well I really do honestly doubt that they are simply Khorne and Tzeentch under different guises. There has been several examples of Orks possessed by actual Chaos (Bloodquest anyone?) to cement the fact that your regular Ork belives in a very specific non-chaos related deity (or deities). Plus, as many of the other kind fellows on this thread have pointed out, Gork and Mork are not as interfering as the other Chaos Gods, and the Gods of Chaos actually balk at the thought of taking on these awesomely Orky colossi.

You just need to say what exactly a God is in the 40K universe. Whose to say that the Chaos Gods are Gods at all, maybe they are just insanely powerful Warp Organisms and the sentient species are at such a loss to identify and catalogue them that they are reffered to as Gods (simply using your theory on why the other Gods aren't Gods on ya ^^)

Oh, and don't get me started on ol' Malal

lol

**Lord-Loss**

Im pretty sure "She who thirsts" is Slaanesh.

**Nurglitch**

The C'tan already had physical forms: they're manifestly created within and exist within the bounds of reality, and hence have no claim to godhood other than being able inspire devotion in the credulous. They're neither super-natural, nor essential to the nature of reality.

It's quite natural that a being that exists outside of space and time should be able to run rings around mere blobs of space-time, incandescent though they may be. That the Laughing God is able to evade Slaanesh as well is not unusual, as one imagines that plenty of greater daemons of Tzeentch do the same. I see no reason why an independent Daemon should not do the same, particularly if its essence is tied tightly to Tzeentch.

The idea that godhood is conferred by worship has been rubbished by the background since Slaves to Darkness, with the Dark Powers forming the four essential properties of reality, and having their influence in reality rise as their attentions are drawn.

The War in Heaven is a set of Eldar myths laid down long ago, and like all myths is mostly hooey, and an attempt to ignore the fundamental nature of the universe by suggesting that there is something somehow special and shiny about the Eldar and that they'll get theirs in the end so long as they hang in there.

**Dark Lord Seanron**

Lord-Loss wrote:Im pretty sure "She who thirsts" is Slaanesh.

I'm aware

And I dunno, this whole "The Gods of Chaos are Gods cause they is in the Warp and they are neccasary for the continuation of everything" is a bit 'Hooey'.

There was a time before the Gods of Chaos, and the universe existed quite happily, when the Warp was becalmed and they didn't exist.

There was definately a time before Slannesh, and things seem to be quite happy to exist without him/her/it as well.

In fact, the Old Ones manufactured the Krork (who would become our dearly beloved greenskins) before the Chaos Gods had manifested, thus leading me to believe that Greenskin beliefs and deities are in fact older still that the 'Big Four'. Surely then, if the 'hooey' belief that Gork and Mork are just different facets of the Chaos Gods, then it is in fact the other way around and Gork & Mork are the actual Gods, and two of the Chaos Gods are just facets of them.

I'm also finding this whole "The Eldar Gods are just daemons, ya dig?" thing a bit hard to believe. I would be most gracious if you would illuminate me as to where you sourced this bit of lore ^^

Also the explanation for the C'tan, I like your seemingly scientific explanation for a fictional creature

In that case then the Chaos Gods could be described similiarly, being creatures of emotion and anti-matter, as opposed to Gods. And the only reason that the lesser denizens of the warp and creatures of the physical reality worship them is, how did you put it, "an attempt to ignore the fundamental nature of the universe" as opposed to "they're big bloody anti-matter monsters capable of insane acts of miracle-like power"

I have no doubt that in the 40K universe the Chaos Gods ARE indeed Gods, but they are faaaaar from the onlny ones ^^

**Nurglitch**

My point is that the Warp is beyond time and space, and as such is fundamental to the nature of the material universe. As t says, when Slaaensh was born into the material universe, it had always existed, if existence is something that can be ascribed to an entity whose defining feature is that it's wholly insubstantial. See Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.7 for details.

As for the Eldar 'Gods' being gods, well of course, Slaves to Darkness pointed out that any daemon will claim to be a god if it thinks it can get away with it. It's what daemons do. Again, Slaves to Darkness points out that daemons are notorious liars in this regard.

The same goes for the C'tan: claiming to be a god and doing a few party-favours for credulous natives is a time-honoured way of obtaining authority over an alien tribe. But they are clearly not gods as they have needs, metabolize, exist for a finite amount of time, etc. Sure, they're big nasty solavores, but that's just another alien. As the inestimable Captain Kirk once asked: "What does God need with a starship?"

**Dark Lord Seanron**

Ah Kirk, now there's a God we can agree on

But that still doesn't answer the question of how you know the Eldar Gods not to be Gods? And you again fail to address the Gork and Mork issue

Surely if a God is neccasary for reality to exist, then who is to say that Gork and Mork aren't neccasary to the Greenskins reality?

**Nurglitch**

I know that the Eldar Gods are not Gods because they are specific to the Eldar. Gods are not specific to their believers. Likewise reality is something everyone shares: there's no such thing as an Ork reality. That said, since Gork and Mork are facets of the Dark Powers, it's clear that they are necessary for reality, and recognized as such by the Orkish mind.

**HiddenPower**

well i dont mean to be disrespectfull Nurglitch but the 40k universe you try to clarify is very borig.

It seems to you that the big 4 are the end all be all, if a baby burps at the edge of the galxy according to you it is feeding slaneesh because it desires food, if person A does action or has emotion B it feeds so and so. C'mon give some kind of flavor to our fictional game.

why cant there be more than one definition of a god in a fictional universe which has very subjective and very often contradictory fluff which IS the only evidence that we all use to try to make a point

let gork and mork be ork made gods please :-D

**Sanchez01**

So you are saying Gork is Khorne and Mork is Tz?

gork being their god of a good fight, and mork being their god of cunnin

**Nurglitch**

HiddenPower:

I don't take any offense to your opinion. After all, I think your take on the 40k universe is shallow and uninteresting, so I suppose it's okay if the feeling is mutual.

Sanchez01:

I did indeed make that suggestion earlier in the thread, yes.

**HiddenPower**

dang followers of tzeentch always over complicating things :-) nurglitch i think you should change your name to tzeentchlitch! tehehehehe excuse me i have way to much time on my hands

**Sanchez01**

Why are you so bent on there only being 4 gods, and all 4 of them are Chaos Gods?

**Nurglitch**

Because that's what the background states, and has stated since Rogue Trader, and it's one of the few things I still like about the official background.

**Lord-Loss**

Nurglitch wrote:Because that's what the background states, and has stated since Rogue Trader

Links? Evidence?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:Because that's what the background states, and has stated since Rogue Trader

Links? Evidence?

**Nurglitch**

Go read:

Slaves to Darkness
The Lost and the Damned
'Ere We Go, Waaargh the Ork, Freebooterz
Warhammer 40k rulebooks, Rogue Trader to 5th edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 2nd Edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3rd Edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3rd Edition v2
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Necrons

**Lord-Loss**

Nurglitch wrote:Go read:

Slaves to Darkness
The Lost and the Damned
'Ere We Go, Waaargh the Ork, Freebooterz
Warhammer 40k rulebooks, Rogue Trader to 5th edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 2nd Edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3rd Edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3rd Edition v2
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Necrons

Errr..Il just trust that your not lieing to us then

**HiddenPower**

no im preety sure that its his interpretation of what is said

man am i gonna get it for this last statement :-(

**Nurglitch**

Why? It's clearly true that my opinion is my interpretation. Now, I also think that the sources give us very good reasons for this interpretation, above and beyond other interpretations, but I don't think that we should be slaves to the official background: I'm certainly not.

In my personal 40k background there are still Space Marine Legions, Titans can take off and land on a planet's surface independently, Tyranids are very Rogue Trader - carnivorous zero-g dwelling flesh-engineering eusocial aliens, worshippers of the Great Devourer and intent on dominating other races (Rippers are larva!), and the C'tan are Necron Doomday weapons.

But it is only my opinion that the only Gods in 40k are the Dark Powers, and all other so-called 'gods' are false gods, opportunistic daemons and other puissant entities that are the focus of misguided religious excess. It's also my opinion that this previous opinion is justified by the source texts, but nonetheless both are my opinion and you're entitled to your own regardless of how I feel about it.

**Lord-Loss**

Ive always imagined Gork and Mork to be stronger then the Chaos Gods but exist in a entirely different part of the warp.

**HiddenPower**

i my personal background to 40k Biel tan,Saim han, and Ulthwe have allied permanently attaching each others craftworlds together.

they are not gonna wait till their end and are using hardcore clonning and wraith tech to recoup their numbers

I want the Eldar to bring this galaxy back into civilized order

**Orkeosaurus**

In my personal background there are no C'Tan. I don't like them

They're replaced by the highest lords of the Necrotyr race. The Old Ones probably don't exist either.

**Lord-Loss**

Orkeosaurus wrote:In my personal background there are no C'Tan. I don't like them

They're replaced by the highest lords of the Necrotyr race. The Old Ones probably don't exist either.

If the Old Ones dont exist who created your precious Orks!?!

**Nurglitch**

Wot? Orks is what pulled themselves up by their boot-lever! Every grot knows dat!

**Orkeosaurus**

Orks would be created by the Brainboys, same as now.

The relation between the Old Ones and the orks seems more vague. I think the story most implied by the fluff would be that the Brainboys were one of the Old One's creations, who then created the ork armies on their behalf. Other possibilities would be the Old Ones and Brainboys being the same, or the orks and "krork" being related more tangently (if at all).

Or them having always been there, becuz orks is made ta rool everyfing.

**Orkfantic**

The orks are the krork, in the necron codex the Deciever says he is suprised to see all of humanity and the greenskins runnin around, I think he mentions them krork or at least alludes to that, I mena the kork where craeted as a pdf in the big war and if they were all over the place that means they atleast werent sapose to spread, and man i can not spell at all.

**Orkeosaurus**

Is it the orks who are the krork, the snotlings who are the krork, all greenskins who are the krork, or are the krork something the C'Tan would recognize one of the above as being without them actually being the same?